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[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
I am actually quite glad to see both Dynasties end. I hope it ushers in a new age for Ferelden, though it will likely be won through another civil war/internal crisis. But you can't make an omlette without cracking a few eggs, and you can't move Ferelden forward without some serious growing pains and headaches.

Sometimes, instability is a very good thing, if the current situation is untenable.

That refers to controlled pain and its management that generally centralized authorities can handle (and if they are good, can minimize). Civil wars, by their nature, are much more chaotic and are more likely to spin out of control, breaking not only the system but the very idea of a Ferelden monarchy, perhaps permanently. 

We also have to remember that between Qunaris and Orlais, an unstable Ferelden will become a much easier prey. In fact if I was Orlais, I would promote instability as much as possible and play divide and conquer.
Civil wars might produce something (Rome, Islamic Caliphate), but that's generally in superpowers that are not that challenged externally.

That being said, due to the nature of the Ferelden monarchy, that instability does not have to come from the lack of an heir / dynasty. The idea that Anora dying heirless makes instability more likely is baseless. She can very well appoint a successor from another noble family that is respected (like Couslands or Guerrins). It's only much more centralised monarchies that need a dynasty to keep the state going. Ferelden doesn't need it and it has the Landsmeet that is capable of handling the situation.

It's only in a certain context that instability is much more likely, like if the ruler tries heavy handed tactics (and fails). And that can occur with or without dynasty (see civil war after King Arland Therin died).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 décembre 2010 - 12:48 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
She is like Eamon in that they are both political, but Alistair specifically says "they think they're the only ones who can fix things, and everyone else just needs to get out of their way."  He's right on the money about that.

Except we know that Anora rules via respect and not force and most the nobility hold her in great esteem.

I'd much rather have a ruler that can rule on their own, than have a ruler that is hopeless without advisors.
Both can have negative consequences, but for me an authoritarian leader is a better alternative than puppet kings controlled by chancellors (that's what weakens dynasties and it already happened with the imbecile Cailan). Because I'd much rather make the chancellor king. 

There is no evidence, other than what the extremily biased Alistair says, that Anora ignores the Landsmeet. Since she is held in great esteem, I'd think that in the contrary, she doesn't.  And considering how irrational and backward most the nobility is, not ignoring them is the best they can hope for. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 décembre 2010 - 12:41 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
She is like Eamon in that they are both political, but Alistair specifically says "they think they're the only ones who can fix things, and everyone else just needs to get out of their way."  He's right on the money about that.

Except we know that Anora rules via respect and not force and most the nobility hold her in great esteem.

I mean how she believes she is destined for the throne and it's hers and woe to anyone who tries to get in her way.  I imagine once she feels secure in power, she won't be as b*tchy.  Maybe. 

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That refers to controlled pain and its management that generally centralized authorities can handle (and if they are good, can minimize). Civil wars, by their nature, are much more chaotic and are more likely to spin out of control, breaking not only the system but the very idea of a Ferelden monarchy, perhaps permanently.

Which as far as I'm concerned, is a good thing. But then again, I do favor chaos as a tool for change and growth. Risky, yes. Very risky. But sometimes, you gotta roll the dice.

Ferelden, and by extension, greater Thedas needs some serious change. What that needed change is depends on the character or origin you play.

We also have to remember that between Qunaris and Orlais, an unstable Ferelden will become a much easier prey. In fact if I was Orlais, I would promote instability as much as possible and play divide and conquer.
Civil wars might produce something (Rome, Islamic Caliphate), but that's generally in superpowers that are not that challenged externally.

Instability has a habit of being quite contagious. Radical ideas or movements that actually have a chance of success seldom are contained within borders. Sowing instability in Ferelden is just as likely to sow instability amongst orlais as well. I can think of many real world examples where such plans have backfired and become out of control.

It is not limited to superpowers, either. The reformation, the spread of communism and it's eventual downfall, the American Civil War (which occured at a time when the US was still considered by many a backwards, unstable colony, and in comparison to the great European empires, was).

As for the qunari, they threaten all of Thedas, orlais included. But I am personally going to wait and see what light DA2 will shed on this particular situation before forming an opinion on their place in the grand scheme of things. A weak ferelden would provide them with a juicy target. However, an attempted qunari invasion of Ferelden, thus breaking the Llomeryn accords, would not go unanswered by other nations in Thedas. Given the external nature of the threat the qunari pose.

That being said, due to the nature of the Ferelden monarchy, that instability does not have to come from the lack of an heir / dynasty. The idea that Anora dying heirless makes instability more likely is baseless. She can very well appoint a successor from another noble family that is respected (like Couslands or Guerrins). It's only much more centralised monarchies that need a dynasty to keep the state going. Ferelden doesn't need it and it has the Landsmeet that is capable of handling the situation.

This I mostly agree with in theory. In Ferelden's case in a general sense. However, the lack of an heir can be used to strengthen divisions and plots. The Bannorn is constantly looking for excuses to fight. I don't think that's gonna change even if Anora or Alistair pick a successor. there are plenty of Banns who would use it to start something.

So the lack of an heir would not be the cause directly, but could potentially be a major tool used by scheming Banns to start another civil war.  These people fight over trees and what they name their dogs, after all.

It's only in a certain context that instability is much more likely, like if the ruler tries heavy handed tactics (and fails). And that can occur with or without dynasty (see civil war after King Arland Therin died).

Possibly. I still believe that the writers did leave this plot bunny hanging because they plan on more conflict in the future.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Ferelden, and by extension, greater Thedas needs some serious change. What that needed change is depends on the character or origin you play.

The OGB will bring that hopefully. At least he better.

Instability has a habit of being quite contagious. Radical ideas or movements that actually have a chance of success seldom are contained within borders. Sowing instability in Ferelden is just as likely to sow instability amongst orlais as well. I can think of many real world examples where such plans have backfired and become out of control.

They are contagious when they involve idealogies and revolutionaries, which I find highly unlikely to happen in Ferelden, or refugees, but most Fereldans go to the Free Marches. Add to that that Ferelden is relatively isolated. Instability in Ferelden is not like say, instability in Nevarra. If Orlais takes the necessary precautions, instability in Ferelden will not spread to its lands.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
It is not limited to superpowers, either. The reformation, the spread of communism and it's eventual downfall, the American Civil War (which occured at a time when the US was still considered by many a backwards, unstable colony, and in comparison to the great European empires, was).

Those examples happened in a specific context that does not apply to Ferelden. The USA was too costly an endeavour for any European power to get involved in properly (not to mention they were too busy with European matters, such as the rise of Germany and the shift in the balance of power). The Reformation involved religious matters that are not limited by borders and the fighting was primarily between States. It led to the Westphalian order that in many ways, preserved the status quo anyways. And the Russian revolution did invite mostly every power in Europe to intervene, but that's due to the idealogical nature of the Revolution and of any revolution, which won't happen in Ferelden any time soon (and if it does, it's in Orlais' best interest to destroy it in Ferelden).

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
So the lack of an heir would not be the cause directly, but could potentially be a major tool used by scheming Banns to start another civil war.  These people fight over trees and what they name their dogs, after all.

Exactly, I don't mind the heir issue being one of the reasons that led to civil war. But if the only excuse for destroying that which we saved in DA:O is "well, there is no heir", that is going to annoy me greatly.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 décembre 2010 - 03:21 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The OGB will bring that hopefully. At least he better.

Well, you are his father, and Morrigan is his mother. He better bring radical change to Thedas or he's gonna get a good spanking! And no shiny new bike for his birthday, either!

They are contagious when they involve idealogies and revolutionaries, which I find highly unlikely to happen in Ferelden, or refugees, but most Fereldans go to the Free Marches. Add to that that Ferelden is relatively isolated. Instability in Ferelden is not like say, instability in Nevarra. If Orlais takes the necessary precautions, instability in Ferelden will not spread to its lands.

Possibly. However, it is ideologies I am talking about. I am thinking primarily of the Reformation. The Reformation, in my opinion, was perhaps one of the most signifigant and important events in the history of western civilization. It affected more than just religion, it drastically led to a major upset in the balance of power in Europe, casuing major changes politicially and socially, as well set the stage for more radicialized thinking in the areas of phislophy, science, social issues, and government.

The discovery of the Sacred Ashes in ferelden, depending on how you handle it, is one exampkle of something seemingly unrelated to politics having major unintended consequences and possibility for major changes. Though the ashes themselves appear at first glance, seem to hold only religous signifigance and the potential to further strengthen the Chantry, they could, have just the opposite effect. Scholars could end up studying the ashes, and learning things about them and Andraste that could end up shaking the foundations of the Chantry to it's core, causing Thedas-wide revolution in everything as a result of a chain reaction, depending on what is discovered.

This is, of course, assuming that you preserved them, killed the dragon, and let Genitivi spread the word. Which both of us did in our HN canons. My mage preserved them but left the dragon alone.

Those examples happened in a specific context that does not apply to Ferelden. The USA was too costly an endeavour for any European power to get involved in properly (not to mention they were too busy with European matters, such as the rise of Germany and the shift in the balance of power). The Reformation involved religious matters that are not limited by borders and the fighting was primarily between States. It led to the Westphalian order that in many ways, preserved the status quo anyways. And the Russian revolution did invite mostly every power in Europe to intervene, but that's due to the idealogical nature of the Revolution and of any revolution, which won't happen in Ferelden any time soon (and if it does, it's in Orlais' best interest to destroy it in Ferelden).

My reference was to what the civil war did for the US, not the world as a whole (at least at that time). It was the major turning point for the country, because in the end, it not only ended slavery (which led to quicker industrialization and thus, development economically) but it also strengthened the Federal government and led to a more unified country as a result, with the Federal government gaining more authority and control in national and international affairs as far as the country was concerned. before that, the US was really little more than a loose confederation of states that really couldn't and wouldn't agree on much of anything, and usually trumped attempts by Washington to impose anything resembling unified law.

And though the civil war was insignifigant in the larger scheme of world affairs at the time, the results would end up being felt in the next century when America would rise as a superpower. As you well know, the consequences of conflicts is not always felt immediately, but can lead to other things.

Exactly, I don't mind the heir issue being one of the reasons that led to civil war. But if the only excuse for destroying that which we saved in DA:O is "well, there is no heir", that is going to annoy me greatly.

Total agreement here. If a ferelden civil war ends up popping up in the future, i do hope that there are all sorts of nefarious plots within plots fueling it, with the lack of an heir perhaps being a loose, convient excuse.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Possibly. However, it is ideologies I am talking about. I am thinking primarily of the Reformation.

The discovery of the Sacred Ashes in ferelden, depending on how you handle it, is one exampkle of something seemingly unrelated to politics having major unintended consequences and possibility for major changes.

This is, of course, assuming that you preserved them, killed the dragon, and let Genitivi spread the word. Which both of us did in our HN canons. My mage preserved them but left the dragon alone.

I am not sure that event would cause a huge ideological revolution tbh. I think whatever happens in DA2, apparently, will have a much larger impact. We'll see.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I am not sure that event would cause a huge ideological revolution tbh. I think whatever happens in DA2, apparently, will have a much larger impact. We'll see.

Yeah, agreed, as far as in game stuff goes. I was more speculating out of game, looking at possibilities as a whole in the grand scheme of things, lore wise. I'm not certain ferelden's possible civil war might have any major impact in the future, but the seeds for it are there, even if they don't plan on doing anything with it in the future. Kinda like the Architect in Awakenings. I've heard the developers aren't going anywhere with that, either, which is gravely disappointing. Still, it provides plenty of fuel for speculations as a whole.

The ashes if preserved and broadcasted, at the very least, elevate Ferelden's signifigance greatly in Thedas as a very important center of religon, kinda like Mecca and by extention, Saudia Arabia, for Muslims, since it is the final resting place for Mohammed. If nothing else, the Ashes would make it impossible for Ferelden to be isolated amongst the Chantric nations, since it would become the center of the most important pilgramage to Chantry believers everywhere,whether or not some major ideological or political side effect develops as a result of their discover and sharing.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
The ashes if preserved and broadcasted, at the very least, elevate Ferelden's signifigance greatly in Thedas as a very important center of religon, kinda like Mecca and by extention, Saudia Arabia, for Muslims, since it is the final resting place for Mohammed. If nothing else, the Ashes would make it impossible for Ferelden to be isolated amongst the Chantric nations, since it would become the center of the most important pilgramage to Chantry believers everywhere,whether or not some major ideological or political side effect develops as a result of their discover and sharing.

That's what I am counting on, in fact. For Ferelden to boost its economic, political and cultural standing. But I don't think it's that likely for the discovery to cause great unrest. Unless the Chantry manages to screw it up somehow.

And slight correction, the resting place of Prophet Muhammad is in Medina and it's secondary in importance to the Ka'ba in Mecca. The pilgrimage is focused on Mecca, and not the resting place of Muhammad, because a pilgrimage focused on a corpse is kind of weird (at least from a Sunni perspective). 

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
The ashes if preserved and broadcasted, at the very least, elevate Ferelden's signifigance greatly in Thedas as a very important center of religon, kinda like Mecca and by extention, Saudia Arabia, for Muslims, since it is the final resting place for Mohammed. If nothing else, the Ashes would make it impossible for Ferelden to be isolated amongst the Chantric nations, since it would become the center of the most important pilgramage to Chantry believers everywhere,whether or not some major ideological or political side effect develops as a result of their discover and sharing.

That's what I am counting on, in fact. For Ferelden to boost its economic, political and cultural standing. But I don't think it's that likely for the discovery to cause great unrest. Unless the Chantry manages to screw it up somehow.

And slight correction, the resting place of Prophet Muhammad is in Medina and it's secondary in importance to the Ka'ba in Mecca. The pilgrimage is focused on Mecca, and not the resting place of Muhammad, because a pilgrimage focused on a corpse is kind of weird (at least from a Sunni perspective). 

Ahh, gotcha. Thanks for the correction. I knew Medina was the other major holy site in Saudi Arabia, but was vague as to the reasons why (if I remember correctly, Fatima was buried there, as well as some other major figures in islam. Didn't know Mohammed's burial was also there. I know he was born there, or around the vicinity, and started recieving his visions/revelations if I remeber right).

I think, at least speculatively, the ashes could potentially screw up the Chantry, regardless of how they handle it.

let's just say, for example, a group of pilgrims, or some scholars, make the journey and study the ashes. perhaps they are initially believers in the Chantry, perhaps not. But for whatever reason, they journey there to see them and learn more about them. Hell, let's even go as far as to say that it is Chantry believing scholars like Genitivi who go to further the knowledge of the Chant of Light, and perhaps to find new ways to promote the Chantry's teachings through new insights and discoveries.

Now lets say while there, they discover something really big that contradicts currently accepted dogma or belief. Like, that Andraste was really a mage, or lost writings/teachings of Andraste that directly condemn many of the things the Chantry currently practices (or, even condemns the existance of an organized religion). Or something else. Perhaps they discover nothing major, but a particularly dedicated/devout scholar has a major epiphany in the Gauntlet, and begins to question the rightness of the current system and this leads them to start forming different ideas regarding religion. And then bringing direct challenge, sort of like a Thedas Martin Luther. Ideas and challenges that could spread.

These are situations beyond the Chantry's control, and could theorhetically be possible. I'm just pointing out that the Ashes could themselves provide a spark for major Thedas wide changes.

Hell, it could go the other way, and some major discovery could end up even cementing the Chantry's teachings and influence.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Ahh, gotcha. Thanks for the correction. I knew Medina was the other major holy site in Saudi Arabia, but was vague as to the reasons why (if I remember correctly, Fatima was buried there, as well as some other major figures in islam. Didn't know Mohammed's burial was also there. I know he was born there, or around the vicinity, and started recieving his visions/revelations if I remeber right).

Muhammad was born in Mecca and he is a Meccan. He decided to be buried in Medina for most probably political reasons, that a genius like him could not have ignored. Medina was made the capital of the Islamic polity for similar reasons (until the first civil war / fitna).

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Hell, it could go the other way, and some major discovery could end up even cementing the Chantry's teachings and influence.

I think that's more likely. Nothing in the Temple directly contradicts the Chantry version of the religion and the Guardian refers to Andraste as the bride of the Maker and not simply a mage or messenger (unlike what the Tevinter imperial chantry says). Other than the presence of Lyrium (that could easily be hidden, only dwarves can sense it),  I don't see anything groundbreaking.

But sure, the possibility is always there.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 décembre 2010 - 04:58 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


I think that's more likely. Nothing in the Temple directly contradicts the Chantry version of the religion and the Guardian refers to Andraste as the bride of the Maker and not simply a mage or messenger (unlike what the Tevinter imperial chantry says). Other than the presence of Lyrium,  I don't see anything groundbreaking.

But sure, the possibility is always there.

Neither did I, and as far we we know and see in game, the Ashes only reinforce the religion. Just really, a case of what ifs, like future, more indepth searches and excavations of the site reveal other things by accident. Sort of like the Dead Sea Scrolls, but potentially much bigger.

As far as the spirits go, that's also open to speculation. We learn in Awakenings from Justice that spirits imitate what they see in the dreams of mortals, including beliefs of places beyond the fade and the existance of a greater power, which he isn't certain where such beliefs come from, whether from first hand knowledge or the dreams of believers. The Guardian and the other spirits in the Gauntlet could be the genuine spirits of Andraste's dead followers. Or they could be more benevolent Fade spirits who were attracted to and shaped by what they saw, and assumed the roles fully.

Again, it's speculation outside of game knowledge, but given we are limited at this point in what we know, it certainly is stimulating to do so. And who knows, it might pop up in the future?

[Addai]

Modern democracy is overrated.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Addai67 wrote...

Modern democracy is overrated.

Sure it is. But it's a better system than feudalism and monarchy.

[EnforcerGREG]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


I think that's more likely. Nothing in the Temple directly contradicts the Chantry version of the religion and the Guardian refers to Andraste as the bride of the Maker and not simply a mage or messenger (unlike what the Tevinter imperial chantry says). Other than the presence of Lyrium,  I don't see anything groundbreaking.

But sure, the possibility is always there.

Neither did I, and as far we we know and see in game, the Ashes only reinforce the religion. Just really, a case of what ifs, like future, more indepth searches and excavations of the site reveal other things by accident. Sort of like the Dead Sea Scrolls, but potentially much bigger.

As far as the spirits go, that's also open to speculation. We learn in Awakenings from Justice that spirits imitate what they see in the dreams of mortals, including beliefs of places beyond the fade and the existance of a greater power, which he isn't certain where such beliefs come from, whether from first hand knowledge or the dreams of believers. The Guardian and the other spirits in the Gauntlet could be the genuine spirits of Andraste's dead followers. Or they could be more benevolent Fade spirits who were attracted to and shaped by what they saw, and assumed the roles fully.

Again, it's speculation outside of game knowledge, but given we are limited at this point in what we know, it certainly is stimulating to do so. And who knows, it might pop up in the future?

The temple is made by those who believe andraste was the bride of maker. They made the temple to reinforce the idea.

I could see the discovery having negative impact for Orlais. They thought andraste birthplae was in orlais bu it would make more sense to bury there prophet were they were born. Hoefuly leading to less bias on the chantry towards Orlais. Almost every Age has to do with the glory of Orlais. Chantry was in favour of the ocupation.

The old God child coud certanly bring change but I would wait and see what left afer Hawke.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

Modern democracy is overrated.

Indeed, but certainly better than a system where nobles fight each other over trees.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

EnforcerGREG wrote...
 The temple is made by those who believe andraste was the bride of maker. They made the temple to reinforce the idea.

Thousands of years ago. Things don't stay static for that long, and many things could have happened between now and then.

I could see the discovery having negative impact for Orlais. They thought andraste birthplae was in orlais bu it would make more sense to bury there prophet were they were born. Hoefuly leading to less bias on the chantry towards Orlais. Almost every Age has to do with the glory of Orlais. Chantry was in favour of the ocupation.

there was never any question where Andraste was born. In the codexes, which present information in the form of writing by various authors, state is is widely known all over, even in orlais, that Andraste was a Ferelden, born in Amaranthine to an Avvar tribe. There's even one, regarding ferelden, (written by Celene of orlais, of all people, I think) which states that she was a Ferelden.

orlais is currently the center of the Chantry because its first Emporer, Drakon, founded the Chantry, and made orlais the first Chantric nation. Andraste herself did not build the Chantry, she had followers and disciples who wrote down her teachings in the form of the Chant of light, and lead the rebellion against tevinter, but she herself did not found the Chantry, that came long after her death.

The old God child coud certanly bring change but I would wait and see what left afer Hawke.

I'm not certain that OGB is going to be the major instigator of change, given that the DR isn't canon, and Morrigan is up to something, regardless of whether or not you give her OGB. I think it could play a signifigant role, however, since the kid is part of some bigger, greater plan.