1079 réponses à ce sujet

[Marionetten]

HolyAvenger wrote...

People still whinging about the Carver/Bethany thing...aren't you all going to play through twice, once as a mage and once as a warrior or rogue in any case?

That's rather besides the point. People are irked because they are having the choice taken away from them. If you're a mage there is no way to rescue Bethany. You don't get to make that choice. No matter what you do, no matter how many times you reload, no matter how hard you try the story will always railroad you so that you can have a nice little Raistlin/Caramon relationship with Carver.

I don't know about the rest of you but I do not play BioWare games for the story. I play BioWare games because they enable me as the player to have an actual impact on the story. To have that taken away from me... well, that stinks. Hell, even BioWare used to think so. What happened here?

[HolyAvenger]

Marionetten wrote...
That's rather besides the point. People are irked because they are having the choice taken away from them. If you're a mage there is no way to rescue Bethany. You don't get to make that choice. No matter what you do, no matter how many times you reload, no matter how hard you try the story will always railroad you so that you can have a nice little Raistlin/Caramon relationship with Carver.

I don't know about the rest of you but I do not play BioWare games for the story. I play BioWare games because they enable me as the player to have an actual impact on the story. To have that taken away from me... well, that stinks. Hell, even BioWare used to think so. What happened here?

Umm no matter what you did, Imoen still got kidnapped by Irenicus. Yoshimo still turned traitor. Not everything in the game is controlled by the player and never has been.

[In Exile]

Marionetten wrote... so that you can have a nice little Raistlin/Caramon relationship with Carver.

Ha! I didn't think about that. It actually makes me a little excited if we can go that route with Carver.

[Maria Caliban]

HolyAvenger wrote...

...aren't you all going to play through twice, once as a mage and once as a warrior or rogue in any case?

No.

[Marionetten]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Umm no matter what you did, Imoen still got kidnapped by Irenicus. Yoshimo still turned traitor. Not everything in the game is controlled by the player and never has been.

Obviously. But I don't see how that railroading excuses the inclusion of even more railroading. Having future events be predetermined by the choice of your class is downright bizarre and I foresee a lot of people hitting their quickload buttons furiously trying to get a different result. I know I would have been one of them had I not been made aware of this.

Now, I understand why this was done and I'll readily admit that in the end it will probably make for a better story. I'm just not sure if sacrificing choice for story is worth it anymore. I still have nightmares about the mage origin and being pigeonholed with Carver because I like playing mages is not a pleasant prospect.

Modifié par Marionetten, 22 décembre 2010 - 01:28 .

[Gill Kaiser]

HolyAvenger wrote...

...aren't you all going to play through twice, once as a mage and once as a warrior or rogue in any case?

Well, I am, but the sexes are all screwed now. As I stated earlier, if I go with the choices I originally wanted I'll be stuck with two sets of same-sex siblings, and I'll feel like the dynamics are all wrong.

[Tootles FTW]

I dislike playing mages.  I was planning on going warrior for my first PT until I saw that they took away dual-wielding, and then I was working myself up to play a rogue.  However, the first sign of the apocalypse is nigh because now, apparently, I shall be playing as a mage on my fist PT just so I can save my brother.  HOW DID MY LIFE COME TO THIS, BIOWARE? 
...oh wait, I just explained it.

[Gill Kaiser]

It's like you're the Bizarro-Me.

[exoproto]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Well, I am, but the sexes are all screwed now. As I stated earlier, if I go with the choices I originally wanted I'll be stuck with two sets of same-sex siblings, and I'll feel like the dynamics are all wrong.

Sorry, what?

Hasn't it been confirmed by a dev. that your gender doesn't impact the sibling you get stuck with? It's only your class that makes a difference.

[Herr Uhl]

exoproto wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Well, I am, but the sexes are all screwed now. As I stated earlier, if I go with the choices I originally wanted I'll be stuck with two sets of same-sex siblings, and I'll feel like the dynamics are all wrong.

Sorry, what?

Hasn't it been confirmed by a dev. that your gender doesn't impact the sibling you get stuck with? It's only your class that makes a difference.

He planned a male mage and female rogue/warrior.

[Maria Caliban]

exoproto wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Well, I am, but the sexes are all screwed now. As I stated earlier, if I go with the choices I originally wanted I'll be stuck with two sets of same-sex siblings, and I'll feel like the dynamics are all wrong.

Sorry, what?

Hasn't it been confirmed by a dev. that your gender doesn't impact the sibling you get stuck with? It's only your class that makes a difference.

The 'choices he originally wanted' are female warrior/rogue and male mage.

[HolyAvenger]

Marionetten wrote...

Obviously. But I don't see how that railroading excuses the inclusion of even more railroading. Having future events be predetermined by the choice of your class is downright bizarre and I foresee a lot of people hitting their quickload buttons furiously trying to get a different result. I know I would have been one of them had I not been made aware of this.

Now, I understand why this was done and I'll readily admit that in the end it will probably make for a better story. I'm just not sure if sacrificing choice for story is worth it anymore. I still have nightmares about the mage origin and being pigeonholed with Carver because I like playing mages is not a pleasant prospect.

I see your point. The other thing that we're not talking about here is gameplay balance. Clearly the devs have decided that early section of the game needs at least one melee'r and one mage (similar to who would join you for the Tower of Ishal depending on your class). They've integrated gameplay and story choice into one, and I for one am more excited about the two divergent paths present to the player here (especially with the lack of Origin stories to lower replayability in any case).

[Drasanil]

Atakuma wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

People still whinging about the Carver/Bethany thing...aren't you all going to play through twice, once as a mage and once as a warrior or rogue in any case?

I will, but the majority of people wont even finish their first playthrough.

Honestly, I doubt that said majority* would even care either way or actually frequent the boards and know this is an issue... so uhm no loss really

Maria Caliban wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

...aren't you all going to play through twice, once as a mage and once as a warrior or rogue in any case?

No.

Well that's kind of your own fault/problem then. No one is forcing you not to have a second play through to get the other sibling.



*I have no idea where you got that a majority of people who buy the game won;t even finish it.

[Maria Caliban]

Drasanil wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

...aren't you all going to play through twice, once as a mage and once as a warrior or rogue in any case?

No.

Well that's kind of your own fault/problem then. No one is forcing you not to have a second play through to get the other sibling.

*I have no idea where you got that a majority of people who buy the game won;t even finish it.

I didn't say that I would only be playing once. I have no idea.

At the same time, I'm going to assume I'll only play once and answer, "Really? Playing once is my choice? Thank you for informing me of this. I had no idea. Was playing a female PC and so not being able to romance Morrigan also 'my fault?' What about not playing through the dwarven noble origin? I am confused and need your guidance!"

Actually, that's a bit ****y of me and your original post doesn't merit that response. Yes, I realize that only playing through once is my choice, and am comfortable with missing content because of it. I think it's good of the developer to reward people for playing the game more than once with alternate content.

Holy Avenger asked if all the people who disliked the idea of sibling death would be playing twice. The answer to that is 'no.'

How do I know?

The majority of the people who bought Dragon Age: Origins didn't finish it. David has said so. BioWare knows this because of the metric data from the games themselves. You might not realize it, but as you play, your character and game data is uploaded to the server anonymously.

They did the same for Mass Effect 2. Another game where only 50% of people finished the game.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 22 décembre 2010 - 02:45 .

[Apollo Starflare]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

namedforthemoon wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

druplesnubb wrote...

What I don't get is why you can'y just have both survive. Then you get more party members to choose from which leads to more class combinations andmore people get to experience both siblings.

in the preview it doesn't say that one of the siblings MUST die, just that your party at the prologue section is definitely dependent on hawke's class.
at this point we don't even know if either of the siblings will continue to journey with you as permanent companions, if both can be saved or that both can be killed.

If the siblings don't join you as permanent companions, then that could open the door for other companions. Like a wider variety of companions to choose from. I'd be happy with that.

that's what i'm guessing.

i'm thinking carver and bethany are the equivalent of the soldier and mage allies we had in the tower of ishal for the duration of the prologue section (blightlands and beginning of kirkwall) 

I just don't see why they would have Carver getting squashed in the old demo if that were the case. I hope you are right though, it would mean whichever we don't 'get' could still play a guaranteed important role in the main plot (as they would always be alive). Although I do wonder if Bioware might have taken the time to write it so that if you are a Mage you take Bethany's role in the plot, basically meaning that she can play a key role despite being optional. Likewise for Carv.

[Drasanil]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Holy Avenger asked if all the people who disliked the idea of sibling death would be playing twice. The answer to that is 'no.' I indecently also answered the question I suspect he meant, which was whether most of them would play through twice.

Odds are said people don't frequent the forums any ways and don't even know/care about the mechanic or which sibling they get, so the metagame concerns behind the decision are irrelevant to them and that is if they even know such a different outcome is possible period. Most of the people here on the other hand and who know/care about this issue, or the more "hardcore" fan base and will likely have two+ play throughs none the less.

The majority of the people who bought Dragon Age: Origins didn't finish it. David has said so. BioWare knows this because of the metric data from the games themselves. You might not realize it, but as you play, your character and game data is uploaded to the server anonymously.

They did the same for Mass Effect 2. Another game where only 50% of people finished the game.

How are these stats collected though? Is it based on the number of "character" uploads they recieve, or the first game, or forum accounts, and what about people who don't register their games and/or buy second hand later on?

I finished the game the on the first run, then made a whole bunch of characters that essentially went no where before finishing the game a couple of more times. So depending on how they collect the data it could skew the statistics, I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who's had a bunch of false start PCs and finished the game multiple times.

[Maria Caliban]

scyphozoa wrote...

Yeah, I don't like to think that metric data is too influential on game design, but when you see only ~50% of your players are reaching endgame, you have to seriously consider that. I think its odd that DAO and ME2 have similar completion rates, I would have expected ME2 to be much higher given that its a bit shorter. I wonder if DA2 will break 50% completion rate and I wonder which Bioware game has the highest completion rate.

It might be that there's a group of gamers who'd be willing to finish a game, whether it be 20 hours or 80 hours. I wouldn't be surprised if more people did finish ME 2 than DA:O.

Unfortunately, the data is only for the last two games, so we'll never know. I'd guess Knight of the Old Republic. It was accessible, based on a very popular franchise, and not that long.

[Ziggeh]

Drasanil wrote...

I finished the game the on the first run, then made a whole bunch of characters that essentially went no where before finishing the game a couple of more times. So depending on how they collect the data it could skew the statistics, I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who's had a bunch of false start PCs and finished the game multiple times.

They must filter out things like that, otherwise the statistics would be really meaningless. For that stat specifically I imagine it's "accounts which finished" rather than "characters who finished".

[Maria Caliban]

Drasanil wrote...

Odds are said people don't frequent the forums any ways and don't even know/care about the mechanic or which sibling they get, so the metagame concerns behind the decision are irrelevant to them and that is if they even know such a different outcome is possible period. Most of the people here on the other hand and who know/care about this issue, or the more "hardcore" fan base and will likely have two+ play throughs none the less.

Well, if you don't have data, you're just guessing. I could just as easily say that many of the "hardcore" fans aren't going to buy Dragon Age 2. I've heard about a dozen say so. Or, given that the majority of people don't finish, finishing a game is "hardcore" enough for the average forum goer.

How are these stats collected though? Is it based on the number of "character" uploads they recieve, or the first game, or forum accounts, and what about people who don't register their games and/or buy second hand later on?

All copies of the game upload data unless the you turn off the upload. I have no idea how it handles pirated/cracked copies.

I finished the game the on the first run, then made a whole bunch of characters that essentially went no where before finishing the game a couple of more times.

Yes, if you're playing on the same computer, even if you're not logged in, it will recognize that as a single person playing. If your friend hopped on your computer and played the game, it would be part of your data.

[Drasanil]

ziggehunderslash wrote...
They must should filter out things like that, otherwise the statistics would be really meaningless. For that stat specifically I imagine it's "accounts which finished" rather than "characters who finished".

 Indeed. However, based on recent performances, I would never accuse them of having a competent marketing department

[Drasanil]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Well, if you don't have data, you're just guessing. I could just as easily say that many of the "hardcore" fans aren't going to buy Dragon Age 2. I've heard about a dozen say so. Or, given that the majority of people don't finish, finishing a game is "hardcore" enough for the average forum goer.

True I can't prove it, it is a none the less reasonnable guess given that the majority of players don't frequent the forums in the first place that those who do tend to be either die-hard fans or hardcore haters. Which lends itself to either one extreme or the other ie: either you loved the game enough to play mutiple times or you hated it so much you didn't bother finishing it and now every one must know how horrible it is.

Yes, I realise I'm over simplifying a bit and there are likely to be die-hard fans who only finished the game once and such.

[Hawksblud]

Drasanil wrote...

 Indeed. However, based on recent performances, I would never accuse them of having a competent marketing department

Bioware's marketing department is the reason that I have bought each title produced, played each of their games between two and six times, am currently on this forum instead of studying for my final exam tomorrow. I think they've got their **** pretty much down.

[SirOccam]

druplesnubb wrote...

What I don't get is why you can'y just have both survive. Then you get more party members to choose from which leads to more class combinations andmore people get to experience both siblings.

Because in this story, a sibling dies.

Marionetten wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

People still whinging about the Carver/Bethany thing...aren't you all going to play through twice, once as a mage and once as a warrior or rogue in any case?

That's rather besides the point. People are irked because they are having the choice taken away from them. If you're a mage there is no way to rescue Bethany. You don't get to make that choice. No matter what you do, no matter how many times you reload, no matter how hard you try the story will always railroad you so that you can have a nice little Raistlin/Caramon relationship with Carver.

I don't know about the rest of you but I do not play BioWare games for the story. I play BioWare games because they enable me as the player to have an actual impact on the story. To have that taken away from me... well, that stinks. Hell, even BioWare used to think so. What happened here?

Are they also "taking away" your ability to be a Qunari? How about your ability to fly? Or to be a mage/rogue hybrid? Are they taking all of those choices away? Because by that logic, they're taking away an infinite number of things.

There's no game that is going to allow you to do anything you want. For that you have to stick to PnP, where your options are limited only by your imagination (and your DM's indulgence). This is a cRPG, where you have technological limitations, but more importantly--and more relevantly--it is a scripted story in which writers have determined that certain things will happen and certain things won't. As I said to druplesnubb, in this story, a sibling dies. It doesn't really matter if you wanted to keep both of them alive, because that possibility was never on the table.

As I've said elsewhere, I'd have liked to spare Loghain but remain BFFs with Alistair in DAO. The fact that that wasn't possible doesn't indicate that BioWare did something wrong. It was just the story they wanted to tell. If you have a problem with a sibling dying, that's fine (though you might as well have a problem with not being able to join the Darkspawn in DAO), but it's not like they're intruding on your freedoms or anything--or at least no more than any scripted story does, by definition.

Modifié par SirOccam, 22 décembre 2010 - 03:19 .

[Ziggeh]

Drasanil wrote...

Indeed. However, based on recent performances, I would never accuse them of having a competent marketing department

Oh, I don't know. Some of it has been really cunning. The fenris thing was excellent.