1079 réponses à ce sujet

[Ziggeh]

The Masked Rog wrote...
A atomic bomb of misinformation just hit the forum!

I especially liked the bit were he asked Mike to support the statement about people hating the silent protagonist, which makes no attempt at quantification, and then quickly stated that "most sane people" disliked the dialogue wheel.

[Gill Kaiser]

Sorry Veilinn, I stopped reading after "for all intensive purposes."

[Piecake]

Xewaka wrote...

Piecake wrote...

Well, to be honest, I really can't see
any company making a Dwarf PC only game. I just can't imagine that it
would sell nearly as well, so why would any company do that? *insert my
obligatory demand for future multiple PC game here*

That would require a much more open story than what David Gaider and his crew wanted for DA2. And I still believe an infiltration game on the deep roads playing as Sigrun (think Arkham Asylum) would be awesome and highly sellable.

Do you mean that multiple PCs would require a much more open story?  I don't agree with that, i think it t really depends on how you exectute/organize the narrative.  Heck, Suikoden 3 has multiple PCs, and I definitely wouldnt describe JRPG stories as open.

If you are interested in the structure of Suikoden 3 and how you can fit Bioware's choice/consequence dyanic into that game's narrative structure you can check out my posts on here. 

http://social.biowar...index/5148700/5

I dont think i would describe that as having a much more open story, just a story with a ton of branches (perhaps that is what you meant by open story though).  I honestly hope that DA2 has a story with a lot more branches because I think that could work quite well with a framed narrative. 

Modifié par Piecake, 23 décembre 2010 - 01:08 .

[Piecake]

Ziggeh wrote...

Piecake wrote...

Well, to be honest, I really can't see any company making a Dwarf PC only game.

It occurs that the reason for this is the same reason people would ask for one. Bear with me here, I might make sense of that statement in a minute.

People want to play dwarves and elves on the basis that they have preconceived notions of what that means, sure it is inherently different to humans, but it is different in specific ways. People aren't (unless I'm mistaken) asking to be a character who happens to be 4'3" or has pointy ears, they're asking to "dwarfy" or "elfy" in a fairly tolkien sense of the word. (Reminds me, must see where that conversation about elf romances went after I went to bed.)

In order to market that concept, you would pretty much have to generate a complete stereotype. Sure, you could play with it a little, but unless your dwarf protagonist was a heavy drinking beard wielder, ideally with a scottish accent, much of it's audience are going to take the view that this is not a "real dwarf", no matter how much you insist that dwarves don't all need to be this way. The preconcieved notions would severely limit the protagonist's personality because any marketing that requires an explanation is instant failure.

So, are you saying that another reason why a company wouldnt make a dwarf pc only game is because a personalized dwarf story that doesnt fit the stereotypical dwarf is not what those pro-dwarf people want as well? 

If not, I am quite confused. 

[Ziggeh]

Piecake wrote...

So, are you saying that another reason why a company wouldnt make a dwarf pc only game is because a personalized dwarf story that doesnt fit the stereotypical dwarf is not what those pro-dwarf people want as well? 

If not, I am quite confused. 

I'm suprised it made as much sense as it did

Not so much what the pro-dwarf people want, but how the.....I'm going to have to use a phrase like "casual gamer" or something here, would see it. If you're saying "This is a dwarfy game" then it's going to have to be pretty damn dwarfy in order to get the point across quickly.

Not that humans are immune to the force of preconception: the game isn't going to let you make Rincewind, Gaius Baltar or Arnold J. Rimmer, you're stuck with one form of badass hero type or another, but theres a decent amount of room to move within that. Someone who is really very dwarf like indeed pretty much has a pre set personality.

Elves slightly less so, probably due to a certain amount of fetishisation, they get explored more so the preconceptions tend to be a little looser.

[Piecake]

Well, all I know, is if I was put in charge of making a fantasy rpg, I would definitely not make the game dwarf PC only. It just sounds like a stupid business decision, and I can't imagine I would be put in charge of making a game after that if I made such a decision and the game does not meet expectations

[otis0310]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I think you, like many laymen in our community, don't really know what role the marketing department plays in the game development process.

Nice double talk and sarcasm.  I was not trying to predict the future however, I leave that to Nostradamus, I was trying to voice a concern.  But will you be pretty when you are 75? I don't know, are you pretty now? If not, you might be prettier then, who knows?

You would also be a good politician, skirting the issues with sarcasm.  Too bad you never addressed the concern though. 

A simple "We chose human because it made sense in this particular story, not as an overall franchise decision.  Maybe the next will be elven or dwarven, who knows? Depends on the story." Would suffice, I really wish you would be more concise. 

If this is what you wanted to say, maybe you should say so, if not then maybe you can say so.

Modifié par otis0310, 23 décembre 2010 - 01:56 .

[David Gaider]

otis0310 wrote...
As for this exact quote, maybe you can educate us laymen?  Just one paragraph will do, thanks.

Educate yourself. We don't respond well to snideness.

[otis0310]

David Gaider wrote...

otis0310 wrote...
As for this exact quote, maybe you can educate us laymen?  Just one paragraph will do, thanks.

Educate yourself. We don't respond well to snideness.

Neither do I, and I beleive Stan Woo was doing just that.  Maybe I was not articulate in my concern, but I still do not like the attitude.

Modifié par otis0310, 23 décembre 2010 - 01:58 .

[David Gaider]

otis0310 wrote...
Neither do I, and I beleive Stan Woo was doing just that.  Maybe I was not articulate in my concern, but I still do not like the attitude.

And I imagine he didn't like yours. Congratulations. Even so, I doubt it's a good way to get answers to your questions.

[Maria Caliban]

otis0310 wrote...

A simple "We chose human because it made sense in this particular story, not as an overall franchise decision.  Maybe the next will be elven or dwarven, who knows? Depends on the story." Would suffice, I really wish you would be more concise. 

David has said this previously.

[Dagiz]

Maria Caliban wrote...

otis0310 wrote...

A simple "We chose human because it made sense in this particular story, not as an overall franchise decision.  Maybe the next will be elven or dwarven, who knows? Depends on the story." Would suffice, I really wish you would be more concise. 

David has said this previously.

This.  Been stated in several other threads. 

Winter Wraith wrote...

shepard_lives wrote...

Veilinn wrote...

*snip*

Mother of God.

If ever a post was born for the reply: TL:DR.

Oh hell yeah.

David Gaider wrote...

otis0310 wrote...
Neither
do I, and I beleive Stan Woo was doing just that.  Maybe I was not
articulate in my concern, but I still do not like the attitude.

And I imagine he didn't like yours. Congratulations. Even so, I doubt it's a good way to get answers to your questions.

Can I buy you a beer?  Or two?  Or three?  I'll send it to the office.  Tell me what you like.  I'll send it. 

Modifié par Dagiz, 23 décembre 2010 - 02:35 .

[andar91]

He likes the tears of fans. This, too, has been stated in many threads.

[otis0310]

Maria Caliban wrote...

otis0310 wrote...

A simple "We chose human because it made sense in this particular story, not as an overall franchise decision.  Maybe the next will be elven or dwarven, who knows? Depends on the story." Would suffice, I really wish you would be more concise. 

David has said this previously.

Thank you Maria, I never saw that thread, or that answer.  But why didn't Stan Woo just say that nicely rather than that snide crap about predicting the future or whether or not he'll be pretty at 75?  There is no excuse for that, and then Gaider get's on my case for being snide back to him, as if he's defending Stanley's statement.
 
I'm sorry, this put me in foul mood.

[Leonia]

"Treat others as you wish to be treated."

[Addai]

Ziggeh wrote...

The Masked Rog wrote...
A atomic bomb of misinformation just hit the forum!

I especially liked the bit were he asked Mike to support the statement about people hating the silent protagonist, which makes no attempt at quantification, and then quickly stated that "most sane people" disliked the dialogue wheel.

Weeell, even though the wall of text post was... erm, interesting... it is a good point.  That statement really sucked.  And in the dev diary they indicated that they had decided on the dialogue wheel and PC VO very early in DA2 development and before Origins came out, so either I got the wrong impression there, or Mr. Laidlaw is clairvoyant.  And again, it's dismaying to see the devs dis the game so badly.  I know they've said they're their own worst critics, but, guys- come on.

Then there are all those people who hate the silent protagonist and who are buying Fallout in droves.

Modifié par Addai67, 23 décembre 2010 - 03:39 .

[Atakuma]

Addai67 wrote...

Then there are all those people who hate the silent protagonist and who are buying Fallout in droves.

But there you're assuming that the silent protaganist has any bearing on why people baught Fallout.

[In Exile]

Atakuma wrote...

But there you're assuming that the silent protaganist has any bearing on why people baught Fallout.

Right. After all, people bought DA:O in droves too.

[Addai]

Atakuma wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Then there are all those people who hate the silent protagonist and who are buying Fallout in droves.

But there you're assuming that the silent protaganist has any bearing on why people baught Fallout.

It is obviously not hindering them.  So, where's all the hate?

I get that some people like it.  I can even get that the devs like it better so they want to make their game that way.  But dissing your own game and at least a portion of the fanbase to sell the new game, that seems counter-productive to me.  Insulting, even.  And the screechy poster was right that it was just thrown out there with nothing to support it.

[John Epler]

While I'm not going to comment on either the silent protagonist issue or Fallout 3's popularity (and the reasons for that popularity), I've purchased and loved many a game with features I didn't really like. So to say 'well this game has X feature and sold well so obviously people don't really dislike it' isn't really a compelling argument. Sometimes, the positives outweigh the negatives.

Again, not really commenting on this specific instance, but I don't feel the logic is really that sound there.

Modifié par JohnEpler, 23 décembre 2010 - 03:54 .

[Ziggeh]

Addai67 wrote...
 And the screechy poster was right that it was just thrown out there with nothing to support it.

It didn't need anything to support it, people did hate it. There are no quantities involved in that statement. If more than two people expressed dislike, it's entirely accurate, even if implies a more general sensation.

And I expressed dislike, so we're half way there.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 23 décembre 2010 - 03:55 .

[Piecake]

Addai67 wrote...


It is obviously not hindering them.  So, where's all the hate?

I get that some people like it.  I can even get that the devs like it better so they want to make their game that way.  But dissing your own game and at least a portion of the fanbase to sell the new game, that seems counter-productive to me.  Insulting, even.  And the screechy poster was right that it was just thrown out there with nothing to support it.

How is saying that "People generally hated the silent protaganist" insulting to the people who liked that feature?

[John Epler]

Piecake wrote...

Addai67 wrote...


It is obviously not hindering them.  So, where's all the hate?

I get that some people like it.  I can even get that the devs like it better so they want to make their game that way.  But dissing your own game and at least a portion of the fanbase to sell the new game, that seems counter-productive to me.  Insulting, even.  And the screechy poster was right that it was just thrown out there with nothing to support it.

How is saying that "People generally hated the silent protaganist" insulting to the people who liked that feature?

That would be the other part I'm curious about. I can guarantee Mike meant nothing of the sort by that statement, and while I'm always one to allow for misinterpretation, I'm really not certain how this interpretation was arrived at.

If Mike said 'people generally hate pizza with anchovies, jalapenos and italian sausage with spicy tomato sauce on multigrain flat bread', he'd probably be correct. Even though I find that combination to be delicious, I wouldn't be insulted that he said people generally hated it.

Maybe I shouldn't post analogies before I've eaten dinner.

[Dagiz]

JohnEpler wrote...

Piecake wrote...

Addai67 wrote...


It is obviously not hindering them.  So, where's all the hate?

I get that some people like it.  I can even get that the devs like it better so they want to make their game that way.  But dissing your own game and at least a portion of the fanbase to sell the new game, that seems counter-productive to me.  Insulting, even.  And the screechy poster was right that it was just thrown out there with nothing to support it.

How is saying that "People generally hated the silent protaganist" insulting to the people who liked that feature?

That would be the other part I'm curious about. I can guarantee Mike meant nothing of the sort by that statement, and while I'm always one to allow for misinterpretation, I'm really not certain how this interpretation was arrived at.

If Mike said 'people generally hate pizza with anchovies, jalapenos and italian sausage with spicy tomato sauce on multigrain flat bread', he'd probably be correct. Even though I find that combination to be delicious, I wouldn't be insulted that he said people generally hated it.

Maybe I shouldn't post analogies before I've eaten dinner.

Great, now I'm hungry.  That all sounds good except for the anchovies.  Replace with olives and you have a deal.

[Leonia]

Now I'm hungry.

I sort of cringed when I read that comment from Mike, not because I took offense, but because I *knew* people on the forums would react this way to it. Sometimes people only hear what they want to hear.

Modifié par leonia42, 23 décembre 2010 - 04:04 .