1079 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Atakuma wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
 Nobody but Bethesda is on the Island of Silent PCs anymore. 

That is because bethesda aren't interested in cinematics or even story for that matter.

Wow, that's quite a statement.  So that whole Liberty Prime thing isn't cinematic to you?

And it's nonsense to say their games don't include storytelling, just because the main story line is not as important as the smaller stories within the open world.

[Drasanil]

David Gaider wrote...
Fair enough. Personally I see nothing intrinsically amazing about a non-human character-- beyond the fact that some people are apparently so jaded they'll long for something different just for the sake of it being different... even if that difference is only superficial. I can understand that desire, but I can't respect it. Sorry.

It's probably my early exposure to Tolkien and WFRP, mythical races always seemed just more appopriate in a fantasy settings while humans just served as relatable window dressing and too down to earth. In Sci-fi I'm the other way around and can't really stand aliens most of the time, Star Trek really irks me especially when dealing with non-cooperative xenos while the Federation has the upper hand... why don't they just fire all guns blazing or call down exterminatus

[DarthCaine]

My problem isn't with the voiced protagonist, in fact I much prefer a voiced protagonist. My problem is with the paraphrasing. Full text with a voiced protagonist has worked in The Witcher, Deus Ex and most adventure games and I don't remember anyone complaining about it, so why the heck does BioWare do the stupid paraphrasing.

I want to know EXACTLY what my character will say. For example, in the scene where Carver dies, I've no idea whether the sarcastic option will make Hawke look like an insensitive jerk.

Hell, keep your crappy paraphrasing, but give us a middle ground, like in Deus Ex: Human Revolution where there's both full text and paraphrasing.

Modifié par DarthCaine, 23 décembre 2010 - 05:14 .

[Leonia]

In general, I prefer to play half-elves or elves in games where I have the option to play different races. I base that preference on the lore that goes along with those races because generally they are either the "underdog" race or the "not in touch with everyone else" sort of group. I like that. It's not because they are elves that makes them interesting, it's the background and the lore that shapes them that makes them interesting.

But I wouldn't for a moment suggest that a human can't have a background  to my liking because they are human. Race doesn't dictate to me what a character can and cannot be (unless the lore says so). Humans are just as diverse as any other group and all those other groups are really just humans with different features (and of course they aren't called humans any more to distinguish them from that other group).

The story of DA 2 is about Hawke, Hawke is a human. It wouldn't make sense if Hawke could be any race because his race determines where he comes from and his upbringing and his views on life and what not. The writers wanted Hawke to be a certain way, he's a "predetermined" character somewhat. Sure they give us the freedom to shape him and to experience his story in the way we want to, but we must do it within their parametres.

I think maybe that's what bothers people, that the illusion of choice is being taken away. It doesn't matter so much that Hawke is a human, people are really hung up on the single origin concept. I don't buy the argument that humans aren't as interesting as any other race simply because of being human. Every individual is uinque, regardless of their race.

Modifié par leonia42, 23 décembre 2010 - 05:14 .

[Ziggeh]

Addai67 wrote...

Humans are more dull to me, too

"A blank sheet is more dull than one with "elf" written on it" is a decent analogy of how I see it. If you assume neither has a personality beyond fantasy racial expectations, then yes, elves have have more applicable adjectives, but I don't think you can really look at them that way.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 23 décembre 2010 - 05:13 .

[David Gaider]

DarthCaine wrote...
Hell, keep your crappy paraphrasing, but give us a middle ground, like in Deus Ex: Human Revolution where there's both full text and paraphrasing.

Indeed, I'm interested to see how that looks when Deux Ex releases, as well as how it's received. I know some people like the idea of such a feature, but none of us really knows how it will play out in the actual game or if the Deus Ex team themselves will think it was worth the effort it took to implement.

[Ziggeh]

DarthCaine wrote...

For example, in the scene where Carver dies, I've no idea whether the sarcastic option will make Hawke look like an insensitive jerk.

Is there any way it could not?

[Addai]

David Gaider wrote...

Fair enough. Personally I see nothing intrinsically amazing about a non-human character-- beyond the fact that some people are apparently so jaded they'll long for something different just for the sake of it being different... even if that difference is only superficial. I can understand that desire, but I can't respect it. Sorry.

Jaded??  People play games, or read stories, in order to put themselves in another world and in other shoes.  Especially fantasy and sci fi. 

To me, the story of an elf is a chance to explore essentially human themes- love, loss, betrayal, all that good stuff- from a different perspective.  I don't even care about the pointy ears, except that the physical differences can underline the social and political and historical drama.  I get the sense that in DA2, mages will take this place, and that's fine I guess.  I do hope that in the future we get the chance to play a non-human PC again.

Modifié par Addai67, 23 décembre 2010 - 05:17 .

[Maria Caliban]

I was fine with silent protagonists until Dead Space. Here is a man undergoing incredible horror. His friends are dying around him, he's trapped in a living nightmare, and desperately searching for the woman that he loves in the middle of it.

And he's a brick. He walks, fires his gun, and solves puzzles, but there's not a single drop of humanity within him.

A year later, I played Dragon Age: Origins. Here's this world with wonderfully realistic and rich characters, and in the center of the story is a character that never smiles. The Warden never laughs, never weeps, never seems angry or upset.

And the more emotional and more dramatic the scene, the worse it seems to me.

Look at the scene where the Warden kills Connor. Isodole comes off as desperate and afraid. The Warden looks like she might have a mild case of gas.

On a less serious note, the sex scenes.



Whenever I see this image, I laugh. He looks like he's slightly pissed.

[HolyJellyfish]

^ My tea is now on my computer screen. Thanks.

Anyways, I agree. Silent NPCs are outdated. The console & PC systems are now stronger and more powerful than ever before. Videogames are taking an almost cinematic quality these days. Unless the NPC is silent for a purpose, it is a model that had its purpose in an age where voice overs were non existent.

now they are the norm

Modifié par HolyJellyfish, 23 décembre 2010 - 05:22 .

[Dagiz]

Drasanil wrote...

Dagiz wrote...
Alright, but can you accept the fact that for this paticular aspect of the game, this part of the story that we are going through that it is necssary?  That the only way the story works here in this particular installement is if the protagonist is human? 

No I don't accept that it is necessary, that's the basic premise of my argument, it may work best with a human PC which is fine. I doubt it's strictly necessary, we know how will meet his extended family in Kirkwall and that they're human, that's cool but with a bit of shoe-horning it could be made to work with an elf or a dwarf. Your noble human uncle, could actually be just your noble human half-uncle if you're an elf buy way of your grandmother and his father's "noble priviledge", while a dwarf can't be a mage he could still be adopted or what ever. It's not perfect but it's still better than having no option, at least as far as I'm concerned.

The bolded part is what I feel is the important part.  You are not making the game.  They are.  This is their vision.  there is a choice to be had here.  Either you can like it or you don't.  Telling them how they could make the game better to fit what you want to see may in fact lead someone else to bemoan and say that your vision of what the game should be like is not the right way and in fact you are wrong because of X,Y or Z.

There a lot of if's in your statement and hypotheticals.  You didn't write the story.  If it was our story and you were the one who wrote it and it was changed from what you had originally written, I could see your points.  That's not the case, so really, this opinion and arguement that it's not necessary...well, there's not much to it from my perspective.

That is what I  see a lot of arguing over nothing.  It's been stated time and time again that for this installment, the main character is human.  Just like if you read a book, the main character is one race.  You don't get to pick and choose what race you are.

A book isn't an RPG or a video game. It's more constrained in some ways and less so in others.

However there are options out there where its almost as if you are playing an RPG.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorcery!

or

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choose_Your_Own_Adventure

In every one of these cases you get to decide the direction of the story..what happens, when it happens and how it happens within in a certian set of parameters. 

Now you can say that is something that you don't want and that is totally acceptable and I can certain see that.  But to go to the extent that you and others are going to basically bash bioware for their decisions...yeah, I don't get it.

leonia42 wrote...
You don't know Hawke yet, how do you know you won't care about him? His race shouldn't affect his level of "interestingness" (Somehow I am reminded of the debate over non-humans as romance options).

I think I'm old enough to know my own preferences thanks. No matter how much I like a given story or what not I simply can't stand being forced to play a human in a a western RPG, I got past Act II in the Witcher and simply stopped caring, I never bothered with Two Worlds past the first few hours. Conversly I can't stand playing aliens, or even being tolerate and/or understanding if they're the least bit annoying, in Sci-fi stuff for some reason... must be my exposure to 40k and GRIMDARK. 

And that is you and your preferences.  I already have stated that you are entitled to your opinion.  and to reiterate and repeat, to go the extent that you and others are of telling bioware they got it all wrong, well, that is only in your eyes. 


edited for clarity because apparently one glass of wine has a larger affect than it used to

Modifié par Dagiz, 23 décembre 2010 - 05:25 .

[Leonia]

Totally agree, Maria, I am really looking forward to my character actually expressing herself this time around. I always got jealous of the NPCs with their facial expressions and body language. They were always more realistic than my own bloody character. From what we've heard on DA 2, this seems to be getting addressed (not just through having a voice, but through cinematics as well) so I am pretty happy about that.

I don't mind having a silent protagonist in games (heck most of the RPGs I grew up on and love have silent protagonists)  where I am not supposed to feel too connected to the character (usually where the character is completely predetermined and I can't control anything about them anyway) but I am glad that with the engaging story of DA 2 that we've been promised that our characters will really feel like they are a part of it instead of being a silent observer.

Modifié par leonia42, 23 décembre 2010 - 05:24 .

[Atakuma]

Off topic but I am glad Isaac is getting a voice in Dead space 2. He was more tolerable to me than the warden because you never had to see his face.

Modifié par Atakuma, 23 décembre 2010 - 05:27 .

[Ziggeh]

DarthCaine wrote...
My problem is with the paraphrasing. Full text with a voiced protagonist has worked in The Witcher, Deus Ex and most adventure games and I don't remember anyone complaining about it, so why the heck does BioWare do the stupid paraphrasing.

I think full text is problematic myself. I think it's adverse to the cinematics, to read the full sentence, and then have it read slowly back to you. It's not new information, it's redundant.

I can understand that people feel a level of control is missing without the exact phrasing, but I tend to more interested in the effect than the cause, (Oddly, this is the polar opposite of how I write, which is a compulsive and arcane process, where I'll often do things like render sentences unreadable to raise the level of alliteration) and so am not applying the same value to that control others clearly do.

[DarthCaine]

Atakuma wrote...

Off topic but I am glad Isaac is getting a voice in Dead space 2. He was more tolerable to me than the warden because you never had to see his face.

I think you see it in the opening of Dead Space 1.

Anyway, I think it's kinda stupid for him to develop a voice just now.

[Atakuma]

DarthCaine wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Off topic but I am glad Isaac is getting a voice in Dead space 2. He was more tolerable to me than the warden because you never had to see his face.

I think you see it in the opening of Dead Space 1.

Anyway, I think it's kinda stupid for him to develop a voice just now.

that was just the back of his head IIRC.

[Ziggeh]

scyphozoa wrote...
I am playing the Witcher right now and this is very common. Read the line, then hear it read back verbatim. That is very boring and redundant.

[randomwitcherbashing]Pretty sure it would be boring even if it was new to you.[/randomwitcherbashing]

[Atakuma]

scyphozoa wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...
I think full text is problematic myself. I think it's adverse to the cinematics, to read the full sentence, and then have it read slowly back to you. It's not new information, it's redundant.

I am playing the Witcher right now and this is very common. Read the line, then hear it read back verbatim. That is very boring and redundant. I think having this dual format actually is a detrminemt, as reading the line first takes away from hearing it spoken. imo

I disliked that in the Witcher, and apparently so did the devs because they are switching to the paraphrase system in TW2.

[In Exile]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Whenever I see this image, I laugh. He looks like he's slightly pissed.

I could never decide if it was anger or nausea, because his eyes look like they're rolling back...

[Mike Laidlaw]

Ziggeh wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...
My problem is with the paraphrasing. Full text with a voiced protagonist has worked in The Witcher, Deus Ex and most adventure games and I don't remember anyone complaining about it, so why the heck does BioWare do the stupid paraphrasing.

I think full text is problematic myself. I think it's adverse to the cinematics, to read the full sentence, and then have it read slowly back to you. It's not new information, it's redundant.

That's a big part of it. There's also no surprise on replay, since you are exposed to the complete possible range of things your character can say the first time around.

To be fair, I think you can absolutely make full text choices work well if you're prepared to go a more Dues Ex route, where you pick the first part, and your character continues speaking afterwards, or continues in a "branch" of dialog along the vein you just picked.

But reading a line of text, then hearing that line of text is an instant jump to the skip button for me, and an instant jump to the skip button for many people we tested the paraphrase system on, while paraphrases came back as positive and, more importantly, engaging. We saw a near-0 percentage of line skips with paraphrases, which suggested to us that they work, and work well. Hence the "stupid" paraphrasing.

[Drasanil]

Dagiz wrote...
*snip*

Yes in the end it is down to preference, but when it comes down to entertainment it's always down to preference, the Devs said they listened to feed back and criticism and made adjustments accordingly as such I'm providing it, I'm not telling them they have to make it a certain way but rather illustrating my preferences and the fact that I'm willing to compromise with certain other aspects of the game to accomodate them. Assuming that DA2 had multiple race choices despite being designed with  Human-Hawke as the default/proper story path, odds are it would be 95%+ the same thing reguardless of what you chose, I would have still preferred the choice even if it felt awkward from time to time.

[MerinTB]

scyphozoa wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...
I think full text is problematic myself. I think it's adverse to the cinematics, to read the full sentence, and then have it read slowly back to you. It's not new information, it's redundant.

I am playing the Witcher right now and this is very common. Read the line, then hear it read back verbatim. That is very boring and redundant. I think having this dual format actually is a detrminemt, as reading the line first takes away from hearing it spoken. imo

It allows me to do what I end up doing in most games with voiced anything -

skip the part where it's slowly read to me.

I read MUCH FASTER than something is read to me.  I use subtitles because half the time I miss what people are saying, or can't understand them, or get distracted, whatever... but with the text there I can zip through it very quickly and move on.

Seriously.  Some people skip cut scenes in game - at least 40% of the time (probably a lot more) I skip the voiced dialog.  It's slow, it's ponderous... it doesn't add to the story for me, it detracts by making things take longer -

and before this leads someone to say that I'm rushing through the game, my first DA:O playthrough was 128 hours.

So the paraphrase selection plus voiced dialog is a delay that slows the game down for me - I have to interpret the paraphrase (sure, the icons will help speed this up as did the places of the options on the wheel in ME - I stopped caring about the paraphrase and largely relied on where the options were set on the wheel to make my choices) and then the subtitles will pop up for me to skim and them skip the line of spoken dialog as it's just started, then skim any responses and skip.

You have any idea how annoying hearing the first few words of sentences gets?
My answer: not as annoying as having to wait for line delivery, but still annoying.

Not everyone plays that way, I know - for many the voice and cinematics of said scenes are a large part of the fun.

For me, meh.

I did my 3rd playthrough of ME2 with subtitles turned off, and I will admit I got the effect that the dev team was probably looking for with the "cinematic feel" - but it made the game, as a whole, drag, and I started skipping side missions and stuff just to get the game over with faster and still ended up with a playtime comprable to my first time through.

Think of those voiced data entries in ME2 - they take SO LONG to be read to you.  Gah.  I prefer the non-voiced ones.

---

Again, I know this is just me and other people will feel differently - but the more movie-like the game feels, the more I want to put down the controller and not be bothered with game mechanics if I'm meant to just sit back, relax, and enjoy being told a visual / audial story.

[MerinTB]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...
But reading a line of text, then hearing that line of text is an instant jump to the skip button for me, and an instant jump to the skip button for many people we tested the paraphrase system on, while paraphrases came back as positive and, more importantly, engaging. We saw a near-0 percentage of line skips with paraphrases, which suggested to us that they work, and work well. Hence the "stupid" paraphrasing.

Did they have sub-titles turned off?
Because if I had to listen to the line being read to me to know what was said, I wouldn't skip either.  But let me read it, I don't want to listen to it.

For those tests to mean anything you need context - did you ASK people why they skipped, or why they listened to the lines delivered?
I'm sure most wanted to listen... but then why didn't they listen with the full text anyway if they wanted to?  Nothing's forcing them to skip...
but giving them the text allows them to skip the slower "being read to me" line delivery.  And I have to guess there are more people with my "I'd rather read it faster than have the most VO delivery give it to me slower" opinion out there.

Again, not all, probably not majority...
but I do think it's at least plausible that the reason for the skipping is as much that you made it EASIER to skip the delivery as it was boring for some to hear what they just read.