1079 réponses à ce sujet

[Ziggeh]

MerinTB wrote...

Think of those voiced data entries in ME2 - they take SO LONG to be read to you.  Gah.  I prefer the non-voiced ones.

True, that was clearly a mistake. It's something of a sci fi trope though, that one. "Computer, read the exposition for the audience and keep Gene Roddenberry's widow in gainful employment" as they sit and drink magic tea, wallowing in the inefficiency of an audio interface.

[Brockololly]

I prefer the full text plus silent PC approach as the act of selecting the dialogue choice is all I need if I'm RPing my PC - I'm more interested in how the NPC reacts to the dialogue choice I made, not seeing HawkeShep say the same thing the paraphrase should have conveyed in a slightly different tone. To me, thats just a waste.



I've posted this blog entry before, but it really sums up my feelings on the voiced ME style PC versus Origins' approach, from a Sound Designer at Media Molecule.

[AlanC9]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

But reading a line of text, then hearing that line of text is an instant jump to the skip button for me, and an instant jump to the skip button for many people we tested the paraphrase system on, while paraphrases came back as positive and, more importantly, engaging. We saw a near-0 percentage of line skips with paraphrases, which suggested to us that they work, and work well. Hence the "stupid" paraphrasing.

Of course,  if someone has no faith that the paraphrase accurately reflects what the PC is going to say, he'll have to watch the scene to find out what his character said, won't he? This metric catches people who find the full text- repeated VO system repetitive, but it misses those who find the paraphrase itself  to be a problem

[Drasanil]

MerinTB wrote...
Did they have sub-titles turned off?
Because if I had to listen to the line being read to me to know what was said, I wouldn't skip either.  But let me read it, I don't want to listen to it.

For those tests to mean anything you need context - did you ASK people why they skipped, or why they listened to the lines delivered?
I'm sure most wanted to listen... but then why didn't they listen with the full text anyway if they wanted to?  Nothing's forcing them to skip...
but giving them the text allows them to skip the slower "being read to me" line delivery.  And I have to guess there are more people with my "I'd rather read it faster than have the most VO delivery give it to me slower" opinion out there.

Again, not all, probably not majority...
but I do think it's at least plausible that the reason for the skipping is as much that you made it EASIER to skip the delivery as it was boring for some to hear what they just read.

I have to agree with this, just about the only time I don't skip the voice dialogue as when I'm either drunk or when I'm at a climactic or amusing point. I listened to more of the VO (maybe 40 to 50%) on the 1st play through but after that, bascily 85%+ of the VO in DAO was wasted on me because I could not only read much faster than the delivered lines but had already internally registered the NPCs' voices so I didn't really need to hear them.

Modifié par Drasanil, 23 décembre 2010 - 05:59 .

[In Exile]

MerinTB wrote...
And I have to guess there are more people with my "I'd rather read it faster than have the most VO delivery give it to me slower" opinion out there.

I wouldn't overestimate the number of people that would actually ever favour reading. And I mean, at all. Over anything.

Modifié par In Exile, 23 décembre 2010 - 05:57 .

[Mike Laidlaw]

MerinTB wrote...

Did they have sub-titles turned off?
Because if I had to listen to the line being read to me to know what was said, I wouldn't skip either.  But let me read it, I don't want to listen to it.

For those tests to mean anything you need context - did you ASK people why they skipped, or why they listened to the lines delivered?

If you don't ask "why" at a focus test then you either do not care about the results, or you are very, very bad at focus testing.

The why, overwhelmingly, was because they felt they were watching and enjoying a scene, rather than being forced to sit through rote reading of a line they had already internalized.

We have invested quite heavily in digital acting as a studio because we believe there's more to presenting story than just reading. Facial expressions, motion, staging, these are all part of developing a mood and conveying an emotion.

And, of course, if you don't care about those, there's subtitles, speed reading and the skip button. Hooray for options.

[MerinTB]

scyphozoa wrote...
Maybe we shouldn't have any written text and only use tone icons for dialog choices. Then everyone will be compelled to see what happens next.

That is kinda similar to how Blade Runner did it, in essence - where you didn't choose dialog nor paraphrases but mood/tone.  In that sense you could choose at each conversation, or in the menu just set your overall mood and the game just ran through the dialog without pausing for your input.
In a game where I don't get to make my character (adjusting stats is not what I mean) and, like ME or Blade Runner or Wing Commander 3, I'm player a set story character, for the cinematic experience I'd be happier with JUST icons or moods (and a setting where, if I wish, I could have the game NOT pause for choice and just auto-respond based on what I set my character's mood to be overall.)

I'd be happier with that than a paraphrase, personally - skip the thin illusion of dialog choice when you are really only choosing mood of the response.

[MerinTB]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

Did they have sub-titles turned off?
Because if I had to listen to the line being read to me to know what was said, I wouldn't skip either.  But let me read it, I don't want to listen to it.

For those tests to mean anything you need context - did you ASK people why they skipped, or why they listened to the lines delivered?

If you don't ask "why" at a focus test then you either do not care about the results, or you are very, very bad at focus testing.

The why, overwhelmingly, was because they felt they were watching and enjoying a scene, rather than being forced to sit through rote reading of a line they had already internalized.

We have invested quite heavily in digital acting as a studio because we believe there's more to presenting story than just reading. Facial expressions, motion, staging, these are all part of developing a mood and conveying an emotion.

And, of course, if you don't care about those, there's subtitles, speed reading and the skip button. Hooray for options.

I assumed that you had asked such questions - I was just curious as to the results.

I didn't mean to imply that you just read a list of digitall recorded data points and speculated.

I love movies - but I am someone who believes reading a book is a better overall experience.  Movies are for when I want to think less and take less time.

I think my problem is, for an RPG game, I want to think MORE and the movie presentation goes counter to my mood for playing.  I relax when watching a movie, I'm engaged when reading a novel.

The "cinematic" game is quite jarring to me.

[White_Buffalo94]

So am I right in assuming that if I play as a mage most of the playthroughs (Which I will, I want my MaleHawke to be a blood-relative to my Origins mage, Romulus Amell) then I will not get Bethany, I'll get Carver because the team doesn't need 2 mages so the story kills one off?

[AlanC9]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...
We have invested quite heavily in digital acting as a studio because we believe there's more to presenting story than just reading. Facial expressions, motion, staging, these are all part of developing a mood and conveying an emotion.

And presumably your data backs this up or you wouldn't still be doing it.

I suppose your data also shows that there simply aren't that many people who watched the scene because they couldn't figure out what the PC was going to say.

[Maria Caliban]

scyphozoa wrote...

Maybe we shouldn't have any written text and only use tone icons for dialog choices. Then everyone will be compelled to see what happens next.

Alpha Protocol did this. I was engaged. It helps that Mike Thorton is an pre-existing character who you mold. More so than Shepard.

[MerinTB]

And Alpha Protocol. Right. How'd I forget that.

Yes, I'd prefer mood to paraphrase. Established character, I'm not actually choosing the dialog but the mood - don't bother with the paraphrase.

Modifié par MerinTB, 23 décembre 2010 - 06:14 .

[White_Buffalo94]

David Gaider wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
That kind of stinks- can't even make a choice in the matter its just predetermined by the Plot Gods?

Not that this is something you're really concerned about, I imagine, but this came down to a design decision. I understand that you're deciding who you like more based on a meta-gaming decision (using information gleaned from previews, along with assumptions as to what Bethany and Carver are about) but someone who's playing the game for the first time won't know these things. How would they make such a decision, based on characters they've only just met? It would feel hollow at best-- and providing a decision that indirectly did the same thing (meaning you weren't directly deciding between them, but whatever decision you did make had the same end effect) might also feel cheap.

This did what we needed for the story to work-- and personally I really like the fact that both Bethany and Carver are fully-realized characters, providing you family members that aren't killed off right at the beginning of the story who are also going to work as part of it. I would caution you not to assume the worst about characters you haven't met yet and a story you don't know about... but you are of course free to jump to whatever conclusions you like.

Ok, well I suppose Carver will be my accompanying sibling. In this case, I hope Bethany gets dragged off by templars to be put into the Circle or something so she is safe throughout the years, or so you can rescue her later on.

[Ziggeh]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...
dragged off by templars

Sounds painful. Badum dum tish.

I'll get me coat.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 23 décembre 2010 - 06:20 .

[In Exile]

MerinTB wrote...

And Alpha Protocol. Right. How'd I forget that

Yes, I'd prefer mood to paraphrase. Established character, I'm not actually choosing the dialog but the mood - don't bother with the paraphrase.

The problem is that we can't agree if the character is predefined or not. I don't think either Shepard or Hawke are, but that Thorton and Geralt were.

Modifié par In Exile, 23 décembre 2010 - 06:27 .

[Piecake]

In Exile wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

And Alpha Protocol. Right. How'd I forget that

Yes, I'd prefer mood to paraphrase. Established character, I'm not actually choosing the dialog but the mood - don't bother with the paraphrase.

The problem is that we can't agree if the character is predefined or not. I don't think either Shepard or Hawke are, but that Thorton and Geralt were.

I'd be perfectly fine with having bioware's PCs being predefined.  

[Atakuma]

Piecake wrote...


I'd be perfectly fine with having bioware's PCs being predefined.  

I wouldn't. That would almost guarantee that I would have to play a male protaganist, and I get enough of that already.

[HolyJellyfish]

What Atakuma said.

[Piecake]

Atakuma wrote...

Piecake wrote...


I'd be perfectly fine with having bioware's PCs being predefined.  

I wouldn't. That would almost guarantee that I would have to play a male protaganist, and I get enough of that already.

What if the character was in touch with his feminine side?  Still no?  *insert half-kidding icon here*

[Atakuma]

Piecake wrote...

What if the character was in touch with his feminine side?  Still no?  *insert half-kidding icon here*

If he also had man boobs I might be able to make it work.

[Maria Caliban]

Atakuma wrote...

Piecake wrote...


I'd be perfectly fine with having bioware's PCs being predefined.

I wouldn't. That would almost guarantee that I would have to play a male protaganist, and I get enough of that already.

Right. Predefined protagonist = white, straight dude 90% of the time.

I understand why video game companies do this, but I prefer to play women.

[MerinTB]

Atakuma wrote...

Piecake wrote...
I'd be perfectly fine with having bioware's PCs being predefined.  

I wouldn't. That would almost guarantee that I would have to play a male protaganist, and I get enough of that already.

How about predefined but with stats control and choice of gender?

The more I'm coming to grips with BioWare making a certain style of game, and that style evolving in a certain direction... (I consider this the "adventure game with X game elements" where X can be shooter, RPG, whatever)...

the more I'd rather it just be a predefined protagonist as well.  With gender choice if that doesn't ruin the story (and apparently they don't think it does for DA2, so bully!)

[Piecake]

MerinTB wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Piecake wrote...
I'd be perfectly fine with having bioware's PCs being predefined.  

I wouldn't. That would almost guarantee that I would have to play a male protaganist, and I get enough of that already.

How about predefined but with stats control and choice of gender?

The more I'm coming to grips with BioWare making a certain style of game, and that style evolving in a certain direction... (I consider this the "adventure game with X game elements" where X can be shooter, RPG, whatever)...

the more I'd rather it just be a predefined protagonist as well.  With gender choice if that doesn't ruin the story (and apparently they don't think it does for DA2, so bully!)

Yea, I really don't see gender choice and predifned character as mutually exclusive.  Sure, you'll probably have to change some in-game dialogue up and what not, but they already do that anyways.  

[In Exile]

MerinTB wrote...
The more I'm coming to grips with BioWare making a certain style of game, and that style evolving in a certain direction... (I consider this the "adventure game with X game elements" where X can be shooter, RPG, whatever)...

the more I'd rather it just be a predefined protagonist as well.  With gender choice if that doesn't ruin the story (and apparently they don't think it does for DA2, so bully!)

That's just the same problem as before, though, with a belief in the opposite direction. Bioware does not believe in truly predefined PCs. In the same way they don't seem to believe in create-your-own party mechanics.

They have their unique style and blending, and it needs to be appreciated for what it is.