1079 réponses à ce sujet

[Piecake]

In Exile wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
The more I'm coming to grips with BioWare making a certain style of game, and that style evolving in a certain direction... (I consider this the "adventure game with X game elements" where X can be shooter, RPG, whatever)...

the more I'd rather it just be a predefined protagonist as well.  With gender choice if that doesn't ruin the story (and apparently they don't think it does for DA2, so bully!)

That's just the same problem as before, though, with a belief in the opposite direction. Bioware does not believe in truly predefined PCs. In the same way they don't seem to believe in create-your-own party mechanics.

They have their unique style and blending, and it needs to be appreciated for what it is.

I dont agree with this sentiment at all.  You don't know what they truly believe or what part is essential to a 'bioware' game.  And you don't know that they wont do something like that in the future.

Plus, he isnt saying that he doesnt appreciate the charactes, he is simply saying that he would prefer predifined characters.  What is wrong with that?

Frankly, I'd rather have predifined characters because I never really roleplay.  Ive always felt distance.  Always felt that the PC was another character, and not me.  Because of that, i felt like my PC was one uninterestingly boring dude

[HolyJellyfish]

MerinTB wrote...

How about predefined but with stats control and choice of gender?

The more I'm coming to grips with BioWare making a certain style of game, and that style evolving in a certain direction... (I consider this the "adventure game with X game elements" where X can be shooter, RPG, whatever)...

the more I'd rather it just be a predefined protagonist as well.  With gender choice if that doesn't ruin the story (and apparently they don't think it does for DA2, so bully!)

Wait.

Why would someone want a predefined PC when the entire idea behind Bioware's games is that you are suppose to define your own protagonist, be it aesthetically or emotionally?

The only time I ever want to see a predefined PC is when that character is ported over from the game previous. Just saying.

[Piecake]

scyphozoa wrote...


To get a little bit more on point, I would love to see a Bioware game with a predefined character. I would like to see a single gender PC. I think that the ambiguity of gender would make a predefined PC's story more diluted. I feel like the more a story can be tailored to a specifically defined PC the better the story will be. Now, I don't say this to exclude anyone, I don't have a preference with which gender it is. I do think a better story can be told about a predefined character if that gender ambiguity doesn't exist. In general, I would like to see Bioware make a story driven game closer to KOTOR or Assassin's Creed, where its really about telling the story of a predefined character. Again, not as a permanent paradigm shift for all future games, just for 1 project. I think it would be interesting to see what Bioware cooks up.

*cough* 3 predifined characters in their upcoming multiple PC dragon age game *cough*  Actually, having predifned characters in a multiple PC game does make a lot of sense

[HolyJellyfish]

scyphozoa wrote...

I would like to see Bioware defy a lot of its conventions. Don't get me wrong, I like them and they have proven to be very successful, however I feel like its maybe time for Bioware to break out of its shell. Bioware is now the crown jewel developer of EA. Lets see a Bioware platformer. Lets see a Bioware action/adventure game like Zelda. Lets see Bioware break all of its conventions, not as a permanent paradigm shift for every future game, just on individual projects. Now, more so than ever before in their history(I assume!), they have the manpower to grow and experiment. This is me speaking as a consumer gamer, not from a business perspective, I imagine what I suggest would be quite the financial risk.

Maybe. Maaaayyybe. But my opinion is, if you know how to craft a god damn wonderful beer that everyone adores and appreciates and is well reviewed, why would you start a tequila company? Just brew more varieties in the beer.

They have RPG/action thing down to a tea. They are currently dominating the market as far as reviews and sales, if ME2 has anything to say about it. Bioware has completely redefined and created a level of quality story telling that can be ported from game to game to game. This makes them rather envied on the market.

So just keep craftin'. Don't go making Tequila.

[Addai]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

^ My tea is now on my computer screen. Thanks.

Anyways, I agree. Silent NPCs are outdated. The console & PC systems are now stronger and more powerful than ever before. Videogames are taking an almost cinematic quality these days. Unless the NPC is silent for a purpose, it is a model that had its purpose in an age where voice overs were non existent.

now they are the norm

So I keep hearing around this forum.  But computers were also supposed to eliminate the need for paper.  It is to laugh.

[Piecake]

Addai67 wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

^ My tea is now on my computer screen. Thanks.

Anyways, I agree. Silent NPCs are outdated. The console & PC systems are now stronger and more powerful than ever before. Videogames are taking an almost cinematic quality these days. Unless the NPC is silent for a purpose, it is a model that had its purpose in an age where voice overs were non existent.

now they are the norm

So I keep hearing around this forum.  But computers were also supposed to eliminate the need for paper.  It is to laugh.

Thats just because we havent figured out how the three seashells work.  Once we do, bye bye paper!

[Addai]

leonia42 wrote...

Totally agree, Maria, I am really looking forward to my character actually expressing herself this time around. I always got jealous of the NPCs with their facial expressions and body language. They were always more realistic than my own bloody character. From what we've heard on DA 2, this seems to be getting addressed (not just through having a voice, but through cinematics as well) so I am pretty happy about that.

I don't mind having a silent protagonist in games (heck most of the RPGs I grew up on and love have silent protagonists)  where I am not supposed to feel too connected to the character (usually where the character is completely predetermined and I can't control anything about them anyway) but I am glad that with the engaging story of DA 2 that we've been promised that our characters will really feel like they are a part of it instead of being a silent observer.

And I'm resigned to the fact that the game will be like an action movie- even if it's good while it lasts, it's forgettable.  I'd pay 20 bucks for that, as I did with The Witcher and Mass Effect, but dragging my feet about paying 60.

And did anyone really think that in a year the Warden never smiled?  I admit small bits of emotion on the Warden's face were touching when I saw them in mods, but it's a big trade-off for having the PC become just another schmuck in the video landscape.

[HolyJellyfish]

Addai67 wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

^ My tea is now on my computer screen. Thanks.

Anyways, I agree. Silent NPCs are outdated. The console & PC systems are now stronger and more powerful than ever before. Videogames are taking an almost cinematic quality these days. Unless the NPC is silent for a purpose, it is a model that had its purpose in an age where voice overs were non existent.

now they are the norm

So I keep hearing around this forum.  But computers were also supposed to eliminate the need for paper.  It is to laugh.

Its also different.

NPCs were also silent, and that is no longer viable unless you are playing the DS, but even then I think that's changing.

I have no aversion to these changes. I can understand why some people would, because it is familiar, but if you stay with familiar, new things never happen and you don't see an evolution in the product. Its risky, but you can't bang it until you try. But that is my opinion.

[In Exile]

Piecake wrote...
I dont agree with this sentiment at all.  You don't know what they truly believe or what part is essential to a 'bioware' game.  And you don't know that they wont do something like that in the future.

I think we can infer what core design values Bioware has, in terms of their history of game design. They do not want  unlimited player freedom in terms of create-your-own-content, but so far Bioware has, from a creative standpoint, always gone with fixed background variable protagonists.

A truly predefined character would essentially be a move from dialogue to scripted cut-scene.

Plus, he isnt saying that he doesnt appreciate the charactes, he is simply saying that he would prefer predifined characters.  What is wrong with that?

I didn't say there's anything wrong with that - just that Merlin previously expressed that he was unfarily judging Bioware by believing them to be a company that produced Black Isle style games, e.g. Icewind Dale.

Going in the opposite direction, and looking at them as a company that wants to produce an entirely predefined cinematic experience ala Metal Gear Solid is the same kind of error, just with the other extreme.

Frankly, I'd rather have predifined characters because I never really roleplay.  Ive always felt distance.  Always felt that the PC was another character, and not me.  Because of that, i felt like my PC was one uninterestingly boring dude

There's nothing wrong with that. But the initial point was that Bioware's style is better served by a truly predefined PC, and I don't think Bioware's design history backs that up.

Tomorrow, they could design a multiplayer co-op shooter with no story. That'd be out of character, and so an unpredicted turn. What I am saying is that truly predefined PC (like in GTA, as an example of another series) would be a dramatic departure for Bioware.

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...
And did anyone really think that in a year the Warden never smiled?  I admit small bits of emotion on the Warden's face were touching when I saw them in mods, but it's a big trade-off for having the PC become just another schmuck in the video landscape.

It's not that the Warden doesn't smile. It's that the souless automaton puppet doesn't. In the same way that for you, the biggest part of your connection to your character is the mental experience, a big part for us is the visual. Not as large,but still important. With that missing, it lessens the character in the same way adding VO lessens it for you.

[Piecake]

In Exile wrote...

Piecake wrote...
I dont agree with this sentiment at all.  You don't know what they truly believe or what part is essential to a 'bioware' game.  And you don't know that they wont do something like that in the future.

I think we can infer what core design values Bioware has, in terms of their history of game design. They do not want  unlimited player freedom in terms of create-your-own-content, but so far Bioware has, from a creative standpoint, always gone with fixed background variable protagonists.

A truly predefined character would essentially be a move from dialogue to scripted cut-scene.

He never said a truly predifined character, and you were the one who brought up Thornton and Geralt as characters that are predefined yet have dialogue and choice/consequence. 

a truly predefined character would be drastically different from what Bioware has designed, but I dont think its right to assume thats what he or I mean based on the history of the conversation. 

Modifié par Piecake, 23 décembre 2010 - 07:57 .

[Maria Caliban]

I played through Fallout: NV and never had a problem. The silent protagonist can work, but not when I'm seeing a third-person representation of them slit a boy's throat without a hint of emotion. And that same 'expressionless' presentation is used when telling Leliana you love her or arguing passionately before the Landsmeet.

[Shady314]

David Gaider wrote...
Fair enough. Personally I see nothing intrinsically amazing about a non-human character-- beyond the fact that some people are apparently so jaded they'll long for something different just for the sake of it being different... even if that difference is only superficial. I can understand that desire, but I can't respect it. Sorry.

So you believe the differences between elves and humans in the Dragon Age universe are purely superficial? Good to know.

[In Exile]

Piecake wrote...
He never said a truly predifined character, and you were the one who brought up Thornton and Geralt as characters that are predefined yet have dialogue and choice/consequence. 

He wasn't speaking to me. He mentioned 'predefined' with stat control and gender choice, so I was assuming that's what he took predefined to be, i.e. with no dialogue system at all.

a truly predefined character would be drastically different from what Bioware has designed, but I dont think its right to assume thats what he or I mean based on the history of the conversation. 

It seemed to me to be the sort of thing he was thinking about. He certainly has to have excluded Bioware PCs so far from having been predefined (i.e. Hawke & Shepard) and the major difference with Geralt & Thorton were either how we picked the dialogue or how tight our leash was (+ the no gender change thing, but he allowed for that).

[Wissenschaft]

Shady314 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
Fair enough. Personally I see nothing intrinsically amazing about a non-human character-- beyond the fact that some people are apparently so jaded they'll long for something different just for the sake of it being different... even if that difference is only superficial. I can understand that desire, but I can't respect it. Sorry.

So you believe the differences between elves and humans in the Dragon Age universe are purely superficial? Good to know.

Thats not what he meant. David clearly would rather write romances about an LI personal issues and personality rather than make that LI all about, HEY I'M AN ELF, LOOK HOW Different I AM.

Its pretty much like complaining theres no black character to romance in DA:O therefore DA romance sucks.

Whether or not an LI is a human, elf, whatever, really has no baring on whether that romance is good or not.

[Piecake]

In Exile wrote...

Piecake wrote...
He never said a truly predifined character, and you were the one who brought up Thornton and Geralt as characters that are predefined yet have dialogue and choice/consequence. 

He wasn't speaking to me. He mentioned 'predefined' with stat control and gender choice, so I was assuming that's what he took predefined to be, i.e. with no dialogue system at all.

a truly predefined character would be drastically different from what Bioware has designed, but I dont think its right to assume thats what he or I mean based on the history of the conversation. 

It seemed to me to be the sort of thing he was thinking about. He certainly has to have excluded Bioware PCs so far from having been predefined (i.e. Hawke & Shepard) and the major difference with Geralt & Thorton were either how we picked the dialogue or how tight our leash was (+ the no gender change thing, but he allowed for that).

Eh, I assumed he wasnt based on his talk of preferring  the tone/mood system of alpha protocol over ME's paraphrase system and your talk about geralt and thorton

Modifié par Piecake, 23 décembre 2010 - 08:45 .

[Xewaka]

scyphozoa wrote...
I think silent protagonists have a place, but maybe its not at the heart of choice and cinematic driven games anymore.

Then the problem is with cinematic driven games. I'm buying a game to play it. If I wanted to watch it, I'd get a movie instead.

Modifié par Xewaka, 23 décembre 2010 - 08:44 .

[Shady314]

Wissenschaft wrote...
Whether or not an LI is a human, elf, whatever, really has no baring on whether that romance is good or not.

Simply untrue. A good romance would take into account the race of the character. Thus a good elf romance might very well be a very poor human romance. Unless of course the difference between the two are purely superficial.

When people ask for something usually the good is implied. People aren't asking for an elven romance whether it's good or bad. They are asking for a good elven romance even if they just say elven.

Also you shouldn't claim to read David's mind. You don't know what he meant. Because what he said is that the differences are purely superficial. He wants to write a personal romance but a character's race isn't personal?

Modifié par Shady314, 23 décembre 2010 - 08:46 .

[Piecake]

Well, who knows. Hawke seems more predefined than the Warden or Shepard, so perhaps ill find him suitably interesting

[Xewaka]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

Did they have sub-titles turned off?
Because if I had to listen to the line being read to me to know what was said, I wouldn't skip either.  But let me read it, I don't want to listen to it.

For those tests to mean anything you need context - did you ASK people why they skipped, or why they listened to the lines delivered?

If you don't ask "why" at a focus test then you either do not care about the results, or you are very, very bad at focus testing.
The why, overwhelmingly, was because they felt they were watching and enjoying a scene, rather than being forced to sit through rote reading of a line they had already internalized.
We have invested quite heavily in digital acting as a studio because we believe there's more to presenting story than just reading. Facial expressions, motion, staging, these are all part of developing a mood and conveying an emotion.
And, of course, if you don't care about those, there's subtitles, speed reading and the skip button. Hooray for options.

I'd bet a month's salary that if you had non-native english speakers on the focus tests the results would be wildly different. My experience as a spanish-speaking fellow is that people will skim the subtitle line then skip the delivery, because they have no need of listening to foreign gibberish (even if I can understand spoken english rather well, I find myself skipping, because it would take me at least half an hour to adjust to english reception).
And the paraphrase doesn't help, either. With a 30 character count limit, and considering that latin languages have, on average, a higher character-per-word count than english, I'd expect the paraphrase to be absolutely and completely useless for anyone not playing in a romance language (portuguese, spanish, french, italian).

Modifié par Xewaka, 23 décembre 2010 - 09:01 .

[rNEBL]

    this has been an interesting discussion. I don't usually post because i have a learning disability and my spelling is atrocious but i find my self unable to resist. First i must say that bioware is my favorite game company your games are consistently stellar and because of there narrative depth and exultance they have garnered a large and passionate flowing this may be a two edged sword.    
Mr Gaider one of your responses to the criticisms made by other posters has been that they are speculating about a game that they haven't played yet. this is a valid point but i think  the very nature of this website dilutes it a little. the people that come here and post are in general active  consumers of you product. our only way to interact with a game that isn't out yet is to speculate, think of us as children shaking a rapped present.

   this speculation leads to misasumtions. "wow that trailer was cool, what class was hawk, oh a mage that's awsome i think I'll play that, who's that girl in the screen shot she looks cool if i had to chose I'd pick her plus now I'll have two people who can do all that cool stuff form the trailer.".  misasumtion , speculation, human nature.  
 
   i have to be honest  this latest revelation  on how and who survives the early portion of the game
sent me for a loop i feel as if  I've gone threw the stages of lose with a very long stop at the anger stage. for this i apologize i think I'm over it now but what I'm trying  to express (rather unartfully) in the child with the rapped gift metaphor is that assumption has gotten the better of me.  i rely enjoy your games i like the power that you give to the player to be active in shaping the narrative. I think were i and may others become occasionally disheartened  is when we perceive a reel or imagined stricture of  these chooses. i understand the need, you have to tell a story .  

   well i have more thoughts but this has taken me three hours to write so i'll close there

thank you

[MerinTB]

In Exile wrote...

Piecake wrote...
He never said a truly predifined character, and you were the one who brought up Thornton and Geralt as characters that are predefined yet have dialogue and choice/consequence. 

He wasn't speaking to me. He mentioned 'predefined' with stat control and gender choice, so I was assuming that's what he took predefined to be, i.e. with no dialogue system at all.

a truly predefined character would be drastically different from what Bioware has designed, but I dont think its right to assume thats what he or I mean based on the history of the conversation. 

It seemed to me to be the sort of thing he was thinking about. He certainly has to have excluded Bioware PCs so far from having been predefined (i.e. Hawke & Shepard) and the major difference with Geralt & Thorton were either how we picked the dialogue or how tight our leash was (+ the no gender change thing, but he allowed for that).

I think you were the one who said earlier about disagreeing about what "predefined" means.

BioWare has, repeatedly, stated that Shepard isn't the player's character but the game designers' character.
They have a story, and they want the character you play to have a very specific role / persona in that story.

***very old SPOILERS ALERT***

BG series - you are the Bhaalspawn.  Not terribly restrictive on personality, race, stats, etc., but you have a specific role in the story regardless of what you want.
KotOR - you are Revan - this is much more restrictive.  You are going to be a Jedi, regardless of what you pick as your starting class.  Where you GO in the game is up to you, but who you were and what you are is not.
Jade Empire - you are a very specific person, again, and this one IMO is somewhere between BG and KotOR for restrictiveness... plus character creation was extremely limited
Mass Effect - you are Shepard, Alliance soldier, destined to be a Specter... you get the background choices of where you were born and what a major event that shaped you was, which is one sense more control than previous games, but these choices are barely more story worthy than which build you take - none of it limits your dialog choices or how you interact with people.... you can adjust stats on Shepard, just like on Mike Thorton, except you can also adjust gender and first name (which is only important for save game distinction, really)
Dragon Age: Origins - at least as open in character creation as the BG series, 3 races, 3 classes, 6 total different origins... arguably this is more restrictive than the background you could type in for BG, but game-wise it is more compelling for you making your character even if creativity is stifled a bit... you are GOING to be a Grey Warden, no choice about it really, but it's about as restrictive as being a Bhaalspawn in some sense - something assigned to you that doesn't change really who you are (whereas being a Jedi or Spirit Monk or Alliance soldier actually do change in a more fundamental way who you are.)
***end SPOILERS***


True, it IS arguable how pre-defined Shepard is compared to Mike Thorton and The Nameless One or the Avatar (Ultima) and the Vault Dweller...
but clearly he has many points about him (or her) that you do not have control over, about who and what he is, as for Mass Effect to work they NEED your character to be X, Y, and Z.  He has to be human, despite there being other races who could be playable, for the story of you being the first human specter to work, and so on...

BioWare, IMO, is best at crafting a story with several break-off points where you make major story decisions that affect the overall end of the story as whole.... at making the adventure game... and you can craft a better story with a more defined (more limited, if you prefer) character.

I like their stories and the choices they offer me in the stories, but I don't like the "character creation" for how limited it often feels.

So, for me, I'm ok with them doing away with most of those RPG elements that deal with creating your own character, and instead have them say "here, male or female MC - fill out your abilities and talents as you like, but you will be Occupation X having lived through Experience Y and destined to become Heroic Title Z."

This is me, from my opinion - if I can't design my party from the ground up, if I can't make my own MC (as opposed to adjusting the MC like you do with Shepard IMO)... then I'd rather not have a half-way compromise.

You might like or love the compromise, the "balanced" features if you believe them to be balanced.

I'm saying if the story is more important, I'm happy with Lightning and Snow from FFXIII or Mike Thorton from Alpha Protocol.
I'd rather have the Courier from F:NV or especially my own party a la Wasteland... but I can enjoy a game without that... just don't remind me of it being missing by giving enough to tease but not enough to satisfy.