1079 réponses à ce sujet

[Piecake]

tmp7704 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

tmp7704 wrote..

I'm instead noting that they may be attaching more value to the cinematic presentation than it's warranted.

Which is a claim that they are inaccurate in their justification of their paraphrase.

Here is what you said originally re:

Let's bold slightly different parts of what i said originally:

"Wouldn't that rather imply that there's far
less interest in the "cinematic delivery" than you believe it to be?"

This doesn't mean i think they're inaccurate in their justification of the paraphrase -- the paraphrase system does seem to perfom function it's intended for, that is, to remove the factor which makes people skip the VO/cutscenes. Instead i think that behaviour of the players may indicate there's too much value being attached to the element which creates need for the paraphrase in the first place, and that is the voiced protagonist / cinematic presentation thing.

People in this topic who prefer a voiced protagonist are telling you otherwise.  I do find it funny that you dont seem to accept the explanation on this matter from people who actually like it, but instead make 'observations' about 'other people's' preferences and reasons that conspicuously put your own preferences in a better light.

[Shady314]

sarahbalman wrote...

Everyone should relax. This is Bioware! They never fail to make a good/GREAT game.

Yes they do.

[upsettingshorts]

Shady314 wrote...

sarahbalman wrote...

Everyone should relax. This is Bioware! They never fail to make a good/GREAT game.

Yes they do.

It's a matter of perspective, obviously.

[Maria Caliban]

In Exile wrote...

Wait, you mean all non-humans? In all speculative fiction? Or are you specifically talking about the common fantasy races?

However, I was responding to Upsettingshorts 'The story would be the same.' No, using city elves that could stand in for a number of oppressed groups is not the same using a specific, real world oppressed group.

You wouldn't have to use a specific oppressed group. It would just be the dalish (or whatever name you want to give them) and they would be a conquered people. Just like what the elves are.

I suppose at best you could say that fantasy pushes a particular version of race (that we are intrinsically different and not all the same thing) but I don't see why not using fantasy races implies we would have to use real world race.

You didn't answer my question.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It's a matter of perspective, obviously.

80% of the discussion in this thread is a matter of perspective.

I thought NWN had the most lackluster companions of any game. The environments and costumes were also unattractive.

I forgive all this because of the toolset. Part of me hopes that they'll release a smaller dragon age game with tilesets and such so we can have a similar toolset.

If you didn't like the toolset and had no interest in multiplayer? Yeah, I can appreciate not seeing NWN as a great or even good RPG.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 24 décembre 2010 - 01:11 .

[Shady314]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
It's a matter of perspective, obviously.

Obviously.

[tmp7704]

In Exile wrote...

But that assumes you have a conscious choice in trying to get the piece. It's like looking at a screen with writing and not reading. There is a basic level of cognitive reflex you can't avoid.

What can i say; i can actually look at screen with writing and not read it. It's easier with foreign language, granted. And it's far easier with music.

Out of curiosity -- do you feel you're doing nothing but "experiencing the script" when you listen to techno tracks?

Well, I contest precisely that. I would argue you cannot separate the ambience from the music because the music is supposed to produce this kind of auditory reaction to the content (i.e. to the precise sounds chosen) independent of your willingness to interpret it at all.

Like watching a foreign movie, whether or not you are willingly trying to understand the action, there is some basic level of understanding and exposure to content you cannot escape from short of not watching in the first place.

I suppose you can view it this way, but what if i then don't care about this glimpse of content? Or alternatively, what if i dislike the presented content yet enjoy the presentation to the point it makes me keep watching? The latter in particular would require the presentation to have value of its own.

Like them screaming, or grunting?

Including that, yes. Grunts in particular can be very pleasant to listen to...

[In Exile]

tmp7704 wrote...
Let's bold slightly different parts of what i said originally:

"Wouldn't that rather imply that there's far
less interest in the "cinematic delivery" than you believe it to be?"

This doesn't mean i think they're inaccurate in their justification of the paraphrase -- the paraphrase system does seem to perfom function it's intended for, that is, to remove the factor which makes people skip the VO/cutscenes. Instead i think that behaviour of the players may indicate there's too much value being attached to the element which creates need for the paraphrase in the first place, and that is the voiced protagonist / cinematic presentation thing.

Those are both premises. They are alternate explanations. But alternate explanations for what? That would be your main conclusion, that Bioware is wrong in their interpretation of their own results, and that some other interpretation is needed (i.e. yours).

[In Exile]

Maria Caliban wrote...


You didn't answer my question.

Whoops. I'm not familiar enough with speculative fiction. I should have been clearer than saying fiction and ought to have said fantasy.

[In Exile]

tmp7704 wrote...
What can i say; i can actually look at screen with writing and not read it. It's easier with foreign language, granted. And it's far easier with music.

You actually can't. Studies have been done. People think they're not reading it, but their brain is. We can demarcate because people can do this with foreign languages. They have to actually consciously read the line.

Out of curiosity -- do you feel you're doing nothing but "experiencing the script" when you listen to techno tracks?

Techno still has content. It has some unifying theme that makes it marginally coherent.

Music doesn't a script in the same way a movie does, and so we have to use a different standard.

I suppose you can view it this way, but what if i then don't care about this glimpse of content? Or alternatively, what if i dislike the presented content yet enjoy the presentation to the point it makes me keep watching? The latter in particular would require the presentation to have value of its own.

No. The latter would still have experience as a factor load on script.

Because you would have an even better experience if you liked the content.

[tmp7704]

Piecake wrote...

People in this topic who prefer a voiced protagonist are telling you otherwise.  I do find it funny that you dont seem to accept the explanation on this matter from people who actually like it, but instead make 'observations' about 'other people's' preferences and reasons that conspicuously put your own preferences in a better light.

People in this topic who prefer a voiced protagonist are telling me they attach large value to having the voiced protagonist? Colour me shocked.

And i'm sorry if that seems funny; it may be perspective gained from reading a number of game-related boards -- sometimes players can have a surprisingly low grasp on both the idea of what they'd in practice enjoy/not enjoy, and on the reasons behind that. To clarify i'd definitely include myself in this group too, it's just witnessing this can eventually teach you to make your own interpretations of behaviours in addition to what you're being told. And not blindly believe the latter.

[tmp7704]

In Exile wrote...

No. The latter would still have experience as a factor load on script.

Because you would have an even better experience if you liked the content.

Wait, the presentation cannot be considered to have value of its own because if script was better, then the overall experience would too, be better? This doesn't rule out both components providing their own value (if S increases then S + P increases)

[Piecake]

tmp7704 wrote...

Piecake wrote...

People in this topic who prefer a voiced protagonist are telling you otherwise.  I do find it funny that you dont seem to accept the explanation on this matter from people who actually like it, but instead make 'observations' about 'other people's' preferences and reasons that conspicuously put your own preferences in a better light.

People in this topic who prefer a voiced protagonist are telling me they attach large value to having the voiced protagonist? Colour me shocked.

And i'm sorry if that seems funny; it may be perspective gained from reading a number of game-related boards -- sometimes players can have a surprisingly low grasp on both the idea of what they'd in practice enjoy/not enjoy, and on the reasons behind that. To clarify i'd definitely include myself in this group too, it's just witnessing this can eventually teach you to make your own interpretations of behaviours in addition to what you're being told. And not blindly believe the latter.

You are either doing one or more of the following, I really don't know which- I think your argument is just a pure speculation/guesswork trainwreck

- You are assuming that Bioware didnt ask up a follow up question as to why they dislike the full text VO system
- You are assuming that Bioweare didnt test the paraphrase system
- You are assuming that they didnt test VO versus pure text system
- You are assuming that either the people there don't know there own feelings and desires or that Bioware doesn't know how to interpret their date
-You don't think that the posters statements here that claim that they do the same behavior(I am also in that group) in that scenario and that it isnt related to VO applies to the testers, or simply think those posters don't know their own preferences and desires

Your 'observations' are also reliant on a summarry of data collected by Bioware, not the actual data, the specifics, - so you have far far less data to reach a conclusion than them.  And you are also disregarding the claims and preferences of the posters here in order to make an 'observation' that is based on a gut feeling at best and conspicuously puts your own preferences in a better light

This also means that I am interpretating your behavior since I believe that your own preferences are seriously clouding your perspective/argument

Modifié par Piecake, 24 décembre 2010 - 01:53 .

[Maria Caliban]

tmp7704 wrote...

People in this topic who prefer a voiced protagonist are telling me they attach large value to having the voiced protagonist? Colour me shocked.

Some attach large value. Some prefer it a bit. Some prefer it within a specific context. 'Voiced protagonist' is not a binary value. Many games I've liked had voice over for the main character and some didn't.

That said, isn't this entire discussion based on Mike saying, "People hated the voiced protagonist?" We can interpret this as 'all people' or 'some people.'

I think a voiced protagonist is going to become like graphics within computer games. Either you 'progress' or people consider you outdated and sales drop. Personally, if someone says they can't immerse themselves in a game because of a silent protagonist, I view it as similar to saying they can't play a game because of the older graphics. It's a bit shallow.

However, people are shallow. Once they pick an acceptable 'minimum,' anything below that will be perceived as bad. When posters make threads complaining that ME 2's didn't look good enough at ultra mode on their two 30'' screens, I roll my eyes, but ten years from now, I'll probably load up ME 2 and find myself unimpressed at how dull, lifeless and muddy everything is.

I think within my lifetime, computers games will hit the photorealsitic digital actors and environmental mark and join the rest of the visual arts in exploring abstraction, surrealism, expressionism, etc. To me, the desire for 'better looking' graphics hurts the visual artistry games are capable of.

And i'm sorry if that seems funny; it may be perspective gained from reading a number of game-related boards -- sometimes players can have a surprisingly low grasp on both the idea of what they'd in practice enjoy/not enjoy, and on the reasons behind that. To clarify i'd definitely include myself in this group too, it's just witnessing this can eventually teach you to make your own interpretations of behaviours in addition to what you're being told. And not blindly believe the latter.

To some extent, I'm defensive of BioWare. I like Mass Effect 1 and 2 with its voice protagonist. I liked the Dues Ex series. I didn't like the Witcher, but I don't think it was because of the main character's VO. I like Alpha Protocol. If they think a voiced protagonist is the way to go, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I appreciate that others want a silent protagonist. Suggesting that the lack of one ruins their game... well then, it's not their game. I don't like it when people come into the forums with a laundry list of things they *must* have in the game constantly complain that BioWare isn't including them.

And no, I'm not referring to you.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 24 décembre 2010 - 02:48 .

[bsbcaer]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

i think you, like many laymen in our community, don't really know what role the marketing department plays in the game development process.

They are your iron-fisted lords and tyrants, second only to EA in their desire to tear out everything that's good and noble in BioWare while destroying the western RPG.

Am I close?

No.

They have nothing to do with the game development process, except to ask questions about how the game works and to try and understand it and communicate it. It's an imperfect system, but the system has zero to do with the development of our games, except that it involves people like myself.

Possibly has been asked and answered, but I was just wondering if any though was ever given (in the past or possibly with future games) to involving marketing in the development process so that they understand how the game is being developed rather than being given a product and being told to market it. 

[RussianSpy27]

Not that it adds anything to the discussion, but I agree with absolutely everything Maria has just written.

[tmp7704]

Piecake wrote...

Your 'observations' are also reliant on a summarry of data collected by Bioware, not the actual data, the specifics, - so you have far far less data to reach a conclusion than them.

Yes, it's based on the fact that the issue of skipping already read dialogue was apparently significant enough in the testing that it warranted introduction of paraphrase system and associated workload (if nothing else, all these paraphrases won't write themselves)  This issue also don't seem to be limited to DA2, as the same solution was implemented in ME series, as well as games of other developers -- Alpha Protocol and also Witcher 2 which uses it after the first Witcher utilized the "read then watch it again" system.

On the other hand, it could be argued that Deus Ex 3 which is going with the "full text visible if you really want to know it" approach also likely had a team which did testing and collected "the actual data". So perhaps it's okay to reach varied conclusions regarding this subject.

And you are also disregarding the claims and preferences of the posters here in order to make an 'observation' that is based on a gut feeling at best and conspicuously puts your own preferences in a better light

I'm really not sure what's the point of mentioning i don't see things the exact same way they do, or that i "disregard" their preferences -- that's the nature of the preferences, we all have them different and we aren't likely to change our minds regarding them just because another person sees it differently. For the same reason it'd be quite pointless to try and "put my own preferences in a better light" -- it's not like that'd change mind of anyone who prefers having voiced protagonist.

[tmp7704]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Some attach large value. Some prefer it. Some prefer it within a specific context. 'Voice protagonist' is not a binary value. Many games I've liked had voice over for the main character and some didn't.

That said, isn't this entire discussion based on Mike saying, "People hated the voiced protagonist?" We can interpret this as 'all people' or 'some people.'

I didn't really base it on that -- in my case it was pretty much just a thought that, if people tended to skip the voiced parts if they already knew what that voice was going to say, then maybe it means that the value attached to that voice by the players isn't as large as the devs seems to have presumed. Because, as you say, i don't think it's a binary value... so the idea of this value being "on average smaller than thought, but still somewhat important" felt like something that's possible. The "on average" being there because it must've been quite noticeable reaction if it sparked all the work put to address it.

I think a voiced protagonist is going to become like graphics within computer games. Either you 'progress' or people consider you outdated and sales drop.

It's possible, although i think that the sales of Fallout: NV (something like 5 mil shipped?) may make developers reconsider if the rush there is really necessary. After all, having the extra voice work is a considerable cost, so if it's not so crucial then some games may still be done without it, and using the resources to focus on other areas instead. And consequently, that can shape the market expectations.

The fully-voiced "cinematic experience" may just as well wind up like the first push towards this sort of entertainment which took place when the CD-ROMs became popular -- that is, an oddity long since forgotten, because it turned out that people actually preferred to have decent amount of gameplay in their games even if that came at expense of the graphics, than the opposite.

I suppose it'll take few years to see either way.

To some extent, I'm defensive of BioWare. I like Mass Effect 1 and 2 with its voice protagonist. I liked the Dues Ex series. I didn't like the Witcher, but I don't think it was because of the main character's VO. I like Alpha Protocol. If they think a voice protagonist is the way to go, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I actually liked these games *and* the Witcher (although that could be due to having read the books)

I prefer the silent protagonist since it allows me to associate with the character better and be more flexible in the interpretation of his/her lines, but it's a "soft" preference, i can live with the voiced character as long as the VO isn't bad. If BioWare decides that's the only type they're going to make... oh well, not like anything can be done about it. The voiced character works decent in the games they make, i just wish it wasn't done at the expense of included content.

Modifié par tmp7704, 24 décembre 2010 - 03:13 .

[upsettingshorts]

Just to throw in a brief comment: A silent protagonist in of itself isn't a problem for me, immersion wise. The problem is inconsistency. I have no problems with a fully text game, and no problems with a fully voiced game. Unless my character is meant to be and understood by the other characters to be mute, I want to hear him or her speak if everyone else is speaking.

I don't think that's necessarily true of anyone else, though.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 24 décembre 2010 - 03:20 .

[henkez3]

The Bethany/Carver decision certainly bothers me, as I think it would be alot cooler if you could actually influence who joins your party beyond just the class you choose from the beginning, where real interaction within the game itself would decide the outcome, not the class you went with. It sucks, but thats just the way it is, and it gives me a reason to play another class on my second playthrough.

But it's always like this with games, if a developer changes too little, the fans will call them lazy and say the game is just a re-hash, if they change too much (and, seriously this varies so much from person to person) its "betraying" the fanbase, and destroying the franchise.

I certainly understand why the devs can get frustrated lol.

Modifié par henkez3, 24 décembre 2010 - 03:32 .

[RussianSpy27]

Haley Starshine wrote...

About the elves with bigger eyes and ears, and mages with devastating power made more common: That worries me a little


The only single reason DA is awesome where all other medieval-fantasy RPGs sucks dust bad is because the story is a lot more realistic and focused on its quality; instead of making 15 races and sub-races, 78 classes and Prestige classes (and adding more with every expansion) and the like that are a sure terrorism to any interesting world creation/decent literature.


Also, what blows in Forgotten Realms is that in every corner you see people flipping burgers and chopping onions with magic, and if they ever cared enough to detail the social/emotional aspect of any FR story, they would have no way to do so, because a society like that would never afford to exist... In DA, on the other hand, magic is limited and very few people do it, and they are controlled by the Templars. This makes magic possible and the game wins a lot by exploring the social/emotional side of this in the world story. (I still thought there were WAY TOO MANY magic users to confront during game, but I understand they made this to make it challenging). Putting a world-dooming all powerful mage in every encounter now will rip the whole lore to shreds.


About the elves with bigger ears and eyes, I just worry it will became a lousy mangá and get stripped of all realism lol

Good point about the mages, but there are a lot of apostates out there who managed to escape the watchful eyes of the Chantry, so let's wait and see how the game handles it. 

[Graunt]

Maria Caliban wrote...


However, people are shallow. Once they pick an acceptable 'minimum,' anything below that will be perceived as bad. When posters make threads complaining that ME 2's didn't look good enough at ultra mode on their two 30'' screens, I roll my eyes, but ten years from now, I'll probably load up ME 2 and find myself unimpressed at how dull, lifeless and muddy everything is.

You call it being shallow, I call it having standards.  ME2 looked fine for a current game, but would I think the same thing ten years from now when most assuredly everything is going to look much better?  Hardly, although I'll still recognize that it was good for it's time. A lot of people seem to act like every "new" game should have Crisis graphics and run super smooth...which is a completely unrealistic expectation.  You have to admit though (or not), that DA:O was pretty dated looking.  It took texture packs to make it "nice" to look at.

Modifié par Graunt, 24 décembre 2010 - 04:25 .

[AlanC9]

Piecake wrote...
People in this topic who prefer a voiced protagonist are telling you otherwise.  I do find it funny that you dont seem to accept the explanation on this matter from people who actually like it, but instead make 'observations' about 'other people's' preferences and reasons that conspicuously put your own preferences in a better light. 

Something like 50% of long-running forum debates seem to be based on someone simply refusing to believe that people really mean what they're saying in response.

[AlanC9]

tmp7704 wrote...
On the other hand, it could be argued that Deus Ex 3 which is going with the "full text visible if you really want to know it" approach also likely had a team which did testing and collected "the actual data". So perhaps it's okay to reach varied conclusions regarding this subject.

Without seeing DX3 it's hard to come to an opinion about its implementation, but showing the full text puts serious constraints on the writing, since PC responses have to be limited to what can be displayed. Many ME responses wouldn't fit well a console screen, and some wouldn't work without stage directions. TW1's full text works because Geralt speaks in short, direct sentences. Will the DX3 protagonist be similarly laconic?

[Maria Caliban]

IIRC in DX3, you pick the first sentence of part of the conversation, not everything that the Alex says.

Example:

NPC says: I have this gun and will shoot you!
PC choices -
1) Okay. I'll cooperate with you. What do you want?
2) I'm a cybernetic human with superhuman stamina, strength, and enough firepower to blow down a steel wall. Don't be stupid. Put it down.
3) [Attack]

The player picks 2.

Alex: I'm a cybernetic human with superhuman stamina, strength, and enough firepower to blow down a steel wall. Don't be stupid. Put it down.
NPC: [hesitant] I.. I..
Alex: [a slight whine as the blue lines in his mechanical arm start to gleam] I'm giving you five seconds. Five... four.. three...
NPC: [drops gun] Okay! Okay! Please don't hurt me.

[AlanC9]

Thanks, Maria. That sounds workable.



Is that much text acceptable on consoles?