1079 réponses à ce sujet

[Dayshadow]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

But reading a line of text, then hearing that line of text is an instant jump to the skip button for me, and an instant jump to the skip button for many people we tested the paraphrase system on, while paraphrases came back as positive and, more importantly, engaging. We saw a near-0 percentage of line skips with paraphrases, which suggested to us that they work, and work well. Hence the "stupid" paraphrasing.

Paraphrases are fine... as long as they actually capture the intent of the dialog they are supposed to represent.  If "you did good" turns out to be "you just saved yourself a world of pain" or "It's too dangerous" turns out to mean "yes, let's do it", then they become stupid paraphases.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

But reading a line of text, then hearing that line of text is an instant jump to the skip button for me, and an instant jump to the skip button for many people we tested the paraphrase system on, while paraphrases came back as positive and, more importantly, engaging. We saw a near-0 percentage of line skips with paraphrases, which suggested to us that they work, and work well. Hence the "stupid" paraphrasing.

That is appallingly poor reasoning, Mike.  People don't skip the voiced line with the paraphrase system because listening to the voiced line (for those without subtitles enabled) is the only way for the player to know what's going on.

That's like saying that throwing away all the apples in your store makes people like oranges more, because then 100% of people who buy fruit buy oranges (there now being only the one option).

That everyone fails to skip the dialogue with the paraphrase system demonstrates the problem with the paraphrase system.  No one knows what's going to happen, so they have to watch it.

If I could actually trust that the paraphrase option told me what it was my character was going to say or do, I'd probably skip it all the time.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 24 décembre 2010 - 05:36 .

[AlanC9]

Sylvius, I brought that up too. But you should probably look at Mike's subsequent post. They did ask why people were skipping. It seems that more of the skippers were like Upsettingshorts than were like you, though that post isn't as clear as I would like it to be.

[David Gaider]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
That is appallingly poor reasoning, Mike.  People don't skip the voiced line with the paraphrase system because listening to the voiced line (for those without subtitles enabled) is the only way for the player to know what's going on.

That's like saying that throwing away all the apples in your store makes people like oranges more, because then 100% of people who buy fruit buy oranges (there now being only the one option).

That everyone fails to skip the dialogue with the paraphrase system demonstrates the problem with the paraphrase system.  No one knows what's going to happen, so they have to watch it.

If I could actually trust that the paraphrase option told me what it was my character was going to say or do, I'd probably skip it all the time.

I think you're missing the point that we want people to hear the lines and the VO.

Of course, you're deliberately missing the point because you disagree with the premise. That said, I don't think we're obligated to explain it in any more detail, especially when you start off with things like suggesting we use "appallingly poor reasoning". I suggest you figure it out on your own.

[tmp7704]

AlanC9 wrote...

Thanks, Maria. That sounds workable.

Is that much text acceptable on consoles?

Maria's example is ~150-odd chars for the longest line. For reference, DAO would show up to 60 characters per line of dialogue. So that's roughly equivalent of 3 lines of DAO text... in other words, quite workable, imo.

And if i recall right the system works like, it shows the paraphrase for each line and full version of line you're about to select.

[FieryDove]

David Gaider wrote...

I think you're missing the point that we want people to hear the lines and the VO.

Of course, you're deliberately missing the point because you disagree with the premise. That said, I don't think we're obligated to explain it in any more detail, especially when you start off with things like suggesting we use "appallingly poor reasoning". I suggest you figure it out on your own.

I'm wondering though...

If you had given the warden facial animations like in JE sad, happy, angry that would have quelled quite a bit of complaints. I saw some complaints about the silent warden but it was along the lines of "Stone faced" "Blank faced" etc. Might have helped quite a bit.

Eh what's done can't be undone. sigh

[Collider]

My perspective on the Bethany/Carver determination.

[Collider]

IMO, there should be an option to know what Hawke will say before choosing an option. It's less "cinematic," but it would be an option for those who favor roleplaying over raw cinematics.

[David Gaider]

Collider wrote...

My perspective on the Bethany/Carver determination.

That's great. My response to that exact comment earlier.

Perhaps in the future you might want to check for these before leaping to conclusions.

[Shady314]

David Gaider wrote...
I think you're missing the point that we want people to hear the lines and the VO.

And damn what the customers want. How dare they choose to read subtitles rather than listen to our wonderful expressive talking heads. Force them to listen to it! Maybe you should stop taking this route where games need to be movies to tell a good story. I don't believe that's the case.

[Maria Caliban]

Collider wrote...
If this is true, that's pretty lame. How arbitrary that Hawke's class determines who lives and dies. The mortality of Hawke's siblings should be determined what by choices s/he makes. I understand why they did it, for gameplay balance purposes, but I would much prefer it to be story purposes.

It's not lame. And it is for story purposes.

The metagame implications are a bit wonky for me, but I'm cool with that if the writers think it leads to a better story.

Shady314 wrote...

And damn what the customers want. How dare they choose to read subtitles rather than listen to our wonderful expressive talking heads. Force them to listen to it! Maybe you should stop taking this route where games need to be movies to tell a good story. I don't believe that's the case.

There's nothing to keep you from turning on the subtitles if you want to read it.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 24 décembre 2010 - 06:28 .

[Collider]

David Gaider wrote...

Collider wrote...

My perspective on the Bethany/Carver determination.

That's great. My response to that exact comment earlier.

Perhaps in the future you might want to check for these before leaping to conclusions.

Hence, "if this is true"
If this is for story purposes, that's great. I can see the utility of only one of siblings being a mage, story wise. Especially with the apostate angle.

[Shady314]

Maria Caliban wrote...
There's nothing to keep you from turning on the subtitles if you want to read it.

Thank you for the tip. I always do.

[David Gaider]

Shady314 wrote...
And damn what the customers want. How dare they choose to read subtitles rather than listen to our wonderful expressive talking heads. Force them to listen to it! Maybe you should stop taking this route where games need to be movies to tell a good story. I don't believe that's the case.

You can read the subtitles if you wish, and skip the VO. That option is there, as Mike mentioned. We're not going to set it up so that nobody will do so, however, because they've already read the lines. This is a cinematic game, and that's what we're making-- despite "what the customers want". You don't speak for all our customers, and we neither wish to nor possibly even could satisfy every person's desires. Maybe you should consider if this is the sort of game you actually want rather than bitterly sniping at every opportunity.

Modifié par David Gaider, 24 décembre 2010 - 06:31 .

[Shady314]

David Gaider wrote...
You can read the subtitles if you wish, and skip the VO. That option is there, as Mike mentioned. We're not going to set it up so that nobody will do so, however, because they've already read the lines. This is a cinematic game, and that's what we're making-- despite "what the customers want". You don't speak for all our customers, and we neither wish to nor possibly even could satisfy every person's desires. Maybe you should consider if this is the sort of game you actually want rather than bitterly sniping at every opportunity.

Never claimed I spoke for anyone besides myself. I merely refered to anyone who prefered to readthe line so you know what words will actually come out of "your" character's mouth.
I am considering that.

Modifié par Shady314, 24 décembre 2010 - 06:33 .

[Dave of Canada]

Shady314 wrote...

Never claimed I spoke for anyone besides myself.

"And damn what the customers want." seems to imply more than just you.

[Shady314]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Shady314 wrote...

Never claimed I spoke for anyone besides myself.

"And damn what the customers want." seems to imply more than just you.

Implications are not statements. Even on internet message boards. Anyways I clarified.

[David Gaider]

Shady314 wrote...
Never claimed I spoke for anyone besides myself. I merely refered to anyone who prefered to readthe line so you know what words will actually come out of "your" character's mouth.

So you pull the "I'm a customer" card, despite what I said about us not being willing to nor able to please everyone? I suggest you see how the paraphrases and icon combination work out for you-- and if they don't, by all means feel free to snipe about it at every opportunity in the future. I don't think we labor under the delusion that our games are going to appeal to every single person.

[Shady314]

David Gaider wrote...
I don't think we labor under the delusion that our games are going to appeal to every single person.

Of course not. You're not insane.

[Ubasti]

So, how much did DA:O sell, again? If it was so outdated, old-fashioned and all that, how come anyone bought it in the first place? And why it was so much loved? Just some questions that game to my head while reading that article. Other thing was, that I probably need a new computer to play DA2.

And what is wrong to have an invisible person rolling the dice behind the scene? That's roleplaying game for you, guys. Though I do like the fact, that mages and archers can melee, too, not just try to use ranged attacks all the time.

And the writer of the article couldn't tell the difference between an elf and a human? Maybe she needs new glasses... Or maybe I just have so outdated computer that my low graphics just made the differences to look more prominent. Although since I already spent time with DA:O just looking around at that "...bit dated..." "...remarkably brown place...", because to me it looked nice. Maybe I need new glasses?

And I've always disliked elves with extra large ears and eyes. Why do elves always have to look like the standard that is sold out to us?

And why would have people hated the silent protagonist? Most of us have been used to having a silent protagonist. The RPGs we have played and loved usually have silent protagonists. As is said before here, the hate goes mostly to the expressionless protagonist, not the silence. I have enough imagination of my own to imagine the voice for my main character. It's much harder for some reason imagine the expression, since the face is right there, in front of me, and I'm watching it. But since it's done, I'm just expressing my thoughts on it. And hoping that the silent protagonist will return at some point to some game, if not to DA (because it will save some money to make other things better in a game).

And what comes to the conversation wheel, well, I've not yet played ME (it just hasn't felt like a game for me at all), so I don't know how it's going to be, but from what I've heard this far, it seems I'm going to save before every conversation, and probable reload the save, when something goes terribly wrong... I just like to be in control of what my character says, completely in control. Somehow I've gotten the feeling that many people on this forum agrees. Then again, I'm not sure if Hawke is ever going to feel like my character, so maybe I'll just let her/him do what ever it is that pleases her/him. And watch the game like a movie, where I just push the buttons occasionally.

What I do like is the friends/rivals system. Sounds much more interesting than the approval-system in DA:O. I just hope it works the way it's described.

Modifié par Ubasti, 24 décembre 2010 - 06:58 .

[David Gaider]

Ubasti wrote...
So, how much did DA:O sell, again? If it was so outdated, old-fashioned and all that, how come anyone bought it in the first place? And why it was so much loved? Just some questions that game to my head while reading that article.

I think it's possible to love something despite its flaws. In fact, I think that's true for most computer games I've ever played-- I'll forgive their flaws because of all the other stuff I liked. It's a logical fallacy to reach the conclusion that because I liked a game that every single feature it had is clearly good and there's no room for improvement.

Whether we agree on what needs to be improved is really the question. Chances are the answer is no, but I don't think starting from a standpoint of "it sold well so therefore change nothing and just add stuff" is really helpful... at least not from out perspective. That's not what we're interested in doing.

And the writer of the article couldn't tell the difference between an elf and a human? Maybe she needs new glasses... Or maybe I just have so outdated computer that my low graphics just made the differences to look more prominent. Although since I already spent time with DA:O just looking around at that "...bit dated..." "...remarkably brown place...", because to me it looked nice. Maybe I need new glasses?

I would suggest discarding the rose-coloured ones, but that might sound cynical.

Modifié par David Gaider, 24 décembre 2010 - 06:57 .

[Sharn01]

I really think the main problem with the silent protagonist in Origins was that his or her face was just so blank and stared unmoving at whoever he was talking to. If you dont take the time to add emotions to the characters face you should not focus on it so often, it would have been better to pull the camera back over the wardens shoulder to show her and who she was taking to while choosing dialog then have the camera focus on a blank face for however long the player takes to choose dialog.

[Dave of Canada]

Ubasti wrote...

And the writer of the article couldn't tell the difference between an elf and a human? Maybe she needs new glasses...

Maybe it's just me but a lot of elves I thought were human until dialogue said otherwise, Iona for example:

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 24 décembre 2010 - 07:00 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

David Gaider wrote...

I think you're missing the point that we want people to hear the lines and the VO.

I know that's what you want, the once the game leaves your hands the players have no reason to care what you want.

Of course, you're deliberately missing the point because you disagree with the premise.

True.  I think you should want the players to feel full ownership of their characters, regardless of how that works best for them.

That said, if there is a writing team that can make the paraphrase system work, it is this writing team.

However, If this writing team cannot make it work then the paraphrase system simply isn't salvageable.

That said, I don't think we're obligated to explain it in any more detail, especially when you start off with things like suggesting we use "appallingly poor reasoning".

Mike's conclusion was not supported by his stated premises.

[Wissenschaft]

Simple fact is bioware wants to make DA2 into a more cinematic experience. This is taking a risk since its a big change from Origin. However, from how great Leliana's Song was even as just a DLC, I have great faith in DA2.



Speaking of the DLC. Leliana also serves as an unreliable narriator. I wonder if this DLC was a little experiment in how DA2 unreliable narriator and VO for the main character would work?