1079 réponses à ce sujet

[Leonia]

Iona had one of my favourite non-armour outfits in Origins. Hope we get more variety in clothing with DA 2

[Ubasti]

David Gaider wrote...
I think it's possible to love something despite its flaws. In fact, I think that's true for most computer games I've ever played--

...

Whether we agree on what needs to be improved is really the question..

I agree with the first sentence - all the games I've played have had their faults. They can be ignored, if the game is otherwise good. I was mostly making the remark about the article, not the coming DA2, actually. I just have this dislike toward articles that claim something and then don't seem to offer any kind of proof to what the claim is, other than that the writer thought it was so.

And to that other sentence, might be so that we'd disagree. Or not. For me the story is the most important part of any game I play. The second is immersion to that game, and that comes from the characters mostly. If there are good characters in DA2, and good story, I'm going to like it, other things don't matter that much. I've played other games that have had only one protagonist (and only male, btw) and had VO, and I liked it. Maybe I'm just so old-fashioned myself, that sometimes I'd like some things to stay the way they are. Or at least to have more options when I buy a game.

David Gaider wrote...
I would suggest discarding the rose-coloured ones, but that might sound cynical.

I think I'm coming to the age where I am trying to get back those rose-coloured ones - would be a nice change.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Collider wrote...

IMO, there should be an option to know what Hawke will say before choosing an option. It's less "cinematic," but it would be an option for those who favor roleplaying over raw cinematics.

I wonder how difficult it would be for a mod to add that.

The problem, though, is that a single paraphrase option may well lead to a lengthy back-and-forth conversation wherein Hawke says entirely new things without player input.  How would you show that to the player?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Wissenschaft wrote...

Speaking of the DLC. Leliana also serves as an unreliable narriator. I wonder if this DLC was a little experiment in how DA2 unreliable narriator and VO for the main character would work?

If Leliana's Song didn't require patch 1.03, I'd have played it by now and wouldn't be working from a position of relative ignorance.

I'm still very annoyed that such experiments have that sort of barrier to entry.

[AlanC9]

Patches are a barrier?

[Maria Caliban]

How is Leliana an unreliable narrator?

AlanC9 wrote...

Patches are a barrier?

If they change an aspect of the game you like or they introduce new bugs, yes.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 24 décembre 2010 - 07:21 .

[MerinTB]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Collider wrote...
IMO, there should be an option to know what Hawke will say before choosing an option. It's less "cinematic," but it would be an option for those who favor roleplaying over raw cinematics.

I wonder how difficult it would be for a mod to add that.

The problem, though, is that a single paraphrase option may well lead to a lengthy back-and-forth conversation wherein Hawke says entirely new things without player input.  How would you show that to the player?

It'll be impossible to get rid of the wheel with a mod that isn't ridiculously extensive...
and like you say it'd be hard to make a mod that accounts for the kind of dialog situation you give an example of, where you choose one response but a back-and-forth conversation cut-scene-type exchange occurs...

but....

It may be easier to mod out MC VO.  I could be way wrong on that, but I think it'd be easier than getting rid of the wheel or showing what your dialog choice will actually have the character say - (preload the subtitles with the mod and display them somehow?)

---

It was pretty quick after the release of NV that the 3rd person POV camera controls mod was released - and that "saved the game" for me as I strongly dislike FP POV, and the fixed camera 3rd person POV  with the off-center targeting reticle was very, very annoying.

I think I'd be willing to pay like $15 for a "remove MC VO" mod... and I'd pay another $15 to lose the wheel.

[Leonia]

Maria Caliban wrote...

How is Leliana an unreliable narrator?

She changed the story. The firs time she tells it (in Origins) the whole thing took place in Orlais. Maybe unreliable isn't the right word to describe her though. She just likes to embellish and change things to be more dramatic.

[Maria Caliban]

I'd consider that more 'retcon because BioWare doesn't have the art assets for Orlais sitting around.'

What does she embellish?

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 24 décembre 2010 - 07:26 .

[MerinTB]

leonia42 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

How is Leliana an unreliable narrator?

She changed the story. The firs time she tells it (in Origins) the whole thing took place in Orlais. Maybe unreliable isn't the right word to describe her though. She just likes to embellish and change things to be more dramatic.

http://en.wikipedia....liable_narrator

Like the guy narrating the movie 300.  Like how we know Varric will be.  Anytime you have someone telling a story and you realize they are lying, exaggerating, or misleading you on purpose - they are an unreliable narrator.

[Matchy Pointy]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I'd consider that more 'retcon because BioWare doesn't have the art assets for Orlais sitting around.'

What does she embellish?

If I remember correctly, she ends it with saying it wasn't neccecarily that his was the way it happend, but that the morals in the story was correct (though this isn't a correct qoute, I'm probably not going to start the game to check it now, but she said something to that regard).

[Dagiz]

I wonder how many different ways and times Mike and Dave and anyone else from Bio have to say something before it some people realize what they want the game to be just isn't going to happen.


and as an addendum, whatever happened to suspension of disbelief?

Modifié par Dagiz, 24 décembre 2010 - 07:37 .

[Wissenschaft]

leonia42 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

How is Leliana an unreliable narrator?

She changed the story. The firs time she tells it (in Origins) the whole thing took place in Orlais. Maybe unreliable isn't the right word to describe her though. She just likes to embellish and change things to be more dramatic.

Its not just that, she ends the story without telling what exactly happen in the end. Furthermore, She implys that she changes the ending or simply leaves it open ended depending on her audience.  Of course, we have played Origins so we know that in the end things are left unfinished and we the player can help her "finished" things but the audience does not. So it leaves the audience reflecting on what they would have done in Leliana's shoes which is a poetic ending to the story, very fitting for a bard.

As for patches, I've not had an issue with any of the patches, and aren't we at 1.04 now? I would suggest trying Leliana's Song out, if DA2 is like that DLC then I'm going to love the game. 

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 24 décembre 2010 - 07:36 .

[Fishy]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

And, of course, if you don't care about those, there's subtitles, speed reading and the skip button. Hooray for options.

Are the subtittle  going to stay after the dialogue's gone?I normaly play with the orignal voice(english but  me french)so sometime i have to read the subtittle at the end  in case i did not catch something.But i normaly don't watch them during the animation.Because than i focus on the subtittle and not the cinematic.

In those game when the subtittle phase out .. it's pisse me off.I mean rpg.



Yea edit ..... Hmmm Bioware never let's them phase out..Of course if it's a pre-recorded cutscene or cgi...Hmm
Just forgot that i asked.I'm tired.

Modifié par Suprez30, 24 décembre 2010 - 07:37 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maria Caliban wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Patches are a barrier?

If they change an aspect of the game you like or they introduce new bugs, yes.

Right.

1.02 changed some things I didn't like (spell nerfs), but it was possible to mod those back the way they were.

1.03's unwanted changes, however, were to the engine, and thus there was nothing I could do.  Add to that the (admittedly anecdotal) reports of instability, and 1.03 was a bridge too far - at least until I was finished with the parts of DAO I could play without it (which is a lot, given how many different characters I have).

[Wissenschaft]

Sylvius the Mad, I'd strongly suggest that you get the patch just to try Leliana's Song for yourself and then remove the patch if you really don't want it.

Honestly, the spell nerfs were meaningless to me, Cone of Cold is still one of the best spells in the game. Paralyze/Mass Paralysis + Walking Bomb + (if need) Cone of Cold is enough to end almost all the battles in the game quickly.

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 24 décembre 2010 - 08:55 .

[Kail Ashton]

I'm definetly liking the rival system and the diff options it opens up, i'll have alot of fun with that bit of variety i'm sure, i also like the romance rival option

[In Exile]

tmp7704 wrote...
Wait, the presentation cannot be considered to have value of its own because if script was better, then the overall experience would too, be better? This doesn't rule out both components providing their own value (if S increases then S + P increases)

I am saying your conception is wrong. It isn't S+P. It is SP. When you're talking about a high level concept like the phenomenology of enjoyment, you have to come up with your theory first and then fit it to the data because we don't have any other way to gather the data (because of the theory-landeness of observation).

In this case, I am saying there are good reasons to believe that experience and content cannot be separated. You are saying otherwise.

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Mike's conclusion was not supported by his stated premises.

Like just about any kind of empirical investigaton, deductive reason is useless.

[Seagloom]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I'd consider that more 'retcon because BioWare doesn't have the art assets for Orlais sitting around.'

What does she embellish?

That is likely true, but the in-game reasoning paints her as an intentionally unreliable narrator with a flair for drama. I still consider Leliana my favorite Origins character after playing "Leliana's Song", but the whole experience diminished my opinion of her. That I erased it awhile ago makes getting exact quotes a pain, but the gist of it is what Matchy Pointy wrote. She admits embellishing the tale while claiming the heart of her story remains intact. Leliana's Origins recounting made it sound like she fled Orlais in a hurry to get away from Marjolaine and the guard. In "Leliana's Song" she guns for Marjolaine to confront her one last time, and it closes in a bloodless, melodramatic monologue. I found that very strange considering Marjolaine was paranoid enough to keep tabs on her later.

I suppose the DLC can be dimissed outright as either falsely told or a retcon. Alternatively, one can wonder if Origins's recounting was false instead. Either way I left the experience with my trust in Leliana shaken. As a player I will always wonder whether or not she was honest with the Warden, regardless of any claims of romantic affection.

[Brockololly]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I'd consider that more 'retcon because BioWare doesn't have the art assets for Orlais sitting around.'
 

Yeah, its likely the same reason why in all the epilogues of Origins Morrigan is seen headed off towards the Frostbacks and to Orlais (with her even insinuating herself in Empress Celine's court in one) and yet Witch Hunt has her come back to Ferelden.

[lazuli]

leonia42 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

How is Leliana an unreliable narrator?

She changed the story. The firs time she tells it (in Origins) the whole thing took place in Orlais. Maybe unreliable isn't the right word to describe her though. She just likes to embellish and change things to be more dramatic.

No, embellishing and changing things would be evidence of an unreliable narrator.  She doesn't have to flat-out lie to qualify.

[RyuAzai]

I really only have been reading the bioware comments here.



But my two cents is I ****ing love voice acting, and what it brings to the table of video games. I love reading, I go through books like they are candy, but when I hear my character or another character speak I can really 'feel' the game, the tension, and the emotion in the scene. Especially if the voice actor is very adept, which bioware is known for its great casting of such actors.



I mean we are all humans here, being able to use more then one sense(hearing, seeing, etc) just adds another layer to the experience.

[Mr. Man]

I sure how Kirkwall is nice

[HolyJellyfish]

History itself is built on unreliable narration. Unless you are looking at facts and figures, personal stories are always going to be one sided and unreliable since they rarely take into consideration outside accounts.



Leliana's Song seemed unreliable to me, if only because Leliana constantly reminds the player that what she says may not be full but it is what she experienced, though different in Varric's vein in that he is always corrected by another party versus Leliana who is not (and therefore you had to take what she says for truth, though she suggests care). It gave the story a realistic and still mysterious quality. I like the idea that Leliana's Song may have gone hand in hand with preparing the player for an outside narrator, but I somewhat doubt it since there isn't a third party (Like Cassandra) to double check facts of consistencies.



And perhaps maybe that is why Cassandra was added, because upon developing a test like Leliana's Song, they realized there needed to be another person to stop the story teller and ask 'why' in place of the player.



Of course, I am over speculating. I love to read, and Dragon Age is like one big cinematic book to me. Tearing apart a strong concept and examining the smaller parts is a fun discovery, even if it maybe off track at times.