1079 réponses à ce sujet

[MerinTB]

Seagloom wrote...
That is likely true, but the in-game reasoning paints her as an intentionally unreliable narrator with a flair for drama. I still consider Leliana my favorite Origins character after playing "Leliana's Song", but the whole experience diminished my opinion of her. That I erased it awhile ago makes getting exact quotes a pain, but the gist of it is what Matchy Pointy wrote. She admits embellishing the tale while claiming the heart of her story remains intact. Leliana's Origins recounting made it sound like she fled Orlais in a hurry to get away from Marjolaine and the guard. In "Leliana's Song" she guns for Marjolaine to confront her one last time, and it closes in a bloodless, melodramatic monologue. I found that very strange considering Marjolaine was paranoid enough to keep tabs on her later.

I suppose the DLC can be dimissed outright as either falsely told or a retcon. Alternatively, one can wonder if Origins's recounting was false instead. Either way I left the experience with my trust in Leliana shaken. As a player I will always wonder whether or not she was honest with the Warden, regardless of any claims of romantic affection.

I didn't need Leliana's Song to make me dislike Leliana...

I played a "mostly" goody-goody my first time through with my female City Elf rogue, and Leliana was like a sister to Tyrri (I didn't use her in my party so I didn't do her side quest) and I bought her as having a dark past but having reformed and being a very good person overall.
My power-hungry male human mage second playthrough had little to do with her.
My third play-through, my male Dwarf Noble warrior who was honorable but wanted people to be true to their nature, romanced Leliana and it was this playthrough that I did her side quest and with Lurhan encouraged her to examine her feelings and be true to herself (in a strictly non-Polonius way) and then what I consider - at best the "other side", at worst the "true side" - her true nature shown through...
and I decided I really despised the character.

On retrospect it is most likely simply an artifact of the choices you can make in the game and how your warden can influence the party members, and it may have been the game designers intention that Leliana was to mold to what the player of the game (on one playthrough, as most gamers never finish any games) wanted her to be for them...
but in the moment as it happened, and overall how it shaped my perspective of the character, I see her as dishonest, untrustworthy, a manipulator and someone who just pretends to be whatever the powerful person she has currently attached herself to wants her to be.  Like a prostitute, in a sense, if you disregard the sex part (though, hey, she'll be chaste or wanton as her current "liege" dictates as far as that goes as well)....

So I don't only consider her an unreliable narrator (even without Leliana's Song experience) but I consider her a geniunely deceitful and unlikeable character.

And it's experiences like forming this opinion of her that makes me question replaying these kinds of games, because sometimes seeing the same character do opposite actions with varying morals and such really weakens the character overall for me.

[Addai]

I'm interested in seeing how the framed narrative works out, but it does seem to add an extra layer of distance between the player and Hawke. If you were really playing Hawke, you would know what actually happened and wouldn't need Varric to tell the story. Maybe the trade-off will be worth it, though, especially for those who don't mind the VO and dialogue wheel.

And I agree with Merin about Leliana's Song.  That's how I saw the character anyway in Origins, as deceitful and manipulative, maybe not out of malice so much as a desire to be loved/ accepted.   I find her creepy.

Modifié par Addai67, 24 décembre 2010 - 06:09 .

[RussianSpy27]

David Gaider wrote...

Ubasti wrote...
So, how much did DA:O sell, again? If it was so outdated, old-fashioned and all that, how come anyone bought it in the first place? And why it was so much loved? Just some questions that game to my head while reading that article.

I think it's possible to love something despite its flaws. In fact, I think that's true for most computer games I've ever played-- I'll forgive their flaws because of all the other stuff I liked. It's a logical fallacy to reach the conclusion that because I liked a game that every single feature it had is clearly good and there's no room for improvement.

Whether we agree on what needs to be improved is really the question. Chances are the answer is no, but I don't think starting from a standpoint of "it sold well so therefore change nothing and just add stuff" is really helpful... at least not from out perspective. That's not what we're interested in doing.

Mr Gaider, 

I completely understand your point and agree that BioWare can improve its game in a way the experienced designers see fit, despite its financial success or lack thereof and that a game can be loved despite its cons. If they deemed lack of VO to be a con, they could go ahead and change that, especially in a game like DA2 where the plot centers around one specific hero named Hawke. 

However, If I were to offer a personal opinion of one of the main reasons why DA:O was so popular, I'd say that the time, effort and novelty that went into creating the 6 diverse Origin backgrounds, filled with lore and subsequent consequences significantly caught attention of fans and critics alike. It was also stated multiple times that lack of VO allowed for significantly greater number of player options, so the developers knew what they were designing - VO was sacrificed for greater player options, which then materialized as a very successful game. 

I strongly doubt the first game would have attracted as much acclaim with only one human character's story, though the developers could have made the story to be about a VO hero - "The great Warden named Hawke who was the noble son/daughter of Arl Cousland who proceeded to fight the evil darkspawn."  

That's why I don't quite understand why the lack of VO is now so blatantly being called a vice and a blemish, which was overlooked because other aspects of DA:O were great. Before DA:O came out and in DA:O FAQ we were told that VO has limitations and lack thereof allows for more player options; now we're told lack of VO is simply called a flaw. You made a sober decision to cut VO for player options - solid, realistic and affordable decision that brought us all of the interesting origin stories. Why call it a flaw? As per DA:O's FAQ, VO can be called a flaw too. It was not so much a weakness as a tradeoff. 

In DA2, the tradeoff is reversed, and we'll have a great story with one hero/origin so it doesn't need 6 PCs. DA:O needed 6 PCs, so it was difficult to get VO for it.  

Modifié par RussianSpy27, 24 décembre 2010 - 08:04 .

[MerinTB]

Framed narrative worked very well in Alpha Protocol...
but Thorton wasn't an unreliable narrator (though he could have been a hostile witness, depending on how your version of playing the game set up that questioning session - interrogation, fact finding, friendly...)

I would agree about distance from Hawke but, again, I've had this view shift recently about BioWare. I guess I was always forgiving / ignoring all the obstacles they put in the way of me playing the game how I wanted it to be, and with DA2 marketing and information being released I have had to accept that BioWare rarely ever tried to give me the RP experience I wanted and instead have given me amazing adventure game experiences with a largely predefined character (IMO - I'm not arguing the meaning of the word here, I'm arguing my view of it) that I get to make a lot of interesting tweaks to.

If I came at a racing game looking for a FPS I'd be disappointed, but if I was looking for a racing game I'd probably have fun.

Coming at BioWare games (especially current ones) looking for (important part here) what I want from a RPG has often lead to frustration DESPITE the games being good to great. Now that I've shifted my perspective on to accepting what kind of games BioWare is making / wants to make / fans want from BioWare... I can fully appreciate BioWare games for what they are and NOT lament that they are not my ideal games.

It's a good shift.

Modifié par MerinTB, 24 décembre 2010 - 06:11 .

[Piecake]

Addai67 wrote...

I'm interested in seeing how the framed narrative works out, but it does seem to add an extra layer of distance between the player and Hawke. If you were really playing Hawke, you would know what actually happened and wouldn't need Varric to tell the story. Maybe the trade-off will be worth it, though, especially for those who don't mind the VO and dialogue wheel.

I am hoping that it helps facilitate a drastic branching narrative.  II mean, if the whole purpose of the framed narrative is to let the player see the consequences of their choices while playing the game, I have to imagine that the story would have to have a bunch of different paths.  I'm just hoping that they are numererous and significant and can dramatically alter the story. 

If it does that, I think it would be totally worth it.  Of course, I have always felt that distance so that really doesnt change much for me

[Seagloom]

@Merin - I saw it differently. "Leliana's Song" lowered my estimation of the character, but I still put her on par with Alistair. The difference is I still kinda like Leliana a little whereas my next favorite character, Alistair, I mostly dislike. Unlike Leliana I feel the weight of his flaws crush his positive aspects.

I think Addai's description of being deceitful out of a desire for acceptance makes sense. It may be why I still like her somewhat. In my eyes Leliana comes across as a broken woman. She lost her mom early in life, was raised as a sort of servant by a venerable woman, and seemingly went straight into the bardic life from there. She did not suffer any serious hardship until Marjolaine turned on her, and I do not think she ever recovers from it fully. Her belief in her dream vision, the Maker, and agreeing to whatever the Warden advises tell me that yes, she needs a crutch. She will attack the Warden if the ashes are defiled, or fall into line if the Warden "hardens" her and passes an intimidate check in that same scene. Leliana puts her chosen crutch above all else. I see that level of convinction as admirable in a sense, but it also comes across as pathetic. It could be that or another aspect of her character that brings out my nurturing side when it comes to Leliana. I always felt bad whenever I had to dump her, or treat her poorly because it was what my character would do.

That is also why I find Alistair insufferable in comparison. I can forgive Leliana's moments of duplicity. It may not make her an ideal friend or lover, but at least she is not a serious threat to the Warden, Ferelden, or Thedas as a whole. I cannot say the same for a character such as Morrigan and her likely ignoble intentions, or Alistair, who is also easily influenced, petty, and immature. In any case, I will pipe down about Leliana here. This is veering way off topic.

Modifié par Seagloom, 24 décembre 2010 - 06:46 .

[tmp7704]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Maybe it's just me but a lot of elves I thought were human until dialogue said otherwise, Iona for example:

I found the height difference of head or so difficult cue to miss.

[tmp7704]

In Exile wrote...

I am saying your conception is wrong. It isn't S+P. It is SP.

Yes; since i think there's instances where the SP model fails to work, i don't agree with your view it's accurate. Since you think the instances which i have on mind actually work different and conform with your idea, you disagree. That's about it.
 

In this case, I am saying there are good reasons to believe that experience and content cannot be separated. You are saying otherwise.

Aye; haven't read anything so far i'd really consider one of these supposed good reasons, so i find it difficult to change my mind on this subject and accept the alternative model which i think doesn't work (see above)

[AlanC9]

Isn't Iona the first elf you actually meet if you play first as a HN? You don't know that's what her height means yet.

[Seagloom]

Possibly. She might be the fifth elf you meet if taking the route that brings you in contact with Ser Gilmore and Dog. There are two elves in the kitchen with Nan. There are also two elves (with obviously elven ears) tidying up an unlocked room down the hall from the castle kitchen.

[tmp7704]

AlanC9 wrote...

Isn't Iona the first elf you actually meet if you play first as a HN? You don't know that's what her height means yet.

I suppose if you play the HN origin first and completely avoid looking at elves in the character creator, it's possible to make such mistake. But i don't think it's very plausible that one would remain ignorant in this matter for long.

[MerinTB]

Seagloom wrote...
@Merin - I saw it differently. "Leliana's Song" lowered my estimation of
the character, but I still put her on par with Alistair. The difference
is I still kinda like Leliana a little whereas my next favorite
character, Alistair, I mostly dislike. Unlike Leliana I feel the weight
of his flaws crush his positive aspects.

I think Addai's
description of being deceitful out of a desire for acceptance makes
sense. It may be why I still like her somewhat. In my eyes Leliana comes
across as a broken woman. She lost her mom early in life, was raised as
a sort of servant by a venerable woman, and seemingly went straight
into the bardic life from there. She did not suffer any serious hardship
until Marjolaine turned on her, and I do not think she ever recovers
from it fully. Her belief in her dream vision, the Maker, and agreeing
to whatever the Warden advises tell me that yes, she needs a crutch. She
will attack the Warden if the ashes are defiled, or fall into line if
the Warden "hardens" her and passes an intimidate check in that same
scene. Leliana puts her chosen crutch above all else. I see that level
of convinction as admirable in a sense, but it also comes across as
pathetic. It could be that or another aspect of her character that
brings out my nurturing side when it comes to Leliana. I always felt bad
whenever I had to dump her, or treat her poorly because it was what my
character would do.

That is also why I find Alistair insufferable
in comparison. I can forgive Leliana's moments of duplicity. It may not
make her an ideal friend or lover, but at least she is not a serious
threat to the Warden, Ferelden, or Thedas as a whole. I cannot say the
same for a character such as Morrigan and her likely ignoble intentions,
or Alistair, who is also easily influenced, petty, and immature. In any
case, I will pipe down about Leliana here. This is veering way off
topic.

This is what I find interesting (I'm not saying your views are wrong or dumb, just interesting) -

You seem to somewhat accept/tolerate/forgive Leliana due to her upbringing, despite her having escaped that past and tried living as "good and pure" a live as she could since coming to Ferelden (or was she just actually hiding in the last place she thought anyone'd look for her?), even when she reverts to that old lifestyle at the drop of a couple lines of conversation...
where she clearly knows of civilized customs and mores and such quite intimately her whole life...

but you do not accept the argument some use to "forgive" or "accept" Morrigan that she was isolated, raised in the wild where really the vast majority of her contact with people outside of Flemeth were people coming to kill her "mother", and it wasn't until she was old enough to go off exploring on her own that she had any exposure to non-barbaric people (meaning people living in the city as opposed to the wild) without her mother there to give commentary or those people seeking to kill herself or her mother...
and that contact was limited and by her own words confusing...

so when you are raised by one person, all your formative years are spent with that one person and you have no other influences... where the majority of the other people you have met have constantly been trying to kill your mother, the person who raised you, protected you, and the only person who ever showed any concern about you...
and when you consider that person is Flemeth...

I'm surprised that Morrigan didn't EAT Alistair the first night at camp.  As in shift to a spider and devour him, or fry him with flame than gnaw on his bones by the campfire.

This isn't me saying I accept the argument that "how you were raised is who you will turn out to be" - nor that I offer that as a reasonable excuse for Morrigan's behavior or personality... BUT I have read you explicitly dismiss that argument for Morrigan and yet use, at least to me, a reasonably similar argument to defend Leliana - where that argument seems weaker for for the assassin nun than for the swamp witch.

---

In anycase, on a personal level, I far more dislike people who just morph for the attention of others and for their own personal benefit
than those who are true to their nature and how they were raised, even if that nature is a bad one.

Modifié par MerinTB, 24 décembre 2010 - 07:51 .

[standardpack]

You know what I find funny? All these people are whining and complaining about such a small flaw but they are still going to buy the game anyway. 'Course I can't blame them, I did my share of complaining too (witch hunt before and after, bugs not being fixed.) But despite all that I was still able to enjoy the game even though I was dissapointed at some parts. And besides that DA is one of the games that let's you make A LOT of decisions that effect the game, more so than any game I have played. So I just wanted to let you know bioware that you still have fans that have faith in you.

[Sanguinerin]

Since there's talk of voice-over a couple of pages back, I just want to say my one and only problem with it: having a voice that fits your character! I personally like VO as I do like to watch the scenes unfold before me, but it's a real shock when you make a character and they make their first sound and you just go, "Whoa!" in a bug-eyed fashion. My first Commander Shepard (I didn't buy ME until long after I played DAO and I hadn't paid any attention to ME publicity) did not fit the voice. My Shepard looked more... "gentle"? The voice was more direct than it probably should have been. This was my male Shepard.

It's nothing game-breaking though. You get used to it. I went back and tried making another Shepard, but I didn't like any of the faces as much as my first so I just stuck with that. I also would have liked a more feminine female Shepard, but again, I did as I pleased with the appearances and the voices settled in after some time playing. I don't think it ever set in that I was constructing a military soldier kind of person.
The pacifist in me doesn't construct those well.

I'm just fairly adaptable I suppose. Having the look I liked and the voice to read lines for me outweighed the fact that the voices didn't quite sound as right with the appearance I was going for.

[Seagloom]

@Merin - I do not accept/tolerate/forgive her based on her upbringing. I simply see how it did not prepare for the intrigue of a bardic life. Playing "Leliana's Song" it was clear she never really understood how serious the Game was until it personally came back to bite her in the ass. I do not believe Leliana's upbringing was formative of her personality. Her tastes in fashion, singing and dancing skills, yes, but her duplicitous side and love of intrigue was clearly nurtured afterward by Marjolaine.

The difference between Leliana and Morrigan is how they each approached their pivotal moments. For Leliana, it was Marjolaine's betrayal. That betrayal was so traumatic for her, she fled to another country and shut herself down in a small church for years. Survival was likely part of why she hid out there, but in time Leliana was forced to ask herself difficult questions about the life she lived. She realized being a bard might not have been the most moral or fulfilling way to life. Meeting Marjolaine again drags her back to that vulnerable period after the betrayal, and leaves her in a vulnerable state where her new best friend and(or) love interest can influence her one way or another after making their pitch.

My lack of sympathy for Morrigan has more to do with her striking me as an immoral person, regardless of any influence the Warden has. She had a much tougher life and was strongly influenced by a seemingly very evil entity in human form. Morrigan is formed completely by Flemeth in way perhaps even deeper than Leliana was by Marjolaine. However, Morrigan time and again takes the selfish route. Leliana, flawed as she may be, did not continually advocate what I saw as flat out evil solutions to problems. I could forgive Morrigan that based on her upbringing and fighting for survival against templars. The upbringing justification just loses its strength as she grows closer to the Warden and regards him as either a love, or claims she is a sister in the case of a female character. In her most vulnerable moments, when she is most receptive to possibly changing her ways to help a friend or lover, she decides to act selfishly again; and unlike Leliana, Morrigan does it with no prodding whatsoever. Morrigan makes the call herself even if the Warden bends over backwards to show her kindness and acceptance. Basically the Dark Ritual was her pivotal moment. Had she stuck around even if the Warden refused her offer, I would have a much higher opinion of her, but she does not. I think nurture can only go so far before it is no longer an excuse. How many criminals in the real world had a lousy life that was probably a factor in their becoming thieves or worse? At what point does that stop becoming an excuse and give way to personal responsibility?

I am not saying Leliana is a saint. I just think her choices make sense in light of what came before. Actually, Morrigan's make sense too; to an extent. That extent only goes so far though. What it basically comes down to is I prefer Leliana's negative traits to Morrigan's. To be honest, I never understood how you like her so much, considering your ethical observations of other characters and where you fall on certain real life issues. Even if I were to concede that Leliana is an awful human being, I would still put Morrigan right there next to her. Okay, now I a really done. If you want to respond I ask you do so elsewhere.

Modifié par Seagloom, 24 décembre 2010 - 09:07 .

[Brockololly]

Seagloom wrote...
Basically the Dark Ritual was her pivotal moment. Had she stuck around even if the Warden refused her offer, I would have a much higher opinion of her, but she does not.

Interesting conversation...

I'd just add with Morrigan at least, while with Leliana and Marjolaine that pivotal moment we know the outcomes and consequences, while with Morrigan and the Dark Ritual, its not entirely clear whats totally going on there.We don't know the full picture as to what else the Dark Ritual might play into down the road.  Perhaps there was a tangible reason beyond being a jerk that she felt compelled to leave the party if you turned her down? The DR is Morrigan's pivotal moment, but unlike Leliana confronting Marjolaine, there seems to be a good deal more going on with the DR and Morrigan that we may not be privy to as of yet.

[Graunt]

David Gaider wrote...
You can read the subtitles if you wish, and skip the VO. That option is there, as Mike mentioned. We're not going to set it up so that nobody will do so, however, because they've already read the lines. This is a cinematic game, and that's what we're making-- despite "what the customers want". You don't speak for all our customers, and we neither wish to nor possibly even could satisfy every person's desires. Maybe you should consider if this is the sort of game you actually want rather than bitterly sniping at every opportunity.

You'd be hard pressed for me to argue for a fully voiced game before the Mass Effect games arrived -- they were almost always lacking and the only time it was "good" to see any of the characters talking were in cutscenes (I thinkThe Witcher may have come out first though and had an amiable attempt at least...) if it wasn't just some simple acknowledgements when you would issue a command. 

When Mass Effect hit, my perpsective completely changed on what could be done with a console/PC RPG.  It was the first non PnP RPG that I truly felt immersed in and actually participating in the world by playing the part of a character in an epic sci-fi space opera movie.  It was the first game that I felt truly "perfected" the blending of cinematics with actual gameplay and not really sacrificing one for the other.  Was it a character I created from scratch?  No, but it didn't really matter.  Bioware had a story they wanted to tell, and in that story you were Shepard.  And even though it was their creation, it was still your character. 

Dragon Age was fun for what it was, but the transition from Mass Effect to Dragon Age style wise was a bit jarring to me.  I was spoiled and the only other game to give me a similar experience was Mass Effect 2.

This seems to be the hottest topic so far with Dragon Age 2, but I for one am glad Bioware decided to go this route.  It allows for a much more focused and compelling narrative.  RPGs are not just about "choice", but about telling a story and feeling like you're taking an active part in it.

Modifié par Graunt, 24 décembre 2010 - 09:45 .

[Wissenschaft]

MerinTB wrote...

So I don't only consider her an unreliable narrator (even without Leliana's Song experience) but I consider her a geniunely deceitful and unlikeable character.

And it's experiences like forming this opinion of her that makes me question replaying these kinds of games, because sometimes seeing the same character do opposite actions with varying morals and such really weakens the character overall for me.

Leliana always seemed more of a 3D character to me because of her complex personality. Shes not even sure herself who she is. Can she really be a good person or is she rotten to the core like her mentor. The thought does haunt her.

As for how do I deal with her bard side? Its find with me, my warden can certainly use a skilled con artist. Leliana is consistently looking for redemption not just for herself but for others during the game. So I believe that she not the same person she was as a bard. Her DLC proves that.

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 24 décembre 2010 - 11:37 .

[Xewaka]

Graunt wrote...
*snip*
When Mass Effect hit, my perpsective completely changed on what could be done with a console/PC RPG.  It was the first non PnP RPG that I truly felt immersed in and actually participating in the world by playing the part of a character in an epic sci-fi space opera movie.  It was the first game that I felt truly "perfected" the blending of cinematics with actual gameplay and not really sacrificing one for the other.  Was it a character I created from scratch?  No, but it didn't really matter.  Bioware had a story they wanted to tell, and in that story you were Shepard.  And even though it was their creation, it was still your character. 

The italiced part is either a lie or an honest mistake. Shepard is Bioware's character, they just let you choose between goodie-two-shoes flavor and jerk flavor.
Then there's also the fact that since paraphrases are, by their very nature, almost impossible to properly translate - due to context for the translation being almost nonexistant-, I had to make my choices based on dumb luck. The paraphrases simply stop being functional when the game is localized. And this is fact, not an opinion.

To illustrate that fact, let me present a simple example of the problem: The word "back" in english might be used to indicate return to a former point, or as a name for the posterior half of the torso. The words for each meaning in spanish are "atrás" and "espalda". If I write "My back aches", a translator will know that he has to use "espalda", while if I write "We ought to go back", he'll know he has to use "atrás". Now, if I write "back" on isolation, which is correct? There's no context for the translation, and so it becomes guesswork. Paraphrases have this very problem.

[Wissenschaft]

Or maybe Graunt got so immersed in Mass Effect they he felt his Shepard was his own character.

Just because you disagree with his view doesn't make him a lier or that he made a mistake. More like the game succeeded in satisfying a player. +10 for Bioware.

I personally dislike mass effects options as to limited (either goody toe shoe or JERK) but that doesn't other can rightfully disagree, and I don't need to tell them they are wrong or lieing.

The paraphrases simply stop being functional when the game is localized. And this is fact, not an opinion.

Well, considering theres plenty of fans that didn't have this problem or any problem with the paraphrases, I'd have to say its very much opinion only.

The problem is also solved by first translating the diolouge and then using the translation to make the paraphrases.

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 25 décembre 2010 - 01:05 .

[In Exile]

Xewaka wrote...
The italiced part is either a lie or an honest mistake. Shepard is Bioware's character, they just let you choose between goodie-two-shoes flavor and jerk flavor.

No. It's a different take on the same experience. That you feel attached to your souless puppet automaton is great; but not everyone feels this, and taking it as some kind of objective fact (frankly, as Bioware themselves did) is uncalling for.

Then there's also the fact that since paraphrases are, by their very nature, almost impossible to properly translate - due to context for the translation being almost nonexistant-, I had to make my choices based on dumb luck. The paraphrases simply stop being functional when the game is localized. And this is fact, not an opinion

The problem is that a paraphrase is a meaning cue. You can't translate it in the rote sense - you can't just replace the words and get the same meaning. But that's not the way one ought to ever translate.

For a foreign language, the paraphrase has to be re-written. That's a real problem with it.

[Xewaka]

Wissenschaft wrote...

Or maybe Graunt got so immersed in Mass Effect they he felt his Shepard was his own character.

Inmersion and personalization have nothing to do with each other. I can be inmersed in a good novel, yet I won't find myself appropiating Vimes' persona.

Wissenschaft wrote...

The paraphrases simply stop being functional when the game is localized. And this is fact, not an opinion.

Well, considering theres plenty of fans that didn't have this problem or any problem with the paraphrases, I'd have to say its very much opinion only.

How many of those fans were playing localized versions?

Wissenschaft wrote...
The problem is also solved by first translating the diolouge and then using the translation to make the paraphrases.

That could be a solution. Too bad software localization doesn't work that way. Translators are simply given text blocks, with no more context than that present within the each one.

In Exile wrote...
The problem is that a paraphrase is a meaning cue. You can't translate it in the rote sense - you can't just replace
the words and get the same meaning. But that's not the way one ought to ever translate.
For a foreign language, the paraphrase has to be re-written. That's a real problem with it.

The problem is that you cannot rewrite the paraphrase because you can't actually know the exact meaning, as you lack context to determine it.

Modifié par Xewaka, 25 décembre 2010 - 01:12 .

[In Exile]

tmp7704 wrote...
Yes; since i think there's instances where the SP model fails to work, i don't agree with your view it's accurate. Since you think the instances which i have on mind actually work different and conform with your idea, you disagree. That's about it.

But you haven't given any instances. At best you've given psychologically impossible scenarios like being able to attend to music without attending the coherent organizing framework for it. The framework is what makes it music and not noise to begin with.
 

Aye; haven't read anything so far i'd really consider one of these supposed good reasons, so i find it difficult to change my mind on this subject and accept the alternative model which i think doesn't work (see above)

That your opinion is entrenched isn't proof that it's true. If we wanted to settle the matter empirically, we would need an experiment that could distinguish between the two. What Bioware did does not serve as evidence, because both theories can explain the findings.

[In Exile]

Xewaka wrote...
Inmersion and personalization have nothing to do with each other. I can be inmersed in a good novel, yet I won't find myself appropiating Vimes' persona.

But a novel is not a video-game. A novel is like a movie - a fixed piece of fiction.

The best example we can have with a video-game is something like Metal Gear Solid - where the epxerience is cinematic but the characters are predetermined.

And even then, you still have an element of control you don't have in a movie (because you actually move an avatar that you are supposed to represent through their PoV alone).

It's just psychologically incompatible to compare video-games to any other static media out there. There is a degree of control that you can't have.

Maybe fan-fiction might be a good example (because you might be appropriating the pre-made characters of an author) but even that I don't think is a good parallel psychological, even if it might be thematically.

Xewaka wrote...
The problem is that you cannot rewrite the
paraphrase because you can't actually know the exact meaning, as you
lack context to determine it.

That's a failure of the localization, not the paraphrase.

Wait - that doesn't make sense. Don't they have both the paraphrase and the subsequent full line?

Modifié par In Exile, 25 décembre 2010 - 01:17 .

[Xewaka]

In Exile wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
The problem is that you cannot rewrite the paraphrase because you can't actually know the exact meaning, as you
lack context to determine it.

That's a failure of the localization, not the paraphrase.

Yet this failure doesn't happen with full text. No more than regular print typos, anyway.
I've done freelance translation. I know how hard it is to rewrite short lines of text to have them make sense in a different language while keeping the intended meaning and the character count limit. Paraphrases simply don't give you neither enough character count nor enough meaning to work with them. Full sentences do. So if localizations are near flawless with a method yet completely unreliable with another, I'd say the blame is in the method, not the localization.The problem comes clearly from the paraphrase.

In Exile wrote...
Wait - that doesn't make sense. Don't they have both the paraphrase and the subsequent full line?

Not together.

Modifié par Xewaka, 25 décembre 2010 - 01:22 .