1079 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

Addai67 wrote...

And I agree with Merin about Leliana's Song.  That's how I saw the character anyway in Origins, as deceitful and manipulative, maybe not out of malice so much as a desire to be loved/ accepted.   I find her creepy.

Which is interesting to me. I'm like Martin and you. In Origins, even though I've never hardened her, I consider Leliana deceitful and manipulative. She molds herself to whomever she's latched onto, and she's rather frank about this ability. I think it's a desire to be loved and possibly a lack of self-image. What Leliana knows of herself is that she wants others to approve her and that she can be whatever is needed to get that approval and attention.

I don't think she's malicious about it. She doesn't know how to be any other way. And yes, it's creepy when you think about it.

However, unlike you and Martin, I adore Leliana. I don't find these traits off-putting anymore than Alistiar's desire to shirk responsibility or Morrigan's b*tchiness and blatant hypocrisy.

[Addai]

Well it's probably also that I have a low tolerance for cutesy and girly-girl stuff. I joke about being a Leliana hater, but I usually recruit her and very occasionally take her out on missions. Just mostly my attitude is [shale] I'm going to go stand over here now. [/shale]

Now Shale, that's my kind of woman. LOL I also love Morrigan.

Like I said up above, I'm interested in the framed narrative, and I trust the writers to use it carefully and not use it to pull gotchas or too much postmodern crap.

Modifié par Addai67, 25 décembre 2010 - 05:28 .

[Kail Ashton]

So, anyone recall what this thread was about? it mostly seems to be the one percenters & lunatic fringers freaking out about so much random nonsense from sumth'n.....*reads the title* escapist? is this a thread about magic tricks? is David (ninja)Gaider a magician? do people here freak out that he's performing magic tricks and not writting DA2 or sumth'n?



hum, well point being, this is so moronicly off topic by this point i ponder why it's still even here

[Addai]

The topic is the framed narrative. Any thoughts?

[Maria Caliban]

Addai67 wrote...

The topic is the framed narrative. Any thoughts?

I wonder if any of the writers has ever read The Orphan's Tales duology by Cathyrenne Valente. Its one of my favorite fantasy series and has no less than 15 interconnecting frames for its narrative.

[Wissenschaft]

This threads about a preview. And we stop talking about that a long time ago.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

When you're talking about a high level concept like the phenomenology of enjoyment, you have to come up with your theory first and then fit it to the data

I think we should always do this, regardless of the topic.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

This is one of those subjective ''does it add a layer of separation or not'' issues like PC VO.

For those that feel that the hero is theirs, this is one of those things that actively works against that.

I don't think it has to.  This isn't a situation where I can only see the design failing, so I reject it out of hand.

I think this framed narrative can work, even though I want more control over my character than perhaps anyone else here.

[AlanC9]

The framed narrative topic brings to mind one of Gene Wolfe's books. Unfortunately, I can't talk about which book it is since that would be a massive spoiler.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote..

I'm going to counter with the rather simple experiment where you have the word BLUE in red colors on a white flashcard. You flip the flashcard and have someone immediately state what color the word is.

Most people will say 'Blue.' Some will not. People who originally say 'blue' can learn to ignore the word and state the color instead.

Are you talking about practice effects for the Stroop effect?

You can demarcate that into two groups. The ones that do say 'red' say it with a statistically significant delay that shows content monitoring (i.e. they read blue, then consciously filter it, and we can measure this via EEG).

After two examples the test subject might also stop looking at the entire word and instead focus on only the final letter, thus preventing themselves from reading the word at all and thus avoiding the need to monitor the content.

It is certainly not impossible to ignore text in a language you understand. It's difficult for some and impossible for some.

Not ignore. Rather,  ''not read''. This is what we are talking about. There is a distinction. In the Stroop effect, we measure the interference effect of reading on the automaticity of the response. This isn't the same as demonstrating they are not reading the word.

Personally, I find it impossible not to read the text even if I don't understand the language.  I've tried watching movies that are in a language I understand (English), but subtitled in a language I don't (I've tried French, German, and Swedish) and I'm unable to follow the spoken dialogue because I'm too busy trying to decipher the subtitles even though I know I can't read them (certainly not quickly enough to be of any use).

[David Gaider]

Wissenschaft wrote...
This threads about a preview. And we stop talking about that a long time ago.

That really does seem to be the case.

Instead, people seem to be veering off into their usual complaints about changes to the game or discussions about the nature of RPG's.

I'd suggest starting new threads (or using existing ones) to discuss those sorts of things. If you want to post in this thread, please keep it to a discussion about the Escapist preview specifically. We've already veered too much off topic as it is.

[Sylvius the Mad]

David posted the above just before 1:00 am, Christmas morning (Edmonton time).

If you don't go to sleep, Santa won't come.

[In Exile]

Maria Caliban wrote...
I think I see where the conflict is. I view a certain level attention scaling as effective ignorance where you need evidence of absolute unawareness?

I would look at it this way: I need EEG evidence of unawareness. Operationally, I would define unawareness as a lack of brain activation in a particular area known for a particular effect above baseline.

So if we have activation in Wernicke's area, for example, I would say people read the word.

That being said, we both actually described the traditional Stroop task wrong. I realized it reading tmp's post. Most people have a very hard time saying blue and many say red.

What the stroop task shows is automaticity in visual processing that overwrites the conscious reading filter. The automatic part of the task is that you accidentally say the colour it is instead of the colour as writen (as red), and the supression effect is the proper reading of the colour (as blue).

I do cognitive neuroscience and problem solving, so we have propositional and procedural variants on the Stroop task where we look at things like automaticity in writing, but the colour task isn't a task that shows this at all.

tmp7704 wrote...
Interesting; i was scrolling this thread up
from the end of it to catch up, so i just skimmed across the lines.
Without knowing the context, the BLUE thing registered as
'something red' in my head and "blue" very much failed to register at
all. I don't think there was any delay in the process.

That would be doing the experiment wrong. You skimmed a paragraph of content and noted the emblazoned colour. That's not the Stroop task.

That being said, you also showed the effect as predicted (for the traditional task) - you ignored the content and automatically proccesed the colour, which is more salient re: attention.

tmp7704 wrote...
I suppose it may put me in that group of
"some who will not". Maybe that's why i have this trouble with finding
common ground with In Exile in this discussion -- he literally perceives
things in different way and focuses on different aspects.

No. You would be wrong. It has nothing to do with me. It has to do with empirical findings in psychology. If you have a problem with anything, it is with the science.

When Maria talked about individual differences in the Stroop task, the explanation isn't that there are two kinds of thought processing ought there but rather one store of cognitive suppresion that people differ in (which may actually tie into things like delay gratification).

Modifié par In Exile, 25 décembre 2010 - 09:13 .

[Xewaka]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

David posted the above just before 1:00 am, Christmas morning (Edmonton time).
If you don't go to sleep, Santa won't come.

Meh. The three wise men are much better.

[tmp7704]

In Exile wrote...

The way it's put and with the earlier part of discussion in mind, i interpret your stance to be akin to saying one can't just like colour red e.g., they can only like things painted red. And they can only actually enjoy the thing itself, it being painted red is only modifier to level of their enjoyment.

No, because the colour red is separable from red paitings. This is like your icecream flavour analogy for companion customization - it pressuposes your POV.

It illustrates the problem, though -- so the colour can be mentally separated from the work it's associated with and enjoyed on its own, but you won't accept the sound of instrument can be appreciated on its own in similar manner? As well as other forms of presentation?

I find it hard to agree with because you say you'd need evidence of unawareness in order to accept that one can appreciate just the presentation alone and not the framework/content it's associated with. But at the same time, you acknowledge there is such thing as attentional scaling which can allow to effectively filter out part of the experience. And while such separation requires acive effort, it doesn't mean the elements aren't in fact separable -- if you have E provided as result of S+P then obtaining just P requires removing S by yourself.

Anyway, this indeed has gone quite off-topic.

Modifié par tmp7704, 25 décembre 2010 - 04:12 .

[Felfenix]

I like how people cite Fallout 3 being popular as a reason for a silent protagonist, cause yeah, the majority of normal (AKA people not on this forum) people bought Fallout because it had a silent protagonist... /eyeroll

But since DA2 apparently needs ALL the features that Fallout has, I suppose it's a good thing we can only play as a human in DA2. Afterall, you're only a human in Fallout, right? Fallout is popular and thus having the option only to play as a human is popular. How about we take away party members, the fantasy setting, and 3rd person view too, so it'll be more like Fallout? DERP, DERP, DERP!

Modifié par Felfenix, 25 décembre 2010 - 04:49 .

[tmp7704]

Felfenix wrote...

I like how people cite Fallout 3 being popular as a reason for a silent protagonist, cause yeah, the majority of normal (AKA people not on this forum) people bought Fallout because it had a silent protagonist... /eyeroll

I don't think it's as much the case of giving Fallout 3 as example how silent protagonist makes game popular, but rather it's a counter to claim that silent protagonist would limit the popularity of game and the number of sales -- Fallout games allegedly sold by truckload and if you check the reviews, the protagonist being silent goes very much unmentioned instead of being an issue.

[Felfenix]

tmp7704 wrote...

Felfenix wrote...

I like how people cite Fallout 3 being popular as a reason for a silent protagonist, cause yeah, the majority of normal (AKA people not on this forum) people bought Fallout because it had a silent protagonist... /eyeroll

I don't think it's as much the case of giving Fallout 3 as example how silent protagonist makes game popular, but rather it's a counter to claim that silent protagonist would limit the popularity of game and the number of sales -- Fallout games allegedly sold by truckload and if you check the reviews, the protagonist being silent goes very much unmentioned instead of being an issue.

Halo sold a lot too. The fact it has a rubbish story didn't hold it back either. Apples and oranges. Bethesda and Bioware games are different. If I wanted Bethesda Dragon Age, well... I have that: Elder Scrolls.

With all the complaining that people can't craft 100% of the story, dialog, characters, and even the metagame mechanics, I wonder why some people don't just go and write fiction if they want something where they have 100% creative control. Bioware games have always been about limited choice. You don't go around killing EVERYBODY, like in Beth-- well, they're actually getting away from that these days. Maybe you should complain on their forums about key NPCs being unkillable nowadays.

Modifié par Felfenix, 25 décembre 2010 - 05:13 .

[tmp7704]

Felfenix wrote...

Halo sold a lot too. The fact it has a rubbish story didn't hold it back either. Apples and oranges. Bethesda and Bioware games are different. If I wanted Bethesda Dragon Age, well... I have that: Elder Scrolls.

I think there's less difference between two RPGs than there is between an RPG and a FPS. So if people buy an RPG without voiced protagonist in large numbers and without complaints the protagonist isn't voiced, then it's not that far fetched that another RPG done similarly would generate similar reaction (or lack thereof)

[In Exile]

tmp7704 wrote..
I don't think it's as much the case of giving Fallout 3 as example how silent protagonist makes game popular, but rather it's a counter to claim that silent protagonist would limit the popularity of game and the number of sales -- Fallout games allegedly sold by truckload and if you check the reviews, the protagonist being silent goes very much unmentioned instead of being an issue.

But that's a terrible argument. Fallout might have sold even more if it had a voiced PC. You have no grounds of comparison, because Fallout does not have the features that Dragon Age has.

The only way you could actually test for this is to have a VO and non-VO version and see which people buy.

ETA:

As a further example, Fable II sold 2,347,699 in 10 weeks; Fable III (which added PC VO) sold 2,347,284 in 8 weeks. If Fable III has a similar pace to Fable II it will sell ~2,500,000 which means that the extra hour of PC VO they added as flavour might as well have added 150,000 sales (which would translate to roughly $6.0 million wordwide assuming a retail price of ~40 on average) by the logic used.

Modifié par In Exile, 26 décembre 2010 - 01:52 .

[nachobkn]

how do the decisions (fom DAO and his expansions) will have consequences in DA2?? EX: will the warden,some of their companions or people you help in DAO will appear according to your decisions in DAO???

[nachobkn]

how do the decisions (fom DAO and his expansions) will have consequences in DA2?? EX: will the warden,some of their companions or people you help in DAO will appear according to your decisions in DA2??

[Addai]

Felfenix wrote...

I like how people cite Fallout 3 being popular as a reason for a silent protagonist, cause yeah, the majority of normal (AKA people not on this forum) people bought Fallout because it had a silent protagonist... /eyeroll

But since DA2 apparently needs ALL the features that Fallout has, I suppose it's a good thing we can only play as a human in DA2. Afterall, you're only a human in Fallout, right? Fallout is popular and thus having the option only to play as a human is popular. How about we take away party members, the fantasy setting, and 3rd person view too, so it'll be more like Fallout? DERP, DERP, DERP!

I probably shouldn't reply to such thick sarcasm at all, but I'll try to treat your argument more courteously than you are doing for others'.  The issue is that people keep saying all games have to have voiced PC, it's the wave of the future, etc.  And yet, it doesn't keep Fallout from selling gangbusters.  So it must not be as important as some make it out to be here.

And then there's DAO, which sold pretty well, too.

Modifié par Addai67, 26 décembre 2010 - 04:19 .

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...
I probably shouldn't reply to such thick sarcasm at all, but I'll try to treat your argument more courteously than you are doing for others'.  The issue is that people keep saying all games have to have voiced PC, it's the wave of the future, etc.  And yet, it doesn't keep Fallout from selling gangbusters.  So it must not be as important as some make it out to be here.

And then there's DAO, which sold pretty well, too.

Or it could be as important, and Fallout would have sold even better with VO. That's the problem with this comparison.

DA2 can be our litmus, since among other things this is the first game to switch from one to the other.

Though I do find it interesting that on the one hand you used to argue that the mainstream is excluding you via features like PC VO, and now you are arguing that silent VO is actually the mainstream.

[Addai]

Never said silent PC was the mainstream. I'm not trying to make a case that silent PC is needed to sell well. There are games that sell well with and without. I'm just offering examples as evidence against the idea that voiced PC is inevitable or a must-have to have a successful title, as people sometimes assert here.

But seems Gaider is trying to rein it in.

Modifié par Addai67, 26 décembre 2010 - 04:37 .