1079 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

Brockololly wrote...

That kind of stinks- can't even make a choice in the matter its just predetermined by the Plot Gods? Eh, warrior Hawke it is then...

Yeah, kinda does. I was thinking a playthrough with both Hawke and Bethany being mages could be interesting -- no one to better understand an apostate mage than a sibling apostate mage... oh well.

[Minxie]

shepard_lives wrote...

Way I figure it, unless there's some dramatic Ash/Kaidan story conflict, someone'll probably make a mod to have Beth and Carver at the same time.

I kind of hope so.

And I hope that wouldn't mess with the dialogue too much, like the game getting confused thinking there should only be one apostate Hawke when there are in fact two.

[Brockololly]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
Yeah......not smooth Laidlaw, not smooth. >

Oh no, some people might get upset with me over a choice I made as applied to DA II's design! That's never happened before!

Its more the manner in which the quote was framed that its just some sort of "Duh, well of course people hated the silent protagonist!" Sure, maybe a good number didn't care, but a good number of people prefer the silent protagonist approach too, as you surely know. Hate though? Thats a rather strong word and seems to belittle Origins' silent PC, and I'd say its a bit of a overly broad and sweeping statement to say that generally, people hated it.

It comes across as taking a swipe at those who liked that aspect of Origins.

Modifié par Brockololly, 20 décembre 2010 - 06:58 .

[blothulfur]

Damn well written article, game sounds stonking in the words of julius ceasar I can't wait for march.

[Wissenschaft]

Seb Hanlon wrote...

The article is correct. You'll get Bethany if Hawke is a rogue or warrior (regardless of gender), and Carver if Hawke is a mage.

Well, I'm never playing a mage then. I can't stand Carver, he looks so derpy.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Seb Hanlon wrote...

The article is correct. You'll get Bethany if Hawke is a rogue or warrior (regardless of gender), and Carver if Hawke is a mage.

Why not let the player choose rather than once again taking choice out of the player's hands?

[Wulfram]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
Yeah......not smooth Laidlaw, not smooth. >

Oh no, some people might get upset with me over a choice I made as applied to DA II's design! That's never happened before!

Do you have any evidence for the "generally hated"?  It's a strong statement.

[Addai]

Seb Hanlon wrote...

The article is correct. You'll get Bethany if Hawke is a rogue or warrior (regardless of gender), and Carver if Hawke is a mage.

?!!! 

[Wittand25]

So the scene in the trailer that shows all three Hawke siblings arriving in Kirkwall is staged and cannot be achieved in game ?

[Shepard Lives]

Wissenschaft wrote...

Seb Hanlon wrote...

The article is correct. You'll get Bethany if Hawke is a rogue or warrior (regardless of gender), and Carver if Hawke is a mage.

Well, I'm never playing a mage then. I can't stand Carver, he looks so derpy.

And this based off two screenshots. God I love these forums.

[nijnij]

I actually like that. A member of your family dying is a fatality ; although RPGs are about choices, if you have your say in elements that are supposed to be out of your hands, then it feels too much like playing in god-mode. In a story-based game, in order to achieve suspension of disbelief, you have to play along with the story. I'm fine with such arbitrary elements ; the fact that they're class-related makes sense gameplay-wise.

[Gethrian]

Seb Hanlon wrote...

The article is correct. You'll get Bethany if Hawke is a rogue or warrior (regardless of gender), and Carver if Hawke is a mage.

Maybe that's happen during the prologue but what of rest of the game? Can you have them both later?
*hoping that's the case *

[tmp7704]

David Gaider wrote...

but someone who's playing the game for the first time won't know these things. How would they make such a decision, based on characters they've only just met? It would feel hollow at best-- and providing a decision that indirectly did the same thing (meaning you weren't directly deciding between them, but whatever decision you did make had the same end effect) might also feel cheap.

Couldn't that be decided on something like say, the way Hawke interacted with both siblings up to the point where the Drama Moment™ happens? Situations like where you directly support one over the other, or are attentive/dismissive to their concerns, things like that?

I'd imagine that could feel less cheap than a person arbitrarily kicking the bucket based on what class you chose... maybe it could even make player somewhat remorseful about the way they did interact with that person. Instead, you have basically a cross between pure metagaming and Mhairi 2.0

[Apollo Starflare]

Minxie18 wrote...

The revelation that Bethany will probably die if I play a mage has me feeling surprisingly bereft. I'd gotten so used to the idea that she was one of main NPCs of the game and I guess she really isn't after all...

Likewise. But I'll live!

I'm just going to hope that Bioware make both Carver and Bethany matter to the storyline despite being optional. Plus I was planning on playing a rogue first anyway.

I can't help but feel that a scene that puts the player on the spot to choose between two people early on would be both surprising and powerful though. Sure you wouldn't have a good grasp of them yet, and you would be left wondering what might have been, but that could potentially be a good thing if you ask me.

Edit: For those posting screenshots of basements covered in spiders as a counterpoint to the 'awash with colour' quote, don't you think we should wait to see more of Kirkwall than what seems to be the basement of a building and a couple of streets before deciding? I do hope they match the concept art though.

Modifié par Apollo Starflare, 20 décembre 2010 - 07:06 .

[upsettingshorts]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Why not let the player choose rather than once again taking choice out of the player's hands?

Because - and I'm guessing as to how the death plays out - the decision as to who lives and who dies is literally out of Hawke's hands.  If it was made an explicit player choice, the fact he or she chose which sibling to save would have to be a pretty important element of his or her character.

Death in battle, force of nature, the will of fate - are all perfectly acceptable reasons for the ingame death of either Carver or Bethany. 

The frustration seems to be metagamey in nature to me.  As long as the story is written so that the death is truly out of Hawke's hands, I don't see the problem.  I'm going to do multiple playthroughs anyway, so I don't feel like I'm gonna miss out on anything.

[Wulfram]

So we can't get rid of both of them then?

[Brockololly]

David Gaider wrote...
Not that this is something you're really concerned about, I imagine, but this came down to a design decision. I understand that you're deciding who you like more based on a meta-gaming decision (using information gleaned from previews, along with assumptions as to what Bethany and Carver are about) but someone who's playing the game for the first time won't know these things. How would they make such a decision, based on characters they've only just met? It would feel hollow at best-- and providing a decision that indirectly did the same thing (meaning you weren't directly deciding between them, but whatever decision you did make had the same end effect) might also feel cheap.

This did what we needed for the story to work-- and personally I really like the fact that both Bethany and Carver are fully-realized characters, providing you family members that aren't killed off right at the beginning of the story who are also going to work as part of it. I would caution you not to assume the worst about characters you haven't met yet and a story you don't know about... but you are of course free to jump to whatever conclusions you like.

Oh, I'm just wondering though in the sense that Carver and Bethany do indeed come across as vastly different characters now and don't just fill some generic plot role of "Hawke sibling"? Its just kind of interesting as it seems to run counter to some of the stuff previously stated on how resources aren't allocated to things which aren't necessarily able to be seen in a single play through- considering most don't even finish a game. Seems odd that a whole companion is snuffed in the opening moments of the game with no player input, beyond your choice of class.

Not that I'm complaining- provided I enjoy the game, I'd likely play it more than once, so offering up a different experience like that is FANTASTIC.

[David Gaider]

tmp7704 wrote...
Couldn't that be decided on something like say, the way Hawke interacted with both siblings up to the point where the Drama Moment™ happens? Situations like where you directly support one over the other, or are attentive/dismissive to their concerns, things like that?

I'd imagine that could feel less cheap than a person arbitrarily kicking the bucket based on what class you chose... maybe it could even make player somewhat remorseful about the way they did interact with that person. Instead, you have basically a cross between pure metagaming and Mhairi 2.0

Mhairi 2.0? We've never claimed that either sibling joins your party or is available anywhere beyond the Prologue. If you're deciding now who you prefer, you're basing it on... what? Their looks? A few screenshots? We went with what works based on the context of the story rather than allowing the player to make an arbitrary decision-- and I'll leave it at that, sorry.

[Crimson Invictus]

shepard_lives wrote...
And this based off two screenshots. God I love these forums.

Imagine if the real world placed emphasis on first impressions.

Oh, wait.

Modifié par Liana Nighthawk, 20 décembre 2010 - 07:07 .

[Shiro_the_Gambler]

David Gaider wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
That kind of stinks- can't even make a choice in the matter its just predetermined by the Plot Gods?

Not that this is something you're really concerned about, I imagine, but this came down to a design decision. I understand that you're deciding who you like more based on a meta-gaming decision (using information gleaned from previews, along with assumptions as to what Bethany and Carver are about) but someone who's playing the game for the first time won't know these things. How would they make such a decision, based on characters they've only just met? It would feel hollow at best-- and providing a decision that indirectly did the same thing (meaning you weren't directly deciding between them, but whatever decision you did make had the same end effect) might also feel cheap.

This did what we needed for the story to work-- and personally I really like the fact that both Bethany and Carver are fully-realized characters, providing you family members that aren't killed off right at the beginning of the story who are also going to work as part of it. I would caution you not to assume the worst about characters you haven't met yet and a story you don't know about... but you are of course free to jump to whatever conclusions you like.

No offense meant, but that reasoning seems kind of hollow too.  Perhaps it's just me though.  If both are well presented at the beginning, seeing as they are Hawke's siblings.  Wouldn't giving the player the choice feel more like role playing instead of the decision being made for them?  Unless, of course, Bethany and Carver only get fleshed out more during the course of the game and you barely have any interaction with them at the beginning.  Which would also be kind of disappointing.

[Amagoi]

I'm a bit confused. Say I'm playing a Mage Hawke, I get Carver. Does that mean Bethany will die, and vice versa? Or will the other sibling still be alive, just not in the party?

[tmp7704]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Because - and I'm guessing as to how the death plays out - the decision as to who lives and who dies is literally out of Hawke's hands.

Except by associating it with the character's class it is not -- it's merely obfuscated and put on the metagaming level.

It's not in hands of Hawke but Hawke never makes any decision anyway, it's always the player behind Hawke. And the decision remains in the player's hands with this setup just the same.

[AzuraLuna]

I wanted a little brother for my warrior lady to pick on.
It's making the choice of what class to start out with a bit harder.

Modifié par AzuraLuna, 20 décembre 2010 - 07:10 .

[Shepard Lives]

The fact that the choice is out of the player's hands is quite excellent, in my opinion. I support events that happen without or regardless of player input, like Alistair sacrificing himself for a female Warden. I don't want complete and utter control over the world and its inhabitants, much less having everything revolve around the PC: I think it greatly cheapens the story and painfully lessens the individuality of the NPC characters.

[syllogi]

Seb Hanlon wrote...

The article is correct. You'll get Bethany if Hawke is a rogue or warrior (regardless of gender), and Carver if Hawke is a mage.

I just wanted to have a sister mage.  Blergh.  And poor Carver.  Judging by how many people played warriors in DA:O, he'll rarely get saved.  He looks like a perfectly nice young man.