1079 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

tmp7704 wrote...

Except by associating it with the character's class it is not -- it's merely obfuscated and put on the metagaming level.

Does Hawke know it is the result of his chosen profession or skillset?  It'd be funny if say, Flemeth told him.  But I really doubt it.  We know, he doesn't.  Therefore he doesn't necessarily have to recognize it as a conscious choice, and therefore the burden of that decision doesn't necessarily have to become a part of his character.  Their death is an "act of God."

tmp7704 wrote...

It's not in hands of Hawke but Hawke never makes any decision anyway, it's always the player behind Hawke.

In character and out of character are two different things?

[Ziggeh]

shepard_lives wrote...

like Alistair sacrificing himself for a female Warden.

Does he do that? That's a pretty cool idea.

[Addai]

nijnij wrote...

I actually like that. A member of your family dying is a fatality ; although RPGs are about choices, if you have your say in elements that are supposed to be out of your hands, then it feels too much like playing in god-mode. In a story-based game, in order to achieve suspension of disbelief, you have to play along with the story. I'm fine with such arbitrary elements ; the fact that they're class-related makes sense gameplay-wise.

So in a story it makes sense that the family member who dies is based on what class the PC plays?  Er, no.  And in Origins I often ran a two- or even three-mage party.  I suppose someone's going to come along and tell me I was playing it wrong.

[Shepard Lives]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

shepard_lives wrote...

like Alistair sacrificing himself for a female Warden.

Does he do that? That's a pretty cool idea.

I've never tried, but from what I've gathered if you try to dissuade him he just kisses the Warden and goes to kill the Archdemon.

He also executes Loghain immediately if you let them duel at the Landsmeet.

Modifié par shepard_lives, 20 décembre 2010 - 07:14 .

[Master Shiori]

Seb Hanlon wrote...

The article is correct. You'll get Bethany if Hawke is a rogue or warrior (regardless of gender), and Carver if Hawke is a mage.

Honestly, I'm not happy about this, especially if it's just down to class balance and not a story requirement.

Granted, we had precious little information about  Bethany and Carver by this point to truly care about either of them, but it would have been nice if the choice (and consequences) were left to the player, rather then being forcefed to him/her.

Oh well, I can always leave Carver in whatever passes for his home and take other companions in his place.

Hopefully...

[Ziggeh]

Addai67 wrote...

So in a story it makes sense that the family member who dies is based on what class the PC plays? 

I'd say which class you are playing is a decision made outside of the narrative.

Addai67 wrote...

Er, no.  And in Origins I often ran a two- or even three-mage party.  I suppose someone's going to come along and tell me I was playing it wrong.

Nope, but it was a balance problem.

[upsettingshorts]

Question: Would the people upset that their death is tied to class be more or less upset if their death was randomized, but one was fated to die beyond the player's ability to influence the event?

And just to get at the issue I want to address, assume that - through some mechanism - saving and reloading until you got the combination you wanted was impractical.  This is a purely hypothetical question and not one aimed at practical solutions.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 20 décembre 2010 - 07:15 .

[Saibh]

Seb Hanlon wrote...

The article is correct. You'll get Bethany if Hawke is a rogue or warrior (regardless of gender), and Carver if Hawke is a mage.

Caaaaaaalled iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit!

A-hem.

Yes, well, glad that's cleared up.

[Crimson Invictus]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

shepard_lives wrote...

like Alistair sacrificing himself for a female Warden.

Does he do that? That's a pretty cool idea.

If I recall correctly it caused quite a bit of wailing and gnashing of teeth since the Warden cannot decide to sacrifice her own life if he's present. She just stands there while he runs off to stab a dragon. 

[Addai]

ziggehunderslash wrote...
Nope, but it was a balance problem.

Shouldn't I as a player be able to decide that?

I realize we'll probably have another mage NPC... maybe?... but Bethany was the one NPC I was actually looking forward to getting to know.  And I was planning on playing a mage.

Oh well.

Modifié par Addai67, 20 décembre 2010 - 07:16 .

[Minxie]

nijnij wrote...
And in Origins I often ran a two- or even three-mage party.  I suppose someone's going to come along and tell me I was playing it wrong.

I did that too. It was one of my favorite ways to play.

[Ziggeh]

Liana Nighthawk wrote...

If I recall correctly it caused quite a bit of wailing and gnashing of teeth since the Warden cannot decide to sacrifice her own life if he's present. She just stands there while he runs off to stab a dragon. 

Wouldn't want that interactive world to be active at all.

[Shiro_the_Gambler]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Question: Would the people upset that their death is tied to class be more or less upset if their death was randomized, but one was fated to die beyond the player's ability to influence the event?

I would not have any problems with this.  It would be difficult to implement but I would not mind in the slightest.

[Wulfram]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

shepard_lives wrote...

like Alistair sacrificing himself for a female Warden.

Does he do that? That's a pretty cool idea.

Only if they're in a romance

[Beerfish]

Bethany/Carver thing, no problem for me as I almost always play though these games with a variety of classes over a number of play throughs. Others I can see having a bit of a problem with it.

[FellowerOfOdin]

"Was the default setting, especially on PC, too hard? Yeah," admits Laidlaw. "'Normal' felt more like 'Hard' to me."



Uhm, Captain Subtext says: expect DA2 to be a lot easier than DA1.



So...an easy game gets even easier?



Nightmare +, naow.

[Ziggeh]

Addai67 wrote...

Shouldn't I as a player be able to decide that?

Decide the predictability of the players actions and let the devs balance difficulty settings more consistently?

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 20 décembre 2010 - 07:21 .

[Saibh]

Liana Nighthawk wrote...

ziggehunderslash wrote...

shepard_lives wrote...

like Alistair sacrificing himself for a female Warden.

Does he do that? That's a pretty cool idea.

If I recall correctly it caused quite a bit of wailing and gnashing of teeth since the Warden cannot decide to sacrifice her own life if he's present. She just stands there while he runs off to stab a dragon. 

Quite right--while I love me some juicy tragedy and was deliciously miserable when he sacrificed himself, I couldn't help but be bothered that my PC just stood there with a blank look on her face as he ran off. Hello, cast Force Field you lyrium-addled dimwit!

[tmp7704]

David Gaider wrote...

Mhairi 2.0? We've never claimed that either sibling joins your party or is available anywhere beyond the Prologue.

I meant it in the sense of having the redshirt character who unavoidably dies to show the situation is serious. 

If you're deciding now who you prefer, you're basing it on... what? Their looks? A few screenshots?

I'd imagine that would be generally based on first impression, and/or the idea the player would have for their character and the overall experience in that particular playthrough. 

I understand you've made an arbitrary decision and don't feel like discussing it. It's just surprising that -- in situation where you are unable to determine what exactly the individual player would be basing their decision on, and in situation where these reasons could be numerous and varied -- you've decided to just yank the decision out of their hand and then attach it to the meta-gamey "melee = mage and vice versa" mechanics. Thus effectively just limiting possible variations for the player's game, and little else.

[Ziggeh]

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

"Was the default setting, especially on PC, too hard? Yeah," admits Laidlaw. "'Normal' felt more like 'Hard' to me."

Uhm, Captain Subtext says: expect DA2 to be a lot easier than DA1.

So...an easy game gets even easier?

Nightmare +, naow.

In fairness, the difficulty settings in Origins really just made the fights longer. Normal really did feel a lot like hard, there was just less of it.

[Wulfram]

Mage Hawke + Bethany will probably be the first mod released. Or at least the first one that isn't a nude mod.

Modifié par Wulfram, 20 décembre 2010 - 07:21 .

[Nyaore]

shepard_lives wrote...

The fact that the choice is out of the player's hands is quite excellent, in my opinion. I support events that happen without or regardless of player input, like Alistair sacrificing himself for a female Warden. I don't want complete and utter control over the world and its inhabitants, much less having everything revolve around the PC: I think it greatly cheapens the story and painfully lessens the individuality of the NPC characters.

Agreed. That was also one of the reasons why I adored many of the characters from Origins, in that while you could influence their growth to a certain extent there were still certain things that were out of your control. Hell, it's one of the reasons why I adore Anora so much in spite of her attitude. The sheer fact that she refused to bow down to the 'almighty PC' during game play if you didn't prove yourself to be a worthwhile ally endeared her to me greatly; because anything else would have cheapened her as a character.
Likewise, I think it's interesting that which Hawke sibling dies is largely out of the character's hands at this point. It takes a good amount of ultimate control away from the PC, something that I find favorable when done right and sparingly, and also gives you extra incentive to play all the classes. Want Carver with you? Play as a Mage. Want Bethany? Rogue or Warrior. It'll definitely mix things up.

Modifié par Nyaore, 20 décembre 2010 - 07:24 .

[Xeyska]

Shiro_the_Gambler wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Question: Would the people upset that their death is tied to class be more or less upset if their death was randomized, but one was fated to die beyond the player's ability to influence the event?

I would not have any problems with this.  It would be difficult to implement but I would not mind in the slightest.

This.

[Addai]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Shouldn't I as a player be able to decide that?

Decide the predictability of the players actions and let the dev balance difficulty settings more consistently?

If I didn't think it was unbalanced, why should it matter to anyone else?  I choose my party based on my preferred playstyle and for RP reasons and then adjust the gameplay difficulty according to that.  I don't need someone enforcing on me the tank- mage- rogue setup just because.

I'm sure the rationale was that people would choose who lives based on gameplay reasons anyway, but I hate having the choice taken away and for no good story reason.  Wouldn't it have been interesting for mage siblings to play out the templar conflict?  I thought so. 

[ViSeiRa]

David Gaider wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...
Couldn't that be decided on something like say, the way Hawke interacted with both siblings up to the point where the Drama Moment™ happens? Situations like where you directly support one over the other, or are attentive/dismissive to their concerns, things like that?

I'd imagine that could feel less cheap than a person arbitrarily kicking the bucket based on what class you chose... maybe it could even make player somewhat remorseful about the way they did interact with that person. Instead, you have basically a cross between pure metagaming and Mhairi 2.0

Mhairi 2.0? We've never claimed that either sibling joins your party or is available anywhere beyond the Prologue. If you're deciding now who you prefer, you're basing it on... what? Their looks? A few screenshots? We went with what works based on the context of the story rather than allowing the player to make an arbitrary decision-- and I'll leave it at that, sorry.

Really? seeing as how Bethany and Carver appear in almost all screenshots post-prologue in Kirkwall I say he has a viable point, balancing the party is fine with me I just needed to put this out there.