1079 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

shepard_lives wrote...

like Alistair sacrificing himself for a female Warden.

Does he do that? That's a pretty cool idea.

Only if you romanced him. That's a companion responding to in-game decisions. Not to character creation.

[Crimson Invictus]

I think the main cause for complaint would be that is the only choice he makes for himself in the entire game.

[tmp7704]

Liana Nighthawk wrote...

I think the main cause for complaint would be that is the only choice he makes for himself in the entire game.

He sometimes chooses to leave, too. Although granted, that instance also causes plenty complaints.

[MerinTB]

In Exile wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
As I've finally reconciled (for myself) that DA2 is far more ME style of RPG than DA:O's style of RPG (and I'm talking character creation and story for said character, not game mechanics here), and that DA:O was more of an anomaly for BioWare than a norm... I have adjusted to Hawke being a "set", voiced protagonist.  Not what I'd prefer... but at this point I'm over it.  But I am glad i've had months to adjust to it.

This brings I tear to my eye, seriously. I'm been trying to argue this for the last four months, and yet it never seemed like anyone was ever interested in listening to me. I feel at least a little happy that someone beside me can now point out Bioware's design history re: the last decade (give or take).

You know how you learn something wrong once it takes like seven times or some such to unlearn it?

I THOUGHT I liked BioWare's game design, but what I was doing was mixing up Black Isle games with BioWare games (IWD over BG, for example) and it just took BioWare ALMOST making my kind of cRPG (DA:O) to open my eyes to how wrong I've kept thinking of them.

Now I just accept that I love how BioWare melds adventure gaming into other gaming mechanics fairly well for me, and how cool I think their story telling and character design is.  And I've crossed "RPG" off the list of things I look for from BioWare.

This isn't a bad thing - it doesn't amount ot a small pile of lint as far as BioWare the company or it's employees are concerned, sure - but I mean I can like BioWare for what it is, not what I kept wanting it to be. :happy:

Modifié par MerinTB, 20 décembre 2010 - 08:19 .

[Crimson Invictus]

tmp7704 wrote...
He sometimes chooses to leave, too. Although granted, that instance also causes plenty complaints.

That is a player driven choice though; I'm unsure if you can annoy him enough to just outright leave but the choice at the Landsmeet he tells you what will happen if you decide against him.

The final blow gives you no choice at all.

Modifié par Liana Nighthawk, 20 décembre 2010 - 08:19 .

[Saibh]

tmp7704 wrote...

Liana Nighthawk wrote...

I think the main cause for complaint would be that is the only choice he makes for himself in the entire game.

He sometimes chooses to leave, too. Although granted, that instance also causes plenty complaints.

The only time the companions think for themselves is if you treat them like crap and get to the Crisis stage, or you reach their Moral Event Horizon. Even then, you can often convince them to listen to you.

[Apollo Starflare]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Question: Would the people upset that their death is tied to class be more or less upset if their death was randomized, but one was fated to die beyond the player's ability to influence the event?

And just to get at the issue I want to address, assume that - through some mechanism - saving and reloading until you got the combination you wanted was impractical.  This is a purely hypothetical question and not one aimed at practical solutions.

Weirdly enough I would actually prefer it if it was completely random. Sure it would then mean you could potentially re-load until you get what you want, but something about it being fixed based on your class just doesn't sit right with me.

They did say that your class would play a more important role this time though, I guess this is just part of that.

[KendallX23]

well i must have missed it..but where does it say that one of them dies...it just says that depending on class we get either Bethany/Carver.Maybe u get just one companion in the party and the other one becomes just an NPC...that never joins your party again or something like that

[tmp7704]

Liana Nighthawk wrote...

That is a player driven choice though

That's true, but romancing Alistair (which drives the sacrifice) as well as refusing the  Ritual which cancels that move are both player's decision, too

[Maria Caliban]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Question: Would the people upset that their death is tied to class be more or less upset if their death was randomized, but one was fated to die beyond the player's ability to influence the event.

To be honest, I was content in my ignorance. If I had picked a mage Hawke and Bethany had died without my knowing why, it wouldn't bother me. If the decision was based on what I did in game or was random or was something out of my hands, that would be fine.

But it's based on character creation. It's like KotOR 2 giving you a Handmaiden if you're male and Disciple if you're female.

I'd prefer it if character creation remained something that reflects what I want to play.

[In Exile]

MerinTB wrote...

You know how you learn something wrong once it takes like seven times or some such to unlearn it?

I THOUGHT I liked BioWare's game design, but what I was doing was mixing up Black Isle games with BioWare games (IWD over BG, for example) and it just took BioWare ALMOST making my kind of cRPG (DA:O) to open my eyes to how wrong I've kept thinking of them.

I get that. A lot of people do this. If you look at a game like BG, and you look at the changes from BG to BGII, and then from NWN:OC to NWN:HoTU, you can really see this Bioware "style" evolving. It's why they have fans like me, who as I'm sure you're aware aren't really fond of games like New Vegas or IWD that involve a different kind of cRPG.

Now I just accept that I love how BioWare melds adventure gaming into other gaming mechanics fairly well for me, and how cool I think their story telling and character design is.  And I've crossed "RPG" off the list of things I look for from BioWare.

I am so not getting into the what defines an RPG argument. I happen to think Bioware is better at making an RPG than the old Black Isle games by far. But I think a big part of that is that I never played PnP, so what an RPG is to me is not what an RPG is to other people.

This isn't a bad thing - it doesn't amount ot a small pile of lint as far as BioWare the company or it's employees are concerned, sure - but I mean I can like BioWare for what it is, not what I kept wanting it to be. :happy:

Which is, honestly, the best attitude for everyone. Because there are things Bioware sucks at, and things they deserve to be held accountable for, but they ought to be held to the appropriate standard re: design in terms of things like their motives or whatever.

[Nohvarr]

Loss is a big part of the Dragon Age story. There's not an Origin where you don't lose something or someone important to your character, even if it's just your own freedom. Doors close upon you all the time in that game, and often it's despite you doing everything right. My Male Alienage Elf still wonders if he could've made a life with his bride, but that path is barred from him. My male Nobel will forever wonder what kind of man his nephew could've been.



Now, my Hawk will forver wonder if there could've been some way to save all of his family as they fled the blight.

[Eclipse_9990]

I'm glad they implemented that new crafting system. I remember once when I was in the dalish camp buying ingredients I was like.. Man I wish I could hire someone to do this for me..

[Apollo Starflare]

Saibh wrote...

If I can be indulged, is this screenshot in-game, or were one of the models replaced by someone who is actually there?

I remember this, it was my main defence against those saying you HAD to choose either Carv or Beth. I guess they just used them as temps for that shot? Unless the whole prologue has changed and the choice is purely who travels with you and not a lives or dies choice.

I'm just not a fan of what I do in character creation having such an impact I guess?

[Crimson Invictus]

Nohvarr wrote...

Loss is a big part of the Dragon Age story. There's not an Origin where you don't lose something or someone important to your character, even if it's just your own freedom.

While I mostly agree, I'm not sure you can make that claim about the mage origin. If anything, you gain your freedom and lose nothing.

[upsettingshorts]

Apollo Starflare wrote...

I'm just not a fan of what I do in character creation having such an impact I guess?

I kind of view it as similar to the fact you couldn't be a human living in the alienage.  Or an elf living in Orzammar.

Liana Nighthawk wrote...

While I mostly agree, I'm not sure you can make that claim about the mage origin. If anything, you gain your freedom and lose nothing.

Freedom?  I viewed it as closer to work release.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 20 décembre 2010 - 08:34 .

[In Exile]

I think the thing that bugs me the most about it is the fact that I just mentally filed Carver under "filler" companion and Bethany under "proper" companion and just cannot for the life of me change that approach. So I don't even process it as a choice right now, so much as losing a character for a setpiece.

It's entirely my fault, of course, but still.

[Nohvarr]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Liana Nighthawk wrote...

While I mostly agree, I'm not sure you can make that claim about the mage origin. If anything, you gain your freedom and lose nothing.

Freedom?  I viewed it as closer to work release.

I would agree, espedcially since you are tossed out into a world that fears and hates you.

Nobel Mage: "I've come to save you from the blight"

Crowd: "Its a mage run!"

NM: *sigh*

[MerinTB]

In Exile wrote...
I think the thing that bugs me the most about it is the fact that I just mentally filed Carver under "filler" companion and Bethany under "proper" companion and just cannot for the life of me change that approach. So I don't even process it as a choice right now, so much as losing a character for a setpiece.
It's entirely my fault, of course, but still.

At least you acknowledge this and accept it as your own problem.

I think this is what it may be for many who are upset by this.

And while I'm not personally upset by this at all, on a design level I find it... questionable, at best.  Still, like art style and monster design, I can disagree and still just shrug as it's not that important to me, personally.

[tmp7704]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I kind of view it as similar to the fact you couldn't be a human living in the alienage.  Or an elf living in Orzammar.

These were pretty upfront, though, and made some sense. Having one sibling die instead of the other depending on your class, not so much.

[Crimson Invictus]

Nohvarr wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Freedom?  I viewed it as closer to work release.

I would agree, espedcially since you are tossed out into a world that fears and hates you.

Nobel Mage: "I've come to save you from the blight"

Crowd: "Its a mage run!"

NM: *sigh*

The circle don't want you back and your status as a warden means the templers have to kill you if they want to stop you. It's like suggesting you have no freedom because you follow the law.

[Seagloom]

Maria Caliban wrote...

My problem is that I do know this and so I will metagame. When I sit at the character creation screen, my thought process will not be 'what class do I want to play?' but 'who do I want as a companion?'

This is the crux of it for me. Up until now I was set on playing a mage. I still kind of want to, but find I rather play a rogue instead to get Bethany as my familial sidekick. You later brought up KotOR2 as an example. I had a similar, but different problem in that game. After all these years I have yet to play with Handmaiden/Brianna along since it requires me to generate a male Exile. Perhaps Bethany and Carver are significant to the plot, but this manner of character recruitment is a pain.

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Maybe theres a mage/non mage family conflict within the story. Maybe we see how apostate status effected them from both the mage and the non mage perspective, internal and external, and so they needed to impose one of each.

edit: that actually makes a lot more sense than I'd assumed when writing it.

This was the same conclusion I reached after reading David Gaider's post. A forced conflict with your ideological opposite who is also a sibling might make for interesting drama and plot twists if there was lifelong tension building between them. It also makes two the non-magic classes retain a special role in the story regardless of which side PC-Hawke ends up on. It is interesting to theorize about, if nothing else.

Modifié par Seagloom, 20 décembre 2010 - 08:44 .

[upsettingshorts]

The Mage Warden is released to the more or less permanent life custody of the Grey Wardens. Freedom, to me, would be the First Enchanter throwing my phylactery up against the wall and then Greagoir opening the Tower door and saying, "Good luck out there."

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 20 décembre 2010 - 08:46 .