418 réponses à ce sujet

[Rekkampum]

Sajuro wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
Frankly, if "your friend" is that uncomfortable with 2 openly bisexual/lesbian women merely touching her character then she may be a tad oversensitive about her sexuality.

Not uncomfortable, just annoyed that it happens so frequently.

Anyways I've given up on this thread, the only real reason I continued to respond was I felt obligated to defend my position.

Besides, I'm pretty confident Tali's not going to be a LI for females in ME3 anyways.

3-4 times= frequent
classy way to go out Godwood
edit

Yeah, if you take into account the number of NPC's you can speak to the so-called "frequency" of females hitting on either Shepard is ridiculous if not exaggerated.

[jlb524]

These NPC are asari which is a species that are attracted to you no matter the gender.

One strokes your cheek and the other OMG hugs you.

I could cry about all the male squad mates that are potential LIs for my FemShep (who's a lesbian).  But I don't, as that's weaksauce.

Really, human homosexuality/bisexuality is sorely lacking.

Modifié par jlb524, 21 décembre 2010 - 08:49 .

[Thundertactics]

Right, I should remind you there's a thread dedicated to Tali's character, one where this very subject had been passed a while ago.
But I'll quote my thoughts on the subject:

Thundertactics wrote...

I wouldn't object to a bisexual Tali if it was properly executed. The chances of that happening are very slim, though, so I don't prefer it.

What's more likely, is a relationship with femShep similar to the one Tali's mother and Shala had, who even went as far as to link up suit enviroments, showing eachother their suitless forms (when Tali was born, but possibly before that as well). But not in any sexual way, rather exemplifying the immense trust they had in eachother, and the friendship they built on that trust.
I'm not saying Tali will get pregnant or anything, but I am saying that it's still entirely possible she'll show femShep her face, even without a romantic relationship between the two. Just a very strong friendship.
Tali's lines of "trust" and nigh hero worship for maleShep are reused for femShep up until the romance switch; which, in this case, can be interpreted as just that: Tali trusts femShep immensely, and respects her tremendously as well, and is perfectly willing to admit it. Though not to show a desire to become romantically involved, as it's interpreted for maleSheps.

The prerequisites for Tali's relationship and the strong friendship for femShep are very close, the main difference between the dialogue for femShep and maleShep being that Tali thinks maleShep is able to see past her mask. She wants maleShep to see her for who she is; not the suit, but the person. She wants maleShep to see her as a viable romantic option, even though she thinks that her suit would be debilitating, and thinks that would only bring harm to maleShep, that he wouldn't, and shouldn't accept that. MaleShep can affirm her wishes; and as a response, Tali is willing to literally show herself.

So yeah, what I'm trying to say is: The relationship between femShep and Tali can have a similar foundation, a similar strength, as the romantic one for maleShep. The difference being Tali's sexual preference; and her correlating sexual desires.

Then again, that's all up in the air until Mass Effect 3, this is just how I see it.

And I'll add the following, for those who didn't get it the first time around:

-Yes, the whole trust and hero worship thing are identical for both male and female Shepards, yet Tali is not willing to start a romantic relationship with femShep.
What does this mean?
It means the deciding factor is Shepard's gender.

-Using removed content as "evidence" or reason for complaint is plain silly. Plenty of things get cut from all sorts of media, including ME2, this really isn't the only thing. Whether this is some sort of "chickening out" on BioWare or EA's end is unclear, perhaps the writers simply felt that Tali wasn't suited for a f/f romance. Remember, in ME1, plenty of dialogue remained where both Meer and Hale had recorded lines for same sex romances. One even has Meer refer to himself as a woman. This is simply economically reusing script, the same thing they did for Tali, but kept in game.

Chances are, there are lines recorded for a same sex romance for the other characters as well, but these were simply removed at an earlier stage.
Tali's character has been defined as straight in this game, retconning that decision because of removed content makes no sense at all.

Though people could argue that Tali "repressing her desires" for maleShep in ME1 is retconning, and that the same could be done for femShep in ME2. I'm not entirely sure about this reasoning, and I won't argue against it for that very reason: I'm not sure about it.

-I repeat: BioWare's not going to add removed content back in, nor are they going to base future events on it.

Modifié par Thundertactics, 21 décembre 2010 - 08:56 .

[Xilizhra]

Hence why a modded version makes for better canon than the shipped version.

[HolyJellyfish]

@Thundertactics



I don't think that's the issue. I think the issue is that Tali has been scripted twice to be LI for Fem!Shep, and twice has been pulled.



There's a lot of ladies (and guys playing lady shepard) who want to romance Tali and feel that they should, since a lot of her romantic context with Fem!Shep still exists.



The quarian blushes for crying outloud after admitting her fondness for Fem!Shep and wanting to link up. And she even admits to Male!Shep that Quarians only do that on the most intimate terms.



Fem!Shep is as much as a mother to Tali as Male!Shep is a father. That's just a creepy comparison considering what was scripted.

[HolyJellyfish]

@Thundertactics



And, you said Bioware won't add removed contact (ever)



That's not true. They removed Tali's romance from the first game, and returned it to the second. Whose to suggest they can't open that door again in the third game, and offer a new LI for Male Sheps? Its a possibility, and you know it. Considering there always needs to be a Default option for ME3, building up a new romance or choosing another one is ALWAYS a viable option. ME2 certainly is proof of that.

[Thundertactics]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

@Thundertactics

I don't think that's the issue. I think the issue is that Tali has been scripted twice to be LI for Fem!Shep, and twice has been pulled.

There's a lot of ladies (and guys playing lady shepard) who want to romance Tali and feel that they should, since a lot of her romantic context with Fem!Shep still exists.

The quarian blushes for crying outloud after admitting her fondness for Fem!Shep and wanting to link up. And she even admits to Male!Shep that Quarians only do that on the most intimate terms.

Fem!Shep is as much as a mother to Tali as Male!Shep is a father. That's just a creepy comparison considering what was scripted.

Not once did I say femShep is like a mother to Tali. In fact, I said that the linking up ordeal can signify the immense mutual trust and respect they share, like Shala and Tali's mother apparantly had. A strong relationship, no romantic involvement required.

And again, cut content = cut content. Deal with it. (I'd elaborate on this subject, but that's the essence)
Rather than basing all your arguements on that, try to come up with a reasonable scenario as to why and/or how Tali and femShep would become romantically involved in ME3.

edit:

HolyJellyfish wrote...

@Thundertactics

And, you said Bioware won't add removed contact (ever)

That's not true. They removed Tali's romance from the first game, and returned it to the second. Whose to suggest they can't open that door again in the third game, and offer a new LI for Male Sheps? Its a possibility, and you know it. Considering there always needs to be a Default option for ME3, building up a new romance or choosing another one is ALWAYS a viable option. ME2 certainly is proof of that.

There you go, that's what I was looking for!

Modifié par Thundertactics, 21 décembre 2010 - 09:24 .

[Rekkampum]

Thundertactics wrote...

And I'll add the following, for those who didn't get it the first time around:

-Yes, the whole trust and hero worship thing are identical for both male and female Shepards, yet Tali is not willing to start a romantic relationship with femShep.
What does this mean?
It means the deciding factor is Shepard's gender.

No it doesn't, since LOTSB dossiers show that she has feelings for Shepard regardless of sex. That is a straw man.

-Using removed content as "evidence" or reason for complaint is plain silly. Plenty of things get cut from all sorts of media, including ME2, this really isn't the only thing. Whether this is some sort of "chickening out" on BioWare or EA's end is unclear, perhaps the writers simply felt that Tali wasn't suited for a f/f romance. Remember, in ME1, plenty of dialogue remained where both Meer and Hale had recorded lines for same sex romances. One even has Meer refer to himself as a woman. This is simply economically reusing script, the same thing they did for Tali, but kept in game.

Chances are, there are lines recorded for a same sex romance for the other characters as well, but these were simply removed at an earlier stage.
Tali's character has been defined as straight in this game, retconning that decision because of removed content makes no sense at all.

It's not silly, especially since this isn't the first time a character who was supposed to be bisexual was modified. Remember Kaidan?What happens next? It's obvious that Bioware cares more about sales than the so-called freedom that players have in sculpting their own versions of Shepard.

Tali's sexuality, as proven by the SB dossier, is not as defined as you imagine it. In fact, it would be clearly plausible to say she's modestly "curious" if you don't want to think she's "bi", and it is very reasonable for her to develop feelings for FemShep in the future. You can't retcon what's already there.

Though people could argue that Tali "repressing her desires" for maleShep in ME1 is retconning, and that the same could be done for femShep in ME2. I'm not entirely sure about this reasoning, and I won't argue against it for that very reason: I'm not sure about it.

-I repeat: BioWare's not going to add removed content back in, nor are they going to base future events on it.

If you play LOTSB, and you're a male Shep currently in a relationship in Tali, when you speak to Liara, she'll tell you that Tali already had the hots for him. Apparently, Tali's not the one to put her personal feelings out on the forefront. In the context of her character, seeing her voice feelings for FemShep in 3 wouldn't be any more unreasonable.

Thankfully, you aren't the last say on anything Bioware does.

[Larask]

jlb524 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

-sigh-
No, my friend who is female and has no interest in lesbian relationships is sick of having lesbian romances thrown at her which is a perfectly valid complaint as it's not like it's something that happens once or twice, it happens frequently.
Honestly, I can't even remember why I brought her up.

And you keep bringing this up.   What about when a gay male is sick of women throwing themselves at his male character?  And if they are...what should be done about that?

You are still applying a double standard.  If unwanted flirting is bad, all flirting/romances should be removed in order to avoid offending anyone.  However, only the f/f stuff is being targeted. 

Oh geez GodWood, your poor friend has to deal with fictional characters hitting on her. To be honest, I don't know why you guys keep getting so worried about having the non-preferred gender hitting on your Shepard. Relax, it shouldn't influence you at all unless you feel unsecure about yourself. Besides as jib said, what about the homosexuals Shepards who keep getting hit by the other gender? That is totally natural and we players understand that. And u know what it takes to solve this problem? Click on the option that says that you are not interested (OMG!!). If only real life was this easy huh?

In regards to Tali being bi. I don't see why they wouldn't use her an option for being bi, b/c is obvious that she admires Shepard regardless of gender. But of course that they will say that this is a decision they made for the character. So too bad I guess, and don't expect a DLC over this. Maybe ME3, but I don't see it happening. :/

[Thundertactics]

Rekkampum wrote...

No it doesn't, since LOTSB dossiers show that she has feelings for Shepard regardless of sex. That is a straw man.

If that's how you want to perceive that dossier, feel free to. But it's not as obvious as you make it seem.

It's not silly, especially since this isn't the first time a character who was supposed to be bisexual was modified. Remember Kaidan?What happens next? It's obvious that Bioware cares more about sales than the so-called freedom that players have in sculpting their own versions of Shepard.

Why are characters not allowed to have a predefined sexual preference? Why are developers not allowed to cut content you just so happened to like?

Tali's sexuality, as proven by the SB dossier, is not as defined as you imagine it. In fact, it would be clearly plausible to say she's modestly "curious" if you don't want to think she's "bi", and it is very reasonable for her to develop feelings for FemShep in the future. You can't retcon what's already there.

I never argued against her developing feelings in ME3, perhaps using what's currently here as a base.
Though I'm still against using the LotSB dossier as irrefutable proof of her having feelings for femShep.

If you play LOTSB, and you're a male Shep currently in a relationship in Tali, when you speak to Liara, she'll tell you that Tali already had the hots for him. Apparently, Tali's not the one to put her personal feelings out on the forefront. In the context of her character, seeing her voice feelings for FemShep in 3 wouldn't be any more unreasonable.

Again, what's with the dossier?

Thankfully, you aren't the last say on anything Bioware does.

As I said, this is merely my opinion.

Why do these same sex discussions always have to resort to such aggresive, utterly unreasonable measures?

[SmokePants]

Personally, I would never suspect Lady Sheperd of being straight. I'm surprised none of the male LI's react with astonishment when she expresses interest in them. "Wait a minute, it sounds like you're.... but I thought.... huh."

[Thundertactics]

SmokePants wrote...

Personally, I would never suspect Lady Sheperd of being straight. I'm surprised none of the male LI's react with astonishment when she expresses interest in them. "Wait a minute, it sounds like you're.... but I thought.... huh."

Shepard is very open to interpretation, and can be manipulated very deliberately. As such, his or her sexual preference can be decided by the player.
There are some limits, though. Such as the same sex romances people wish to take part in in order to express their Shepard's sexual preference, which they consider to take away from the role playing experience or the story as a whole, and I'd agree with that sentiment.
Females already get this to an extent with Liara, but it's still sorely lacking for males.

[Xilizhra]

Why are characters not allowed to have a predefined sexual preference? Why are developers not allowed to cut content you just so happened to like?

Clearly, they're allowed to. But we're allowed to express our displeasure.

Why do these same sex discussions always have to resort to such aggresive, utterly unreasonable measures?

The juvenile nature of Bioware's decisions on this matter already.

[Rekkampum]

Thundertactics wrote...
Why are characters not allowed to have a predefined sexual preference? Why are developers not allowed to cut content you just so happened to like?

As it turns out, the "predefined sexual preference" was obviously scrapped in favor of avoiding losing customers out of a common stigma against homosexuals - did you forget the sex controversy that the first got into over it? - especially male ones in the case of Kaidan. But no, there's absolutely no problem with continuing to exploit the sexuality of a sex that has already been objectified throughout history. This is not to gripe about other characters that have a predefined sexual preference - like Garrus, Miranda, or Jacob for instance - this is to gripe about the same type of material being cut from their product a considerable number of times, and in the case of the Third, will most likely happen again.

Again, what's with the dossier?

How does a conversation that you have with Liara about your relationship with Tali as Male Shep get relegated to the "dossier"?

As I said, this is merely my opinion.

Why do these same sex discussions always have to resort to such aggresive, utterly unreasonable measures?

There's nothing aggressive about my response. You deliberately made a claim for which you have no authority as though you did, and when i respond in kind to it, I'm the aggressive one? Or shall I quote what you said?

"-I repeat: BioWare's not going to add removed content back in, nor are they going to base future events on it."

SMH:pinched:

Modifié par Rekkampum, 21 décembre 2010 - 09:59 .

[Thundertactics]

Rekkampum wrote...


How does a conversation that you have with Liara about your relationship with Tali as Male Shep get relegated to the "dossier"?

Whoops, misread, my fault.

As I said, this is merely my opinion.

Why do these same sex discussions always have to resort to such aggresive, utterly unreasonable measures?

There's nothing aggressive about my response. You deliberately made a claim for which you have no authority as though you did, and when i respond in kind to it, I'm the aggressive one? Or shall I quote what you said?

"-I repeat: BioWare's not going to add removed content back in, nor are they going to base future events on it."

SMH:pinched:

Because it's true.
They might retcon it similar to the way it was before being cut; but to say they'll use removed content as base for any future events, let alone add it back in? That doesn't make any sense.

[antique_nova]

If someone wants a Tali romance option,
then they have every right to want it when you should know full well all
romance options are optional and any lesbian encounters can be knocked
in the stomach.

Optional or not they affect how the character is portrayed and ultimately effect the player's perception of the universe.

i fully agree with the above sentence, my perception of the game would change if i knew nearly every character had the bi option. my male shep would hever be able to sleep again in his quarters ^^. options can change perceptins, it doesn't matter if you choose it, it's the fact that the option is there.

plus i agree that using cut material as evidence isn't a good back up.thundertactics gave good points.  maybe they didnt put in a ME Tali romance due to time constraints or another unkown reason. maybe they felt the romance wouldn't work? just thrown out suggestions

who can say why Tali kept taking the stimulators off and on? you guys can't just use the because she's want to romance shep as the only reason. are you?
thundertactic i just wanted to know do you or do you not want a femshep tali romance option? pm me if you don't want to say in public

Modifié par antique_nova, 21 décembre 2010 - 10:04 .

[Rekkampum]

Thundertactics wrote...

Because it's true.
They might retcon it similar to the way it was before being cut; but to say they'll use removed content as base for any future events, let alone add it back in? That doesn't make any sense.

And yet, as has been shown a few posts earlier, they did. What we are talking about is nothing more than speculation, which can be disproven in the future. Your statement is still not definitive, therefore you have the burden of proof when you make such claims.

[Thundertactics]

Rekkampum wrote...

And yet, as has been shown a few posts earlier, they did. What we are talking about is nothing more than speculation, which can be disproven in the future. Your statement is still not definitive, therefore you have the burden of proof when you make such claims.

Retconning something is not the same as adding removed content, or basing anything off of it, regardless of inherent similarities of the eventual result.

[antique_nova]

do you think the poll really helps? i mean not everyone who likes Tali will see it and the poll is limited to the forum, not to all Talimancers out there.

[antique_nova]

retconning? what does it mean?

[Thundertactics]

antique_nova wrote...

retconning? what does it mean?

Retroactive continuity.
Basically, changing past events of a story in order to accomodate new ones better.

Sometimes, this can be very subtle, basing it off suspicions the fans have. That's the preferred method.
Sometimes, it's not so subtle, changing a fact the fans took for granted, occasionally alienating said fanbase.

Modifié par Thundertactics, 21 décembre 2010 - 10:13 .

[Rekkampum]

Thundertactics wrote...

Retconning something is not the same as adding removed content, or basing anything off of it, regardless of inherent similarities of the eventual result.

That's not an accurate denial of what's occurred. All they'd be doing is adding removed content as well, in the case of Tali, since such a relationship was already planned and she is not "strictly" heterosexual in any way, shape, or form. Her not being sexually-involved with Fem Shep is only a case of the option not being present in the game - if you added the dialogue as is to the current game there'd be virtually no difference otherwise. Again, a straw man.

[Thundertactics]

Rekkampum wrote...
if you added the dialogue as is to the current game there'd be virtually no difference otherwise.

Yes. Yes, there would be, because that wouldn't be done retroactively. (Perhaps in a development sense, but not in a continuity sense)
If they literally did that, I would eat my words and apologize.
Otherwise, it's referred to as "retconning".

I'm not quite sure why we're arguing about the very definition of words.

[antique_nova]

Thundertactics wrote...

antique_nova wrote...

retconning? what does it mean?

Retroactive continuity.
Basically, changing past events of a story in order to accomodate new ones better.

Sometimes, this can be very subtle, basing it off suspicions the fans have. That's the preferred method.
Sometimes, it's not so subtle, changing a fact the fans took for granted, occasionally alienating said fanbase.

haha, Bungie did the second retcon with Halo Reach alienating its authors and a reasonably large fanbase, one of them being me <_<

[didymos1120]

Thundertactics wrote...
I'm not quite sure why we're arguing about the very definition of words.

It's the internet?