418 réponses à ce sujet

[HolyJellyfish]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

So where in the you’re not entitled to love do you get entitlement to food?

Not what I said. I said you are need both love/sex and food. Unless you are a Salarian. Tali isn't a salarian. Relationships are pretty important to quarian culture. Last I checked, they are important to humans.

Yes. As human beings & from where Quarians still stand, there are a few essentials to living - Sex. Food. Water. Shelter.

Are players, who are gay, entitlted to these things as well? Yes. Should their character be able to have a gay option? Absolutely, especially since there are so many straight romances floating around. Is Tali fair game? yep yep yep. There is no reason she shouldn't be, unless budget really is an issue. But no one is arguing that. They are busy going off on tangeants about how much they want to keep their world as straight as possible. That is optional.

Love weather that’s m/m, f/f, or m/f is not a necessity to life. It makes it comfortable. It makes it nice but essential no.

WROOOOOOOOOOONG. People need relationships to stay functional, that's why they are so important in Mass Effect to character growth. Are LI essential to the game? Hell yes, if it means creating your character in the greater scheme of the RPG. And if there are a ton of m/f options, than m/m and another f/f is completely and totally fair game to people who can't connect with an m/f relationship.

Now if your going to go for the love is essential to repopulate the species you only need 24 people to fall in love and have sex to maintain that so if you've got a billion loves not a necessity at that time.

Yeah totally because that wouldn't cause inbreeding and the total death of an entire species at all.

Also for my prior statement somehow saying don't act on your own interest in who you choose where is that spelled out in there? I don't see it. If I told you to jump off a bridge would you do it? I think you're smart enough to know that you wouldn't. Now if you told me to throw myself in traffic would I do it? No. Why? Is it because I hate you? No  it's because I have sense not to.

I also think you are smart enough to realize that everyone deserves to fulfill their happy little RPG ways in a happy little RPG game, and if you are going to give one demograph all the love and attention and completely fail to throw a fish or two at the other demograph, you aren't doing your job.

By not offering at least another f/f option where it is viable (Tali), and for gods sake ONE m/m option, Bioware is doing a huge disservice to the fanbase by saying - Hey, guys. So... I hear you might be gay? Or play a gay character? Yeah. We don't care about you.

[HolyJellyfish]

Valcutio wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Valcutio wrote...

Tali isn't gay. Doesn't matter what almost was. Is that the arguement you'll accept?

Actually, there is no evidence to suggest that she is exclusively straight.  The only way to know for sure would be to ask her, as a FemShep, but you can't.

Also, SHADOW BROKER DOSSIER.

Yep.

 And she's a freaking alien. How she perceives relationships is completely different from how humans do.

And sexuality? Its fluid. There is no one set way.

The two people that created you might say differently.

You've never heard of lesbians doing it insemination style huh baby?

[jlb524]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

And sexuality? Its fluid. There is no one set way.

It can be for some but not others.

Valcutio wrote...

The two people that created you might say differently.

But, horrid counter argument as two gay people can procreate with each other.

Modifié par jlb524, 22 décembre 2010 - 07:29 .

[Valcutio]

Keep in mind that straight players aren't allowed to romance Morinth. Even if we want to. That's how life works - you can't always have everyone you want. I imagine being gay would come with many of those situations. Kurt on Glee is an excellent example - he couldn't have Finn, because Finn is a straight character.



Tali is a straight character. Get over it. I don't mind people asking for new characters that may be gay but to change current characters in that way is almost insulting. It's asking for everyone to accept a radical change in a character's personality that would make many change their opinions of a character that they already have an emotional investment in. If you're the type of person that believes a person is born gay then it would make sense you would agree with this logic.

[AdmiralCheez]

@Val: That's the thing, though, her straightness has not been canonically establiiiiished~~~

Oh, and you can totally romance Morinth. Seriously. Go try it. Doesn't end well, but it's possible.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 22 décembre 2010 - 07:35 .

[Nashiktal]

You know eventually they won't need two parents. See what happens to sexuality then.

[HolyJellyfish]

Valcutio wrote...

Keep in mind that straight players aren't allowed to romance Morinth. Even if we want to. That's how life works - you can't always have everyone you want. I imagine being gay would come with many of those situations. Kurt on Glee is an excellent example - he couldn't have Finn, because Finn is a straight character.

Tali is a straight character. Get over it. I don't mind people asking for new characters that may be gay but to change current characters in that way is almost insulting. It's asking for everyone to accept a radical change in a character's personality that would make many change their opinions of a character that they already have an emotional investment in.

God I love how the argument goes into "BUT WE STRAIGHT PEOPLE CAN'T DO TH-"

Yeah, I know you can't romance Morrinth! Guess who else can't? EVERYONE! Glad to know we are on the same page.

So, how would you feel if Mass Effect had ONLY M/M romances, one F/F, and ZERO M/F.

And Tali is a freaking alien. She's not straight identified or gay or anything. She just happens to sleep with Male Shepard first, and it'd be nice to have that relationship also explored from Fem!Shep. The only difference between F!Shep x Tali & M!Shep x Tali, is that M!Shep gets a sex scene. That is all. The romance still exists.

So why not explore it.

f you're the type of person that believes a person is born gay then it would make sense you would agree with this logic.

EDITTED, Misunderstood quote

I don't agree with the logic because Tali is obviously in love with F!shep minus sex scene?

Modifié par HolyJellyfish, 22 décembre 2010 - 07:39 .

[HolyJellyfish]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

Just how many squad members were supposed to be bisexual? I do remember that Ash and Kaidan were meant to be bi but they pulled it off.

What makes me angry is they keep pulling it. If the writers are so uncomfortable exploring those relationships, then maybe they should hire someone who can.

[Nashiktal]

Its probably not the writers who are uncomfortable.

[Crazyfulla]

Ahh yes "Tali a lesbian" we have dismissed that claim



on another note... thats what liara is for... Tali only likes males...i think/hope

NOONE STEALS MY TALI!!!



...where did that come from?

[Valcutio]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Valcutio wrote...

Keep in mind that straight players aren't allowed to romance Morinth. Even if we want to. That's how life works - you can't always have everyone you want. I imagine being gay would come with many of those situations. Kurt on Glee is an excellent example - he couldn't have Finn, because Finn is a straight character.

Tali is a straight character. Get over it. I don't mind people asking for new characters that may be gay but to change current characters in that way is almost insulting. It's asking for everyone to accept a radical change in a character's personality that would make many change their opinions of a character that they already have an emotional investment in.

God I love how the argument goes into "BUT WE STRAIGHT PEOPLE CAN'T DO TH-"

Yeah, I know you can't romance Morrinth! Guess who else can't? EVERYONE! Glad to know we are on the same page.

So, how would you feel if Mass Effect had ONLY M/M romances, one F/F, and ZERO M/F.

And Tali is a freaking alien. She's not straight identified or gay or anything. She just happens to sleep with Male Shepard first, and it'd be nice to have that relationship also explored from Fem!Shep. The only difference between F!Shep x Tali & M!Shep x Tali, is that M!Shep gets a sex scene. That is all. The romance still exists.

So why not explore it.

f you're the type of person that believes a person is born gay then it would make sense you would agree with this logic.

great... you are one of those people who realy believe sexual orientation is a choice. Yep. Makes sense. That's why so many people kill themselves every year because they choose to be gay and choose to be harassed, bullied, and hurt by narrow minded bigots.

Sounds like a wonderful idea.

If there was a futuristic game that only had male/male relationships then I'd imagine the population would be pretty low.

Also, please don't tell me what you think I believe. You don't know me so let's try not to be insulting (Or calling me baby... that's creepy). And being narrow minded works both ways. Just because a person is in a minority doesn't mean their viewpoints can't be hurtful to others. Try seeing this subject from the viewpoint of a person that believes that gay people have a "much" more difficult, if not impossible, road to entering Heaven (or whatever name various religions call their version of an afterlife paradise).

I'm not arguing that being gay is right or wrong - that seems your issue. My issue is changing an established character's personality so drastically that others would be forced to change their perceptions of that character. It's not always a simple issue of "OH, WE WANT THIS CHARACTER TO BE THIS." - Sometimes, that character just isn't.

[Nashiktal]

Hey val, Miranda only had one parent. Her father. Not even a donor egg or anything. If they have that technology, population is fine, no matter the sexuality.

[jlb524]

rynluna wrote...

Crazyfulla wrote...
 Tali only likes males...i think/hope
NOONE STEALS MY TALI!!!

...where did that come from?

Insecure, much?

The funny thing is, my LI of choice, Liara, also romances the Shepard that is not my preferred Shepard for a romance with her (I prefer FemShep).  Do I campaign to remove the DudeShep variety of her romance?  NO!  Why?  Because that is dumb.  Also, Liara is so awesome she should be available for everyone.

[Valcutio]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

@Val: That's the thing, though, her straightness has not been canonically establiiiiished~~~

Oh, and you can totally romance Morinth. Seriously. Go try it. Doesn't end well, but it's possible.

Ok, here's the thing. A character or person doesn't NEED to establish the fact that they're straight. We can beat around the bush as much as we like but the truth is that a man being attracted to a female and a female being attracted to a man is "normal" (Yes a very controversial term). If it wasn't that way then our species would have died out long, long ago.

A character DOES have to establish if they are gay. That might not sound fair to some people but it's the truth. Just like a character would have to establish the fact that they have a foot fetish. Is there anything wrong with having a foot fetish? No. But it would need to be established because the vast majority of people don't have foot fetishes. Atleast, not that I know of.....

[jlb524]

Valcutio wrote...

If there was a futuristic game that only had male/male relationships then I'd imagine the population would be pretty low.

Not necessarily.  Gay people's parts still work and there is always artificial insemination.

Valcutio wrote...
Also, please don't tell me what you think I believe. You don't know me so let's try not to be insulting (Or calling me baby... that's creepy). And being narrow minded works both ways. Just because a person is in a minority doesn't mean their viewpoints can't be hurtful to others. Try seeing this subject from the viewpoint of a person that believes that gay people have a "much" more difficult, if not impossible, road to entering Heaven (or whatever name various religions call their version of an afterlife paradise).

Started out okay, endend in a lolwut???

Valcutio wrote...

I'm not arguing that being gay is right or wrong - that seems your issue. My issue is changing an established character's personality so drastically that others would be forced to change their perceptions of that character. It's not always a simple issue of "OH, WE WANT THIS CHARACTER TO BE THIS." - Sometimes, that character just isn't.

Really?  Your perceptions of Tali's character would totally change b/c she's bi? 

Also, judging from ME1, Tali wasn't interested in humans, but then a bunch of people wanted her character to be 'this' i.e., attracted to human males.  Maybe she wasn't?  Fan demand changed that, apparently, so I don't see why fan demand can't make her an f/f LI also.

[Chuvvy]

Right, and Kaiden will be made a gay romance. I also love that this game is all about choice, unless it's about sexual orientation. Because that's predefined, gay or lesbian? **** outta luck.



Oh bioware, you so crazy.

[Valcutio]

Nashiktal wrote...

Hey val, Miranda only had one parent. Her father. Not even a donor egg or anything. If they have that technology, population is fine, no matter the sexuality.

Cloning adds a whole new layer of issues.... I'm too sleepy to even begin to contemplate cloning. Haha. To be fair though, Miranda hates the fact that she's a clone.

[jlb524]

Slidell505 wrote...

Right, and Kaiden will be made a gay romance. I also love that this game is all about choice, unless it's about sexual orientation. Because that's predefined, gay or lesbian? **** outta luck.

Oh bioware, you so crazy.

It's your space fantasy unless you are a gay male...then you are out of luck. <_<

[HolyJellyfish]

Valcutio wrote...

If there was a futuristic game that only had male/male relationships then I'd imagine the population would be pretty low.

Also, please don't tell me what you think I believe. You don't know me so let's try not to be insulting (Or calling me baby... that's creepy). And being narrow minded works both ways. Just because a person is in a minority doesn't mean their viewpoints can't be hurtful to others. Try seeing this subject from the viewpoint of a person that believes that gay people have a "much" more difficult, if not impossible, road to entering Heaven (or whatever name various religions call their version of an afterlife paradise).

I'm not arguing that being gay is right or wrong - that seems your issue. My issue is changing an established character's personality so drastically that others would be forced to change their perceptions of that character. It's not always a simple issue of "OH, WE WANT THIS CHARACTER TO BE THIS." - Sometimes, that character just isn't.

Not in Mass Effect's world o/` Look at Mirraaanda. yaay for suspension of belief technology.

Yeah...... As for the bold type? They have no sympathy of mine. For one, I don't believe in hell. For two? Who would ever empathize with someone who believes within their hearts of hearts that who they love would condemn someone from paradise? That's just disturbing. I don't see Gay people running down the streets condemning those guys to hell. Quite the opposite. They just want to live their lives.

Tali isn't going through a personality change. Its mentioned over and over again that she romantically is interested in Shep regardless of gender. The only difference is a cutscene, which was probably taken out of the game for reasons outside of the story.

We are asking to return it.

[Nashiktal]

Not cloned, genetically engineered. Cloning is a whole 'nother banana.

[khevan]

While I have no problem with other people being ******/bi-sexual, I am a raging heterosexual, and the idea of a sexual relationship with another man squicks me out, personally. This is not intended as a slam against those of you who feel differently, but this is the honest truth as it pertains to me.



What this means in context of this discussion, previous squadmates who my Shepards have developed relationships with, if they suddenly started showing interest in my Shepard, it would wierd me out, and I would not like it at all. I'm totally fine with a new, honest to goodness gay character for ME3, and even if that one showed interest, I'd be fine with it. I'd obviously turn the guy down with a quickness, but it wouldn't bother me, because there's been no previous (platonic) relationship that would be changed.



This all being said, I wouldn't object to current squadmates being open to same sex relationships in ME3, if there was a way to avoid this content if you wished. I'm not sure what the best way to do that is, if it were done via free DLC that you didn't have to download if you didn't want, or some other means, or whatever. I don't want to deprive people of the opportunity to have a lesbian romance with Tali, or a gay romance with Kaidan or whatever, I just personally don't want it easily accessible so that "my" story doesn't change.



Call me a homophobe if you want, I won't respond to flamebait. This is just my honest opinion, and really, it won't affect whether or not I buy ME3. I'd just prefer it to be this way, but in any case, I really really hope Bioware puts s/s romances in ME3. It's long past time that we get away from stereotypes and prejudice about this issue.

[Valcutio]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Valcutio wrote...

If there was a futuristic game that only had male/male relationships then I'd imagine the population would be pretty low.

Also, please don't tell me what you think I believe. You don't know me so let's try not to be insulting (Or calling me baby... that's creepy). And being narrow minded works both ways. Just because a person is in a minority doesn't mean their viewpoints can't be hurtful to others. Try seeing this subject from the viewpoint of a person that believes that gay people have a "much" more difficult, if not impossible, road to entering Heaven (or whatever name various religions call their version of an afterlife paradise).

I'm not arguing that being gay is right or wrong - that seems your issue. My issue is changing an established character's personality so drastically that others would be forced to change their perceptions of that character. It's not always a simple issue of "OH, WE WANT THIS CHARACTER TO BE THIS." - Sometimes, that character just isn't.

Not in Mass Effect's world o/` Look at Mirraaanda. yaay for suspension of belief technology.

Yeah...... As for the bold type? They have no sympathy of mine. For one, I don't believe in hell. For two? Who would ever empathize with someone who believes within their hearts of hearts that who they love would condemn someone from paradise? That's just disturbing. I don't see Gay people running down the streets condemning those guys to hell. Quite the opposite. They just want to live their lives.

Tali isn't going through a personality change. Its mentioned over and over again that she romantically is interested in Shep regardless of gender. The only difference is a cutscene, which was probably taken out of the game for reasons outside of the story.

We are asking to return it.

About the bold type - If you can't sympathize with them - them being people who believe something with all their hearts - how can you expect them to sympathize with you?

About the rest - A person can love another person without it being sexual. I don't think Tali says a single thing that would lead a female character to believe there was a chance at a romantic relationship, please correct me if I'm wrong. I have guy friends that I love but the first time one of them tries to kiss me we're going to have to have a boundary discussion.