418 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

khevan wrote...

While I have no problem with other people being ******/bi-sexual, I am a raging heterosexual, and the idea of a sexual relationship with another man squicks me out, personally. This is not intended as a slam against those of you who feel differently, but this is the honest truth as it pertains to me.

Having a relationship with a guy squicks me out too...no big deal.

khevan wrote...
What this means in context of this discussion, previous squadmates who my Shepards have developed relationships with, if they suddenly started showing interest in my Shepard, it would wierd me out, and I would not like it at all. I'm totally fine with a new, honest to goodness gay character for ME3, and even if that one showed interest, I'd be fine with it. I'd obviously turn the guy down with a quickness, but it wouldn't bother me, because there's been no previous (platonic) relationship that would be changed.

Well, my gay FemShep had a platonic relationship with Garrus and now I guess they could have more in ME2...doesn't bother me personally...I still turn him down.

khevan wrote...

This all being said, I wouldn't object to current squadmates being open to same sex relationships in ME3, if there was a way to avoid this content if you wished. I'm not sure what the best way to do that is, if it were done via free DLC that you didn't have to download if you didn't want, or some other means, or whatever. I don't want to deprive people of the opportunity to have a lesbian romance with Tali, or a gay romance with Kaidan or whatever, I just personally don't want it easily accessible so that "my" story doesn't change.

Right on...this content is always avoidable if you don't want it...as is the m/f content that I don't want.  'My' Shepard is still very much a lesbian even when Kaidan/Thane/Garrus/Jacob are available m/f romances for her....she's flattered by their attention, but they get turned down.

khevan wrote...

Call me a homophobe if you want, I won't respond to flamebait. This is just my honest opinion, and really, it won't affect whether or not I buy ME3. I'd just prefer it to be this way, but in any case, I really really hope Bioware puts s/s romances in ME3. It's long past time that we get away from stereotypes and prejudice about this issue.

LOL, your post was in no way homophobic at all.

[HolyJellyfish]

khevan wrote...

While I have no problem with other people being ******/bi-sexual, I am a raging heterosexual, and the idea of a sexual relationship with another man squicks me out, personally. This is not intended as a slam against those of you who feel differently, but this is the honest truth as it pertains to me.

What this means in context of this discussion, previous squadmates who my Shepards have developed relationships with, if they suddenly started showing interest in my Shepard, it would wierd me out, and I would not like it at all. I'm totally fine with a new, honest to goodness gay character for ME3, and even if that one showed interest, I'd be fine with it. I'd obviously turn the guy down with a quickness, but it wouldn't bother me, because there's been no previous (platonic) relationship that would be changed.

This all being said, I wouldn't object to current squadmates being open to same sex relationships in ME3, if there was a way to avoid this content if you wished. I'm not sure what the best way to do that is, if it were done via free DLC that you didn't have to download if you didn't want, or some other means, or whatever. I don't want to deprive people of the opportunity to have a lesbian romance with Tali, or a gay romance with Kaidan or whatever, I just personally don't want it easily accessible so that "my" story doesn't change.

Call me a homophobe if you want, I won't respond to flamebait. This is just my honest opinion, and really, it won't affect whether or not I buy ME3. I'd just prefer it to be this way, but in any case, I really really hope Bioware puts s/s romances in ME3. It's long past time that we get away from stereotypes and prejudice about this issue.

Thanks dude.

Its very easy to reject the s/s advances. The minute you knock it down, the other character is like 'Oh okay cool. we be cool.' Trust me. I shot down Liara so fast, planets spun. After that, she really wasn't interested in me.

But I'm glad, even though it may make you feel uncomfortable, you'd be willing to push back that discomfort just a bit so other people can get there fair share. Its more than what a lot of players are willing to do. People think that since they prefer cake, all the players should get cake. Its unfair and doesn't work that way.

[HolyJellyfish]

Valcutio wrote...


About the bold type - If you can't sympathize with them - them being people who believe something with all their hearts - how can you expect them to sympathize with you?

uhhh... because they think I might go to hell and therefore my opinion is invalid? I'm not the one throwing the first shot, they are. They are attacking me based on my sexuality. Attacking ME.

If someone was shooting you in the face, would you be willing to pause and sympathize with all the reasons they are doing it? Or would you get defensive?

About the rest - A person can love another person without it being sexual. I don't think Tali says a single thing that would lead a female character to believe there was a chance at a romantic relationship, please correct me if I'm wrong. I have guy friends that I love but the first time one of them tries to kiss me we're going to have to have a boundary discussion.

Yes. They can.

But Tali explicitely makes moves towards Fem!Shep. She wants to link up suits. She takes all the precautions for a possible link up (Look at the Shadow Broker Dossiers). And she admits that it is an incredibly intimate thing, that only lovers usually perform.

That's great you have boundary issues. This isn't about your interests and disinterests. This is about the interests of other people for a fictional character who shows interest to both shepards regardless of gender.

[jlb524]

Personally, I don't get or agree with the arguments that Tali is interested in FemShep in ME2. However, I don't feel that precludes a retconning of her interests so she can be FemShep romanceable in ME3.

Modifié par jlb524, 22 décembre 2010 - 08:18 .

[Rekkampum]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Valcutio wrote...


About the bold type - If you can't sympathize with them - them being people who believe something with all their hearts - how can you expect them to sympathize with you?

uhhh... because they think I might go to hell and therefore my opinion is invalid? I'm not the one throwing the first shot, they are. They are attacking me based on my sexuality. Attacking ME.

If someone was shooting you in the face, would you be willing to pause and sympathize with all the reasons they are doing it? Or would you get defensive?

About the rest - A person can love another person without it being sexual. I don't think Tali says a single thing that would lead a female character to believe there was a chance at a romantic relationship, please correct me if I'm wrong. I have guy friends that I love but the first time one of them tries to kiss me we're going to have to have a boundary discussion.

Yes. They can.

But Tali explicitely makes moves towards Fem!Shep. She wants to link up suits. She takes all the precautions for a possible link up (Look at the Shadow Broker Dossiers). And she admits that it is an incredibly intimate thing, that only lovers usually perform.

That's great you have boundary issues. This isn't about your interests and disinterests. This is about the interests of other people for a fictional character who shows interest to both shepards regardless of gender.

That.

[Valcutio]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Valcutio wrote...


About the bold type - If you can't sympathize with them - them being people who believe something with all their hearts - how can you expect them to sympathize with you?

uhhh... because they think I might go to hell and therefore my opinion is invalid? I'm not the one throwing the first shot, they are. They are attacking me based on my sexuality. Attacking ME.

If someone was shooting you in the face, would you be willing to pause and sympathize with all the reasons they are doing it? Or would you get defensive?

About the rest - A person can love another person without it being sexual. I don't think Tali says a single thing that would lead a female character to believe there was a chance at a romantic relationship, please correct me if I'm wrong. I have guy friends that I love but the first time one of them tries to kiss me we're going to have to have a boundary discussion.

Yes. They can.

But Tali explicitely makes moves towards Fem!Shep. She wants to link up suits. She takes all the precautions for a possible link up (Look at the Shadow Broker Dossiers). And she admits that it is an incredibly intimate thing, that only lovers usually perform.

That's great you have boundary issues. This isn't about your interests and disinterests. This is about the interests of other people for a fictional character who shows interest to both shepards regardless of gender.

First of all, a person that believes in a religion isn't attacking you - the religion itself is. This may sound confusing but those are two very different things. Just because a person believes you're going to hell doesn't mean they dislike you or want bad things for you. If anything, you would be a target for sympathy for most people in that position.

Aaaand the Dossiers prove nothing. I haven't viewed them as a female character but unless it names fem shep for linking up then there's nothing there. Anything else?

[jlb524]

Valcutio wrote...

First of all, a person that believes in a religion isn't attacking you - the religion itself is. This may sound confusing but those are two very different things. Just because a person believes you're going to hell doesn't mean they dislike you or want bad things for you. If anything, you would be a target for sympathy for most people in that position.

Yeah, they just want you to go to hell...

Valcutio wrote...
Aaaand the Dossiers prove nothing. I haven't viewed them as a female character but unless it names fem shep for linking up then there's nothing there. Anything else?

I agree.  But, as I stated, this does not preclude that Tali can be interested in females in ME3.

[khevan]

I can see the argument that Tali could be romanceable by FemSheps. That dialogue is, in my opinion, easily viewed as an akward "foot in the mouth moment" from Tali, where she didn't mean to say that liking suits had to lead to intimacy, it just usually does...or it could mean exactly what it means to a M!Shep. I can see either side to be honest. I don't necessarily think that Tali was meant to be bisexual, but I can see where it's easily seen that way.



Personally, I'm absolutely baffled why Jack wasn't available to be romanced by F!Sheps. Some of her dialogue strongly implies that she was involved in prior s/s relationships. To me, she should have been a lesbian romance option, or at least a bi option.

[jlb524]

khevan wrote...

I can see the argument that Tali could be romanceable by FemSheps. That dialogue is, in my opinion, easily viewed as an akward "foot in the mouth moment" from Tali, where she didn't mean to say that liking suits had to lead to intimacy, it just usually does...or it could mean exactly what it means to a M!Shep. I can see either side to be honest. I don't necessarily think that Tali was meant to be bisexual, but I can see where it's easily seen that way.

Agree.

khevan wrote...
Personally, I'm absolutely baffled why Jack wasn't available to be romanced by F!Sheps. Some of her dialogue strongly implies that she was involved in prior s/s relationships. To me, she should have been a lesbian romance option, or at least a bi option.

Agree...I personally think Jack was meant to be the bisexual LI but it was cut.  There are too many hints there.

[Valcutio]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

But I'm glad, even though it may make you feel uncomfortable, you'd be willing to push back that discomfort just a bit so other people can get there fair share. Its more than what a lot of players are willing to do. People think that since they prefer cake, all the players should get cake. Its unfair and doesn't work that way.

Video Games are a legitimate artform. Let's not lend credence to people who believe otherwise by making game writers' works obsolete by making characters wishy-washy playthings that can change based on a player's every whim. That's what fanfiction is for. Certain things like changing a character's mind about something, for example to kill somebody or not, is one thing. To change their entire sexual orientation though? Why not change a character's race why you're at it. Don't like the fact that Jacob is black? Change it. Want Ashley to be Asian? Change it. Want Tali to suddenly be gay? Change it. And by doing so - ruin the lore that the writers have established.

The character you play as is a different subject entirely. If you want to play a gay toon - go for it. But to change the entire lore of a static character that EVERYONE has come to know is an entirely different subject.

[Valcutio]

jlb524 wrote...

Valcutio wrote...

First of all, a person that believes in a religion isn't attacking you - the religion itself is. This may sound confusing but those are two very different things. Just because a person believes you're going to hell doesn't mean they dislike you or want bad things for you. If anything, you would be a target for sympathy for most people in that position.

Yeah, they just want you to go to hell...

Valcutio wrote...
Aaaand the Dossiers prove nothing. I haven't viewed them as a female character but unless it names fem shep for linking up then there's nothing there. Anything else?

I agree.  But, as I stated, this does not preclude that Tali can be interested in females in ME3.

No. They don't want gay people to go to Hell. They just assume that path leads there. Very big difference.

[jlb524]

Valcutio wrote...

Video Games are a legitimate artform. Let's not lend credence to people who believe otherwise by making game writers' works obsolete by making characters wishy-washy playthings that can change based on a player's every whim.

You already can change their moralities.....

Valcutio wrote...

To change their entire sexual orientation though? Why not change a character's race why you're at it. Don't like the fact that Jacob is black? Change it. Want Ashley to be Asian? Change it. Want Tali to suddenly be gay? Change it. And by doing so - ruin the lore that the writers have established.

The difference is that Jacob's and Ashley's races are apparent and set in stone while Tali's sexuality is not.

[jlb524]

Valcutio wrote...

No. They don't want gay people to go to Hell. They just assume that path leads there. Very big difference.

And then they don't want gay people to be gay so they won't go to hell...

[khevan]

Valcutio wrote...

Video Games are a legitimate artform. Let's not lend credence to people who believe otherwise by making game writers' works obsolete by making characters wishy-washy playthings that can change based on a player's every whim. That's what fanfiction is for. Certain things like changing a character's mind about something, for example to kill somebody or not, is one thing. To change their entire sexual orientation though? Why not change a character's race why you're at it. Don't like the fact that Jacob is black? Change it. Want Ashley to be Asian? Change it. Want Tali to suddenly be gay? Change it. And by doing so - ruin the lore that the writers have established.

The character you play as is a different subject entirely. If you want to play a gay toon - go for it. But to change the entire lore of a static character that EVERYONE has come to know is an entirely different subject.

My response is entirely about the bolded text above.

Sexual orientation cannot be compared to a person's ethnicity.  One can be hidden, and often has in order to meet expectations from family, friends, society, etc.  The other, obviously, cannot.  You are asian, or you aren't.  You're black, or you're not.  You can appear to be heterosexual, and yet be a closeted homosexual.  You cannot tell from looking at someone, or by interacting with that person, what their sexual orientation is, unless they're very open about it.

Modifié par khevan, 22 décembre 2010 - 08:35 .

[Valcutio]

jlb524 wrote...

Valcutio wrote...

No. They don't want gay people to go to Hell. They just assume that path leads there. Very big difference.

And then they don't want gay people to be gay so they won't go to hell...

If you believed that eating pancakes made your head explode - wouldn't you want ppl to stop eating pancakes? I love pancakes...

[HolyJellyfish]

Valcutio wrote...


First of all, a person that believes in a religion isn't attacking you - the religion itself is. This may sound confusing but those are two very different things. Just because a person believes you're going to hell doesn't mean they dislike you or want bad things for you. If anything, you would be a target for sympathy for most people in that position.

Actually, they can choose to believe certain aspects of religion. My godmother is a lesbian who is also an ordained minister. She doesn't believe she's going to hell and doesn't judge people based on their sexual preferences. Because she CHOOSES not to.

So yes, its a choice. People either choose to follow a sect of religion that hurts and insults people or they don't. By choosing that religion, they are attacking and hurting me, because they earnestly believe in that hatred.

Aaaand the Dossiers prove nothing. I haven't viewed them as a female character but unless it names fem shep for linking up then there's nothing there. Anything else?

Shadow broker files

What were you saying?

Read - Human Courtship & Mating.

Modifié par HolyJellyfish, 22 décembre 2010 - 08:36 .

[HunterX6]

isnt being bi or gay a disease?.....i heard you can get cancer! =o

Modifié par HunterX6, 22 décembre 2010 - 08:38 .

[HolyJellyfish]

Valcutio wrote...

If you believed that eating pancakes made your head explode - wouldn't you want ppl to stop eating pancakes? I love pancakes...

Ah yes. Equating hatred and fear towards gay people with pancakes. Good way to make a deeply evil subject fun and playful.

[Pacifien]

Real life sociological, political, and religious topics are not appropriate discussions to be had on this gaming forum. If you feel like continuing such discussion with someone, I suggest taking it to PM. If you would like to discuss Tali as a character, I suggest the character discussion forum. If you would like to discuss the inclusion of same-sex relationships in the Mass Effect series, I suggest this thread. If people feel that my closing this thread is unnecessary, I suggest they send me a PM to make their case because I cannot see it.