196 réponses à ce sujet

[Dagiz]

Addai67 wrote...

Naturally the game is what it is and no changes are going to be made at this point, and we're probably fooling ourselves that what we say here has any bearing on future stuff in the franchise, either.  Hope springs eternal, I guess?

P.S. If you really want to cut through the chatter and just get down to the nitty gritty of how things work, click on the BioWare icon below the thread title and you'll only see the dev posts.

Oh I do click on the Bioware tags...in fact I do so almost exclusively these days.  However, you actually miss a lot of discussion and some of it is quite interesting.  Other times it is great as it cuts through the bull, or at least what I view as bull.  I didn't quote it, but you are right, what I  consider meaningless in fact may not be for someone else.  And believe me I could care less about someone's chest hair.  And moreso someone's sperm...as I really hope that others do as well...but I am a realist and I know that people are going to speak about Fenris' sperm (and if there really is a discussion about that...well let's just keep it hidden from me). 

As far as what is being said here having a bearing on the future of the franchise...well that is interesting.  I think in certain respects it might.  But I think it will have more bearing once the game has been shipped and played through a few hundred, thousand times by lots of different people and everyone gets to "test" out the system.  I seem to recall that Obsidian made certain changes to the overland map for NWN2 because forum goers were suggesting ro asking for things that they thought would be a good idea.  The key being, the idea has to be good enough that it sways the developers.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
This is partly why I think EVE is one of the very best computer games ever made.  In fact, I'm putting it in my top 5.

This I  agree with.

[Maria Caliban]

Addai67 wrote...

I can only speak for myself, but I'm here because I want to like the game and am looking for things to like.  Granted, I haven't found much, and I end up complaining a lot.  But it's only "meaningless" because you're not interested in it, just as I am not interested in reading page after page about Varric's chest hair or Fenris' sperm (lyrium spiked for pleasure!).

One person made a joke in a 100+ thread and it's now 'page after page' of sperm?

Naturally the game is what it is and no changes are going to be made at this point, and we're probably fooling ourselves that what we say here has any bearing on future stuff in the franchise, either.  Hope springs eternal, I guess?

I disagree. The developers do listen to people's thoughts on their games. I will say that many people who dislike elements of the game tend to communicate in the worst way possible. No, you can't influence the design of Dragon Age 2, but you can certainly influence that of Dragon Age 3.

[HighMoon]

David Gaider wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...
I do think we were told that we don't have the cycles.

I'm assuming he means when we play through an area, we can show up later in the narrative at night.

We don't have day-night transitions... meaning that an area won't shift from day to night while you stand around. There are areas, however, that have both day and night versions and you can go to either (actively controlling whether it's "day" or "night" at the world map level). Sometimes this will be important.

Oooh! Will there be "in between" periods as well? (e.g. sunset, early morning)

[Mike Laidlaw]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I disagree. The developers do listen to people's thoughts on their games. I will say that many people who dislike elements of the game tend to communicate in the worst way possible. No, you can't influence the design of Dragon Age 2, but you can certainly influence that of Dragon Age 3.

The problem is that until the game comes out, the signal to noise ratio is remarkably poor. Right now, I can only react to people's interpretations of the design of Dragon Age II, and the most vocal reactions, also tend to be the most extreme interpretations, in the vein of, "So, you have a dialog wheel? Oh, so I guess I spend the whole game firing my bow from cover and you've cut the inventory screen and I'm in a spaceship?!?!?!?"*

It's not the most useful dialog to have, as, of course, we're not at liberty to detail every decision we have made in exhaustive detail. And even if we were, we would not, as there are very important things to be done to finish Dragon Age II that take precedence.

I personally appreciate the passion that DA: O evoked, and can sympathize with people's concerns over changes. But blind rage in the face of, what? More than half a dozen positive, and theoretically reassuring previews? That doesn't hold a lot of sway with me.


*And yes, I have been asked all three of those things on seperate occassions. Only one person was joking.

[Addai]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I can only speak for myself, but I'm here because I want to like the game and am looking for things to like.  Granted, I haven't found much, and I end up complaining a lot.  But it's only "meaningless" because you're not interested in it, just as I am not interested in reading page after page about Varric's chest hair or Fenris' sperm (lyrium spiked for pleasure!).

One person made a joke in a 100+ thread and it's now 'page after page' of sperm?

Let's face it, that thread's been weird from day one.

I disagree. The developers do listen to people's thoughts on their games. I will say that many people who dislike elements of the game tend to communicate in the worst way possible. No, you can't influence the design of Dragon Age 2, but you can certainly influence that of Dragon Age 3.

Maybe.  I tend to think market forces talk more loudly and the forums are minuscule in that.  That's what the devs have also said.

[Dagiz]

Addai67 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I disagree. The developers do listen to people's thoughts on their games. I will say that many people who dislike elements of the game tend to communicate in the worst way possible. No, you can't influence the design of Dragon Age 2, but you can certainly influence that of Dragon Age 3.

Maybe.  I tend to think market forces talk more loudly and the forums are minuscule in that.  That's what the devs have also said.

I  am going to totally ignore the fact that there was ever mention of sperm...especially when relating to a video game.

But while the forums may be miniscule at least in terms of overall numbers of consumers visiting and voicing concerns or outright demanding the heads of developers for not making the game they wanted, the fact that the developers, lead writers, members of the creative team, and quite a few others respond to inquiries and discussions on the product, well maybe I'm a little optimistic and some may say naive, but for me that says a lot.  That says to me that they are looking at what is being said and taking some things into consideration. 

The key though like I said is that any true feedback on the game design will not occur until everyone has had a chance to play through the game.  Anything else really, as Mike pointed out, is an interpretation on the design without any hard facts of knowing that this is exactly what it was like.  And even that is subjective as each person has different likes and dislikes.

Let's say that dialog wheel ends up being a real pain.  I mean a real pain to the point there are 50 some odd pages of posts asking for it change.  My money is on the devs looking at that and at the very least talking about what changes could be made if any.

I know that CCP tries to accomplish with their game and to some extent they do listen to the people who play the game.  But not everything that is asked for gets thrown into their game. 

Devs do listen.  How much is really dependent on the discussion.  Key word being discussion and not a ranting and raving about how much X sucks in the game.

Modifié par Dagiz, 23 décembre 2010 - 01:56 .

[Winter Wraith]

Dagiz wrote...
I  am going to totally ignore the fact that there was ever mention of sperm...especially when relating to a video game.

Do you imagine every BioWare romance ends in unicorns and rainbows?

[Dagiz]

Winter Wraith wrote...

Dagiz wrote...
I  am going to totally ignore the fact that there was ever mention of sperm...especially when relating to a video game.

Do you imagine every BioWare romance ends in unicorns and rainbows?

Yes. 

Also includes little fluffy bunnies.

[Inzhuna]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Wissenschaft wrote...

The fact is that DA2 is a story being told by Varric. The lines Hawke says are basicly what Varric claims hawke said. So its rather fitting we don't see the exact lines we are going to say because in truth its Varric that is coming up with the lines.

That is a terrific way to look at it.

I agree! It makes so much sense! I will think of this if my Hawke ever says something I didn't mean for her to say. 

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...
Maybe.  I tend to think market forces talk more loudly and the forums are minuscule in that.  That's what the devs have also said.

But that doesn't mean they don't take feedback into account. Take the dialogue wheel, for instance. The fact tht the paraphrase was unclear was a massive complaint on the ME forum. Most of those who complained wanted a return to silent VO. Bioware did not do this. But they did come up with a way to try to improve the accesibility to the wheel. That doesn't mean forum feedback played a role - they might have done it anyway - but it might have.

And that's likely the only sort of pipeline we have toward development. Our feedback on features matters only insofar as how Bioware decides to implement them, not neccesarily if (speaking of the forum, now).

edit: for clarity

Modifié par In Exile, 23 décembre 2010 - 04:39 .

[AlanC9]

In Exile wrote...
Take the dialogue wheel, for instance. The fact tht the paraphrase was unclear was a massive complaint on the ME forum. Most wanted a return to silent VO.

Most of the complainers, that is. 

Just figured we really need to be clear about that.

[In Exile]

AlanC9 wrote...
Most of the complainers, that is. 

Just figured we really need to be clear about that.

Yes, thank you. That was unclear as I re-read.

[IRMcGhee]

Never really understood the problem with the ME paraphrases, I had far, far more problems with misinterpreting the tone of DA:O PC dialogue choices (first time through the game).

[Brockololly]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...
I personally appreciate the passion that DA: O evoked, and can sympathize with people's concerns over changes. But blind rage in the face of, what? More than half a dozen positive, and theoretically reassuring previews? That doesn't hold a lot of sway with me.

But surely not everyone with legitimate concerns is simply engaging in "blind rage"? Based on how ME handled the voiced PC, I know that compared to Origins and the Silent PC Warden, that in part due to the VO'd Shep, I didn't give a damn about Shep and most of the characters. So when I read how DA2 is adopting a similar voiced PC /cinematic approach, thats not instilling much excitement in me. I'll wait and see how the game plays out of course- my expectations can't be much lower-  but it really sucks to see alot of what I enjoyed in Origins tossed to the curb.

I wouldn't say those concerns are simply "blind rage," especially when the manner in which the game has largely been presented thus far is seemingly trying to show how different it is from Origins.

[In Exile]

Brockololly wrote...

But surely not everyone with legitimate concerns is simply engaging in "blind rage"? Based on how ME handled the voiced PC, I know that compared to Origins and the Silent PC Warden, that in part due to the VO'd Shep, I didn't give a damn about Shep and most of the characters. So when I read how DA2 is adopting a similar voiced PC /cinematic approach, thats not instilling much excitement in me. I'll wait and see how the game plays out of course- my expectations can't be much lower-  but it really sucks to see alot of what I enjoyed in Origins tossed to the curb.

I wouldn't say those concerns are simply "blind rage," especially when the manner in which the game has largely been presented thus far is seemingly trying to show how different it is from Origins.

Do you see, though, that at this point the issue is just with a personal difference in terms of what people liked about Origins and what it was that made Origins the game it was?

For me, DA2 kept everything important in Origins, i.e. the core party-based gameplay, but then they revamped the artstyle to something I like a lot more. They made combat more aesthetically pleasing, in my view.

Best of all, they added PC VO, which is the thing that makes me care about a character, as opposed to the souless puppet that is the Warden, or Courier, or Bhalspawn.

So I think that there's a line we need to draw between criticism and creative difference.

[Mike Laidlaw]

Brockololly wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...
I personally appreciate the passion that DA: O evoked, and can sympathize with people's concerns over changes. But blind rage in the face of, what? More than half a dozen positive, and theoretically reassuring previews? That doesn't hold a lot of sway with me.

But surely not everyone with legitimate concerns is simply engaging in "blind rage"? Based on how ME handled the voiced PC, I know that compared to Origins and the Silent PC Warden, that in part due to the VO'd Shep, I didn't give a damn about Shep and most of the characters. So when I read how DA2 is adopting a similar voiced PC /cinematic approach, thats not instilling much excitement in me. I'll wait and see how the game plays out of course- my expectations can't be much lower-  but it really sucks to see alot of what I enjoyed in Origins tossed to the curb.

I wouldn't say those concerns are simply "blind rage," especially when the manner in which the game has largely been presented thus far is seemingly trying to show how different it is from Origins.

Legitimate concerns receive reasonable responses. People claiming that "the writer clearly had to brush their teeth after visiting bioware" do not. If I were interested in dismissing everything said in these forums, not only would I not post, I wouldn't even read.

And as to your concern about how things are different, I believe a number of people from Bioware, and I would expect a large amount of the previews recently posted, should have suggestes that a large number of things are the same. If that is not enough to salve your expectations, then I suspect only time will do so.

And I do not control time.

Yet.

[RifuloftheWest]

In Exile wrote...

Do you see, though, that at this point the issue is just with a personal difference in terms of what people liked about Origins and what it was that made Origins the game it was?

For me, DA2 kept everything important in Origins, i.e. the core party-based gameplay, but then they revamped the artstyle to something I like a lot more. They made combat more aesthetically pleasing, in my view.

Best of all, they added PC VO, which is the thing that makes me care about a character, as opposed to the souless puppet that is the Warden, or Courier, or Bhalspawn.

So I think that there's a line we need to draw between criticism and creative difference.

I'm a little fuzzy on that line. Are you suggesting that for a critique to be valid, it cannot be motivated by a subjective creative preference?

[In Exile]

RifuloftheWest wrote...
I'm a little fuzzy on that line. Are you suggesting that for a critique to be valid, it cannot be motivated by a subjective creative preference?

No. A valid critique can be directed solely at the creative element. I just don't think it has a purpose, at least re: feedback for a developer.

I don't think a debate over creative preference is really even coherent on a product that is past the creative development stage.

Here is the issue: there are two questions (at least IMO) in design. One is a creative question - it has to do with what one wants to design. The other is a competency question - it has to do with how well something was designed.

I think that at the level of this forum, what we ought to speak about it is the execution of a feature. Like the dialogue wheel. PC VO is in, but the form can and should be improved. That sort of competency feedback I think has value.

Creative feedback just amounts to saying ''I think this game should have been a different game.''

[Maria Caliban]

RifuloftheWest wrote...

I'm a little fuzzy on that line. Are you suggesting that for a critique to be valid, it cannot be motivated by a subjective creative preference?

Sure it can, but it needs more than personal preference if it's going to carry weight as a critique.

I like female warriors. The idea of warrior (tough, strong, physical) in a woman appeals to me. I hoped Cauthrean might be a companion and was disappointed when she wasn't. I expressed that disappointment on the board.

However, I never suggested that Dragon Age: Origins was less of a game for not catering to that specific interest. There's a difference between "Things Maria Likes" and "Things that BioWare should put in all its games."

It's the same with the rivalry system in DA II. I have this almost obsessive need to get companions to like me. If there's a measurement of like, I want it at 100%. I often create PCs who are willing to manipulate others if they find them useful simply so I can act this out without breaking character.

When I heard about the new friendship/rivalry system, I panicked. No loading my companions with gifts so they love and adore me? Please, say it isn't so!

After reading David and Mary's explanation of the system, I have to agree that it's better than what was in Origins. It doesn't make me happy, but a companion system built for Maria would be a pretty sh*tty system.

[Sylvius the Mad]

IRMcGhee wrote...

Never really understood the problem with the ME paraphrases, I had far, far more problems with misinterpreting the tone of DA:O PC dialogue choices (first time through the game).

Whereas, I'm wholly indifferent to the tone the writers intended in DAO, so any failure of the game to convey that tone makes no difference.

But I'm very sensitive to the literal content of a line, so any deviation from the literal content of the paraphrase was a game-breaking experience.  And that happened throughout.

I still think the paraphrase options should be written by someone unfamiliar with the rest of the conversation - simply a paraphrase of the exact line that follows.

In Exile wrote...

Do you see, though, that at this point the issue is just with a personal difference in terms of what people liked about Origins and what it was that made Origins the game it was?

For me, DA2 kept everything important in Origins, i.e. the core party-based gameplay, but then they revamped the artstyle to something I like a lot more. They made combat more aesthetically pleasing, in my view.

Best of all, they added PC VO, which is the thing that makes me care about a character, as opposed to the souless puppet that is the Warden, or Courier, or Bhalspawn.

So I think that there's a line we need to draw between criticism and creative difference.

When talking to the developers, that's probably true.  The developers have no reason to care what one community member's opinion is.  Not only is he just one guy, but as a community member he's not even likely to be representative of the broader population.

But I do think there's some value in using the forum here to move the margins of public opinion.  BioWare probably shouldn't pay my specific opinion any heed, but if I can move the median opinion in the broader population then I can move BioWare's target.

Marketing, in particular, can blind people to their own preferences.  It will focus on some detail which, all else being equal, people will like.  So if all else isn't equal, I'm going to point that out.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 23 décembre 2010 - 07:31 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

Here is the issue: there are two questions (at least IMO) in design. One is a creative question - it has to do with what one wants to design. The other is a competency question - it has to do with how well something was designed.

This is important, but to know that we often need to know what specific result BioWare was trying to produce.

Rather than guess, I often use a shotgun apprach where I point out all of the different gameplay consequences a given choice will have.  It sometimes comes across as a laundry list of complaints, but really it's a laundry list of possible complaints.

Creative feedback just amounts to saying ''I think this game should have been a different game.''

I think every RPG should be a different game for every player.

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
This is important, but to know that we often need to know what specific result BioWare was trying to produce.

No; we just need to qualify our answer. You do it this way all the time, saying ''If you want to have x (e.g. roleplaying freedom), you ought to do y.''

Rather than guess, I often use a shotgun apprach where I point out all of the different gameplay consequences a given choice will have.  It sometimes comes across as a laundry list of complaints, but really it's a laundry list of possible complaints.

I was talking about design elements, so this would be an issue of how to appropriately level scale, if one wanted to level scale at all.

I think every RPG should be a different game for every player.

Again, more at the design level, where we are talking about whether it ought to be an RPG at all, or what kind it should be.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

No; we just need to qualify our answer. You do it this way all the time, saying ''If you want to have x (e.g. roleplaying freedom), you ought to do y.''

With this, I agree entirely.

[Shady314]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...
More than half a dozen positive, and theoretically reassuring previews? That doesn't hold a lot of sway with me.

What are previews usually critical? Plenty of horrid games have had positive previews. Hell even positive reviews.
I'm supposed to be assured because previewers have expressed optimism. Give me a break.