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Reapers will Indoctrinate/Possess/Control Shepard in ME3 - Here's Why


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#1
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[For a tl;dr version, please read only the Yellow Text.]

I replayed the Overlord DLC a few days ago. Today I suddenly realized that BioWare has made it abundantly clear to us that in certain scenarios of ME3, Commander Shepard will be controlled/indoctrinated/possessed by the Reapers. Here are the facts that will support my point (contains spoiler of Overlord DLC):

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1. Reapers regularly take control of an organic with extensive cybernetic implants through these implants. Example: Harbinger possessing any Collector (Mordin tells you that all Collectors have extensive cybernetic implants); Sovereign controlling/possessing Saren through his implants (control is partial prior to the final battle). Note also that Saren is a powerful biotic and an individual of strong will and charisma - these qualities (which Shepard may share) didn't help him.

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2. Shepard has very extensive cybernetic implants. Just consider the scenes where Cerebrus rebuilt her/him.

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3. In Overlord DLC's final battle, Shepard was controlled by David, a much weaker AI than any Reaper, through Shepard's cybernetic implants. This is stated in the wikia, and also clear from the cutscene where Shepard's omnitool flashes green and Shepard's eyes (which we all know to be partly cybernetic - refer to Renegade eyes) glow with burning green. In fact the green eye glow on Shepard during this cutscene is remarkably similar to Saren's red eye glow when Sovereign finally possessed him, or the yellow eye glow when Harbinger possesses a Collector.

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4. Finally, why would BioWare let Cerebrus rebuild Shepard with cybernetics instead of any other means, other than to lay out this important plot point? They could have kidnapped some cutting edge Salarian scientist and rebuilt Shepard without cybernetic implants (Mordin could well be capable of that), or used some Asari biotic ritual to revive him/her (Asaris can use biotics to drain life [Samara] or mind control [Morinth] - neither is that far from reviving the dead). Cybernetic Shepard just echoes so strongly with Saren's and the Collectors' cybernetics. It also conforms to the tradition that every other Cerebrus project besides Lazarus had ended in disaster due to seemingly innocuous early decisions.

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To quote Commander Shepard's words on the Migrant Fleet, "I can't think of stronger evidence than that." Are the ME community prepared to render their judgment?

:wizard:

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FAQs [This section gets longer and longer]
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Q1: Why doesn't Harbinger assume direct control/hack Shepard in ME2?

A1: Hacking in the Mass Effect Universe requires physical proximity between the hacker and the hackee. Points to consider:

1. An Engineer/Tali/Legion can only hack a mech/geth once the target is within 40 meters.

2. The effect of indoctrination only happens when the victim has been physically around the source for some time. Rana Thanoptis explained this in ME1. The same info can be recovered from Cerebrus crew logs on the Derelict Reaper.

3. The way Harbinger controls a Collector is through the Collector General, which is always in close proximity to the Collector being possessed. The Collector General has been in existence since the beginning of the Collectors, designed as the Reapers' remote control on the Collectors. It cannot possess/control anything else besides a Collector.

4. All the Reapers, including Harbinger, are in Dark Space during the events of ME2. They are too far away to display their full hacking abilities and had to work through remote controls like the Collector General. They will arrive at our Galaxy in ME3, however.

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Q2: Cybernetic implants are not required for indoctrination/possession by Reapers.

A2: True. But it is pretty clear that cybernetic implants greatly help the Reapers to possess/control a subject:

1. They implanted Saren to better control him.

2. They implanted the Protheans, turning them into Collectors to better control them when initial indoctrination began to fail (Mordin's finding).

3. They are sentient machines, with a natural affinity to other machines/cybernetics.

4. Organics can resist the effect of indoctrination even when indotrination is very advanced and still in progress (Benezia, and possibly Saren, both did). AI's cannot. AI hacking is also a much more common ability than organic hacking. These imply that AI hacking is easier, and cybernetic implants make organic hacking easier.

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Q3: Why doesn't it work the other way around? Shepard may be able to hack the Reapers because of her/his cybernetic implants.

A3: Consider the odds. Reapers are far more advanced techologically than any galactic species. In the specific area of hacking, compare the following:

1. The best hackers we have (Tali, Legion, Engineer Shepard) can only hack one Geth platform for a few seconds at a time.

2. A single adapted Reaper virus (in Legion's Loyalty Mission) can hack all Geth permanently with one FTL energy pulse.

So who is more likely to be the hacker, and who is more likely to be the hackee here?

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P.S. Moderators, thank you for moving my thread! I'll post all topics containing spoilers in the ME2 quest/storyline sub-forum in the future.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 21 décembre 2010 - 10:03 .


#2
Googlesaurus

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If Shepard is indoctrinated in ME3, who are we going to play?

#3
Liec

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Spoilers in the No spoilers forum?

It's more likely than you think! :wizard:


Btw if that's the case why didn't harbinger assume direct control of Shepard in ME2?

If anything it's gonna be the other way around: Shepard's cyborgness will allow her to influence the Reapers, just like that connection allowed her to stop David from taking over the Normandy.

Modifié par Liec, 20 décembre 2010 - 10:00 .


#4
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Just once I wish people would hold proper definitions of "proof" and "speculation" ...

#5
charmingcharlie

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Liec wrote...

Spoilers in the No spoilers forum?

It's more likely than you think! :wizard:


Well to be fair he did make his post almost unreadable with that god awful blue text.

#6
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charmingcharlie wrote...

Liec wrote...

Spoilers in the No spoilers forum?

It's more likely than you think! :wizard:


Well to be fair he did make his post almost unreadable with that god awful blue text.


Changed to yellow text. Forgot the background on this forums is black. :unsure:

And where woud be a better place to post this? ME2 plot forum?

#7
Googlesaurus

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Also, the Reapers don't use cybernetic implants for indoctrination. They use quantum nanotechnology.

Theory debunked. :P

Modifié par Googlesaurus, 20 décembre 2010 - 10:00 .


#8
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Googlesaurus wrote...

If Shepard is indoctrinated in ME3, who are we going to play?


Temporarily indoctrinated only. He/she has to fight it, like in the Overlord DLC.

#9
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Googlesaurus wrote...

Also, the Reapers don't use cybernetic implants for indoctrination. They use quantum nanotechnology.

Theory debunked. :P


Better way to put is that Reaper's don't NEED cybernetic implants - but the implants would certainly make it easier! Remember the Reapers are powerful AI constructs with natural afinity to cybernetics. Also remember that Reapers implanted Saren with cybernetics to tighten their control over him - that is specifically stated in ME1 dialogues.

#10
desonnac00

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Actually, OP makes an excellent point- What if Shepard died in the suicide mission? (NOT a spoiler- It's in the trailers).

They could avoid having to do two different games (One with Shep and one with the other character- still not revealed).

It's a probable course of action.

#11
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desonnac00 wrote...

Actually, OP makes an excellent point- What if Shepard died in the suicide mission? (NOT a spoiler- It's in the trailers).
They could avoid having to do two different games (One with Shep and one with the other character- still not revealed).
It's a probable course of action.


Yes! If the Reaper's could reanimate Saren's corpse, they could do the same to Shepard's.

#12
Tasker

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It would certainly be interesting, if Bioware had us playing as the bad guy for a couple of missions.

Might agrivate a few fans though. ( But then, why should that stop them. :P )


Edit - And by bad guy, I mean indoctrinated Shepard against her own people.

Modifié par Orkboy, 20 décembre 2010 - 10:13 .


#13
Vigil11

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Damn it! I havent played overlord yet! No Problem I forgive you.

Now back on topic:



I don't think it will happen, I don't know.... who are we going to play??? maybe we play as tali/liara/ash to save our beloved shepard? Don't know, so many possibilities.

#14
Googlesaurus

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

Googlesaurus wrote...

Also, the Reapers don't use cybernetic implants for indoctrination. They use quantum nanotechnology.

Theory debunked. :P


Better way to put is that Reaper's don't NEED cybernetic implants - but the implants would certainly make it easier! Remember the Reapers are powerful AI constructs with natural afinity to cybernetics. Also remember that Reapers implanted Saren with cybernetics to tighten their control over him - that is specifically stated in ME1 dialogues.


I think Saren was drinking too much Reaper punch to realize that Sovereign was lying to him. The Reapers don't need anything to improve indoctrination for they can control it to whatever degree they want. The implants provide something more akin to possession than mind control. 

#15
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Vigil11 wrote...

Damn it! I havent played overlord yet! No Problem I forgive you.
Now back on topic:

I don't think it will happen, I don't know.... who are we going to play??? maybe we play as tali/liara/ash to save our beloved shepard? Don't know, so many possibilities.


Ah, sorry 'bout the spoilers! I just didn't think the topic fit into any other forums except "General Discussion". Maybe the mods will help me relocate the thread to another forum they see fit?

I'd LOVE to play as Tali/Liara/Ash/Garrus/Other LI to save Shepard! It will give us the chance to use their unique abilities from the first person, and direct the course of the romance from another point of view.

:o

#16
desonnac00

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It's also a good opportunity to explore alien culture and day to day life- what if we played as a turian, asari, krogan, quarian, drell or whatever to save shep? Or to kill him?

A lot of places to go from "You can play as someone other than Shepard"

#17
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Googlesaurus wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Googlesaurus wrote...

Also, the Reapers don't use cybernetic implants for indoctrination. They use quantum nanotechnology.

Theory debunked. :P


Better way to put is that Reaper's don't NEED cybernetic implants - but the implants would certainly make it easier! Remember the Reapers are powerful AI constructs with natural afinity to cybernetics. Also remember that Reapers implanted Saren with cybernetics to tighten their control over him - that is specifically stated in ME1 dialogues.


I think Saren was drinking too much Reaper punch to realize that Sovereign was lying to him. The Reapers don't need anything to improve indoctrination for they can control it to whatever degree they want. The implants provide something more akin to possession than mind control. 


Then call it possession, in that Shepard will be possessed instead of indoctrinated. Remember that indoctrination is not perfect - Saren, and especially Matriarch Benezia are able to resist it to certain extent - certainly more than the Reapers want. However, possession as you call it is complete control.

#18
Nuala

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I wouldn't be supprised if Shepard did actually have some type of control chip in her/his brain. Even after Miranda's disapproving rant it wouldn't be that much of a shock if TIM decided to just pop one in there anyway.

Would explain why I couldn't steal the Normandy and fly about without the akuze murderers.

Seriously though, I think hacked-shep could be possible. Maybe some 'Would you kindly not destroy the Reapers?' dialogue.

Modifié par Nuala, 20 décembre 2010 - 10:18 .


#19
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Orkboy wrote...

It would certainly be interesting, if Bioware had us playing as the bad guy for a couple of missions.

Might agrivate a few fans though. ( But then, why should that stop them. :P )


Edit - And by bad guy, I mean indoctrinated Shepard against her own people.


Yes! I guess that is one way the plot of ME can be diversified. Shepard is always a person with good intentions, good goals. Even Renegade Shepard works for the good of humanity, although her/his means are questionable. Compare that with KOTOR, where the Dark Side characters are downright evil, giving the player a more varied experience. A truly evil Shepard controlled by the Reapers would add so much to the plot variety, especially if evil Shepard kills his/her friend/crew/lover and later break free from the Reapers' control, filled with pain and regret.

:(

#20
Tasker

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

Orkboy wrote...

It would certainly be interesting, if Bioware had us playing as the bad guy for a couple of missions.

Might agrivate a few fans though. ( But then, why should that stop them. :P )


Edit - And by bad guy, I mean indoctrinated Shepard against her own people.


Yes! I guess that is one way the plot of ME can be diversified. Shepard is always a person with good intentions, good goals. Even Renegade Shepard works for the good of humanity, although her/his means are questionable. Compare that with KOTOR, where the Dark Side characters are downright evil, giving the player a more varied experience. A truly evil Shepard controlled by the Reapers would add so much to the plot variety, especially if evil Shepard kills his/her friend/crew/lover and later break free from the Reapers' control, filled with pain and regret.

:(


Exactly, It would be an evil twist if Shepard were forced into killing her love interest. ( Or random team mate if  there is no love interest. ). 

Or maybe killing Joker.

That could even be the act that breaks her out of their control and back onto the side of the good guys and out for genocidal vengeance.

#21
Zulu_DFA

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One reason only:

To reveal the whole truth about the Reapers (origins, motives, goals) to the player.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 20 décembre 2010 - 10:30 .


#22
Tamahome560

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No.

#23
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Nuala wrote...

I wouldn't be supprised if Shepard did actually have some type of control chip in her/his brain. Even after Miranda's disapproving rant it wouldn't be that much of a shock if TIM decided to just pop one in there anyway.

Would explain why I couldn't steal the Normandy and fly about without the akuze murderers.

Seriously though, I think hacked-shep could be possible. Maybe some 'Would you kindly not destroy the Reapers?' dialogue.


I think Cerebrus control chip is very unlikely - otherwise TIM would have used it to force Shepard to secure the Collector Base. I think Cerebrus's only blunder is that all those implants they built into Shepard just paved the way for Reaper control.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

One reason only:

To reveal the whole truth about the Reapers (origins, motives, goals) to the player.


Indeed. A Reaper-controlled Hack-shep may allow Shepard to sit down with the Reapers in a friendly atomsphere, and explore their bizzarre and terrifying culture from a closer standpoint. "Afternoon tea with Harbinger", hmmmm.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 20 décembre 2010 - 10:28 .


#24
b.clash_

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If your shepard dies in ME2 you can guarantee that shepard will be in ME3. This sounds like it doesn't make sense but it does because you can't import your save to ME3 if your shepard dies in the end of the 2nd. Logically, this would mean that you would be starting fresh to a new ME3 game and whatever Bioware has installed for carrying out the 3rd. Either way Shepard will be in ME3 whether you like it or not. The only factor is if it's Bioware's shepard or your imported Shepard

#25
Chala

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David just entered in shepards mind, but he didn't controlled him.