398 réponses à ce sujet

[Graunt]

Maria Caliban wrote...

From the Curse Interview: 

"So, if you took Bloodmage, Bloodmage represents the entire tree of potential abilities. When you start the game you have access to six trees of abilities, and then later on you get a specialization point at 7, and one at 14, that lets you unlock higher level specialties. For a mage it's spirit healer, blood magic, and force mage." 

Oh dear, my favorite spec -- gone!

Thank god, and I say that with all sincerity.  My first character was an AW/BM and I felt like I was soloing the game -- which I mostly was.  It also ruined pretty much every subsequent playthrough with a Mage, especially when using the Advanced Party mod (you could say using mods is not how the developer envisioned the game being played, which is fair, but it just emphasizes my point about that class/combo).  

You would always make one of two (three in Awakening) specializations for all Mages AW, even if it was only for Fade Shroud.  It was clear that either that single spec was blatantly imbalanced or that every other spec was simply poor.  Right now in Awakening I have Anders with AW as one of his specializations and not only does he never die, he almost never runs out of mana -- with Combat Magic, Rock Armor, Miasma and Arcane Shield up and with 26% fatigue.  He's my group healer/debuffer and can also melee -- kind of like a Cleric.

It is a bit disconcerting that there's only three specs to choose from now, but maybe that will be ok if you have more than four new spells to choose from.  As it stands, there was really only AW, SH, BM in Origins anyway.  Everyone knows how awful Shapeshifter was.  Rogues only had three "optimal" choices too and to a lesser extent Warriors.  The only real reason to pick Reaver was for Frightening Appearance and only if you didn't want your tank as the mostly superior Templar/Champ combo.

Modifié par Graunt, 24 décembre 2010 - 09:57 .

[Winter Wraith]

I haven't managed to finish a game as an Arcane Warrior. I like the idea of something different to do with a mage but they are amazingly boring to actually play.

Modifié par Winter Wraith, 25 décembre 2010 - 06:57 .

[Kangaxx628]

I'm still confused about people griping about lack of balance. It was and is a single player game, no one came to your house and forced you to play an AW if you selected mage. The main complaint is both the perceived lack of a hybrid mage (force mage may change this) and the dumbing down/removal of options in the sequel(it is a known quantity, there is little risk expanding the options of play styles). And if I choose to play a living god capable of mowing down all in my path how does that affect your game? So let us raise a glass to those we've lost, two weapon warriors, arcane warriors, keepers, rangers, and wait for the Bioware apologists to explain abusing hide in plain sight or whatever OP little trick rogues will receive(hopefully an orange jumpsuit, believe it!)

[Piecake]

Kangaxx628 wrote...

I'm still confused about people griping about lack of balance. It was and is a single player game, no one came to your house and forced you to play an AW if you selected mage. The main complaint is both the perceived lack of a hybrid mage (force mage may change this) and the dumbing down/removal of options in the sequel(it is a known quantity, there is little risk expanding the options of play styles). And if I choose to play a living god capable of mowing down all in my path how does that affect your game? So let us raise a glass to those we've lost, two weapon warriors, arcane warriors, keepers, rangers, and wait for the Bioware apologists to explain abusing hide in plain sight or whatever OP little trick rogues will receive(hopefully an orange jumpsuit, believe it!)

Perhaps you are just thinking of class balance.  Difficulty affects everyone, even if we don't choose to play overpowered specs.  I'd imagine that its quite hard to balance difficulty when the effectiveness of specs varies so much

[IRMcGhee]

Even a single-player game needs balance, overpowered characters make the gameplay pretty boring (a common complaint about the latter parts of Awakenings). I've only ever gone for a AW PC once, and abandoned the game halfway through (only time I've ever done so) because it wasn't any fun. Not that I think there's anything wrong with playing that way if you want to.



It's already been said that the AW class was only available through a particular event and is extremely, extremely rare in the Dragon Age world. That's enough reason to justify not having it DA2 alone.



The new ability of the mage to fight in CC with their staves could make AWs redundant anyway, while still retaining balance. Depending what they've done with combat skills and defensive spells, all mages might be able to be built for CC to a lesser or greater degree depending on your preferences.

[Skilled Seeker]

In its current form it is severly overpowered. And we dont know what force mage is.

[Graunt]

Winter Wraith wrote...

I've haven't managed to finish a game as an Arcane Warrior. I like the idea of something different to do with a mage but they are amazingly boring to actually play.

They are a snoozefest to play, but only because you're either just doing whack, whack, whack either tanking or as melee damage after the obligatory Blood Control.  It gets worse if you want to actually use any real spells, especially for threat other than Miasma or Prison because you have to constantly put your group on hold, and you're always having to micromanage each sustainable like mad.  The class is intrinsically boring, but that doesn't make it any less broken.  You also don't even have to play the AW side of the spec to even have a reason to take the spec in the first place which is why it's so strong.

Kangaxx628 wrote...

I'm still confused about people
griping about lack of balance. It was and is a single player game, no
one came to your house and forced you to play an AW if you selected
mage. The main complaint is both the perceived lack of a hybrid mage
(force mage may change this) and the dumbing down/removal of options in
the sequel(it is a known quantity, there is little risk expanding the
options of play styles). And if I choose to play a living god capable of
mowing down all in my path how does that affect your game? So let us
raise a glass to those we've lost, two weapon warriors, arcane warriors,
keepers, rangers, and wait for the Bioware apologists to explain
abusing hide in plain sight or whatever OP little trick rogues will
receive(hopefully an orange jumpsuit, believe it!)

I don't understand why this same cliched argument keeps popping up.  It's like it's completely unfathomable that someone actually wants the classes close to being "balanced" so that it doesn't seem like there's always only "one obvious choice" or you're lowering your standards just for RP purposes.  It's dumb to have one character that's as strong as a rocket launcher and then another who is a slingshot.  Do you have to pick the rocket launcher?  No, but there should never have been such a skew like that in the first place.  That's really poor design and kills replay value.

In its current form it is severly overpowered. And we dont know what force mage is.

The precursors to biotics, duh.

Modifié par Graunt, 25 décembre 2010 - 01:08 .

[In Exile]

I always dislike arcane warrior because to me, it seemed like an obvious bone to the rampant demands for a melee caster class that plagued DA:O ever since the class system was announced.

[Graunt]

In Exile wrote...

I always dislike arcane warrior because to me, it seemed like an obvious bone to the rampant demands for a melee caster class that plagued DA:O ever since the class system was announced.

I always enjoyed the hybrid/spellsword styles such as a Kensai or Warlock as opposed to the ranger style or giant bomb dropping caster, but the AW could be anything and everything at the same time.

[Ziggeh]

Kangaxx628 wrote...

I'm still confused about people griping about lack of balance. It was and is a single player game, no one came to your house and forced you to play an AW if you selected mage.

Perhaps we should clarify what I'm "griping" about, as "balance" is applied to several seperate elements that effect the game. From that second sentence I do believe you're using the same sense as I am.  Not refering to the power one your character as it compares to mine, as would be a problem in an mmo, but as in relative power compared to other classes, which is a problem for balancing the consistency of difficulty settings.

Kangaxx628 wrote...
The main complaint is both the perceived lack of a hybrid mage (force mage may change this) and the dumbing down/removal of options in the sequel(it is a known quantity, there is little risk expanding the options of play styles).

'Shorts put it well in another thread: because you don't place any value in the result, all you see is the price tag rather than the trade; Obviously unsettling.

What you call "dumbing down", I call problem solving. I concur that if a game is roughly flawless one should expect a sequel to be more of the same with extra knobs, but I image with games as complex and divisive as this, flawless is something that never happens. It certainly didn't with Origins. So what we should expect instead is resolved problems and possibly an extra know or two. And this seems to be what we're getting. So, hurray.

Kangaxx628 wrote...
And if I choose to play a living god capable of mowing down all in my path how does that affect your game?

Ultimately, it doesn't. In DA:O I basically ignored AW, as I would have done if they had handed my warden an assualt rifle and indeed as I do typing "runscript pc_immortal" into the console.

But as professional developers, who have made numerous strides, and yes, concessions to reign in and resolve the difficulty and inter-class balance issues that the previous game held, I really rather doubt they'll be convinced by the argument that suggests that they don't really need to "finish" certain content. That it would be ok to knowingly include broken settings, that fell outside of the lengthy, tedious process of QA and rebalancing.

[Graunt]

Knight Angel wrote...

I'm a little sad that AW is gone............but I am interested in what Force Mage is...........

how.........if only they could reveal the Warrior specs............

I'll eat my shoes if the Spirit Warrior is back.  Most likely going to see something like Guardian again, even though that was a terrible spec all around (certainly has potential to be good though) and one that probably tries to combine Berserker and Champion in some way...something like "Barbarian" or "Battlerager".

Modifié par Graunt, 25 décembre 2010 - 02:45 .

[In Exile]

Graunt wrote...
I always enjoyed the hybrid/spellsword styles such as a Kensai or Warlock as opposed to the ranger style or giant bomb dropping caster, but the AW could be anything and everything at the same time.

I have an unparalled dislike for the aesthetic of spellcasting and melee in western fantasy. The combination of the two is about the least interesting and most dissonant possible combination, at least for me.

[AlanC9]

Ziggeh wrote...

Kangaxx628 wrote...
And if I choose to play a living god capable of mowing down all in my path how does that affect your game?

Ultimately, it doesn't. In DA:O I basically ignored AW, as I would have done if they had handed my warden an assualt rifle and indeed as I do typing "runscript pc_immortal" into the console.

Well, it does affect your game in the sense that every minute of dev time spent implementing AW is time that isn't going to be used to implement something useful.

Bio's got an interest in not having reviewers make fun of their incompetence,  so in general they want to avoid having too many things like AW. But they can get away with some overpowered stuff as long as it's obscure -- most reviewers have to file before really mastering the game.

[Kangaxx628]

Ziggeh wrote...

What you call "dumbing down", I call problem solving. I concur that if a game is roughly flawless one should expect a sequel to be more of the same with extra knobs, but I image with games as complex and divisive as this, flawless is something that never happens. It certainly didn't with Origins. So what we should expect instead is resolved problems and possibly an extra know or two. And this seems to be what we're getting. So, hurray.

But as professional developers, who have made numerous strides, and yes, concessions to reign in and resolve the difficulty and inter-class balance issues that the previous game held, I really rather doubt they'll be convinced by the argument that suggests that they don't really need to "finish" certain content. That it would be ok to knowingly include broken settings, that fell outside of the lengthy, tedious process of QA and rebalancing.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree vis-a-vis the AW as a problem, or the ranger or the dual weapon warrior or the keeper. As for interclass balance, if they kept shatter-shot as an auto-hit cascading stun, well broken settings indeed.

[AlanC9]

 Actually, I gave away too much to Kangaxx628 there. I do have an interest in keeping overpowered abilities out of the game, beyond keeping Bio from wasting time on making them. What if I take an overpowered ability before I really understand the system? If I do that the current playthrough is wrecked -- difficulty will be toast, and as an RP matter I can't justify my character not using powerful abilities if he has them. I can still override RP in the interest of gameplay, but this will be an annoyance every time I have to do it.

[Graunt]

In Exile wrote...

Graunt wrote...
I always enjoyed the hybrid/spellsword styles such as a Kensai or Warlock as opposed to the ranger style or giant bomb dropping caster, but the AW could be anything and everything at the same time.

I have an unparalled dislike for the aesthetic of spellcasting and melee in western fantasy. The combination of the two is about the least interesting and most dissonant possible combination, at least for me.

The Kensai was basically just "one with their sword" and ran around without armor, gaining an increase in speed and durability as they progressed.  Normally most of the "spells" they used were illusions or self enhancing, not projectiles or conjurations.  They were essentially the medieval fantasy version of a Jedi, or something like the main character in the Shinobi games.  I fail to see how mastering both the mind and body as being "dissonant" as well.

AlanC9 wrote...

 Actually, I gave away too much to Kangaxx628 there. I do
have an interest in keeping overpowered abilities out of the game,
beyond keeping Bio from wasting time on making them. What if I take an
overpowered ability before I really understand the system? If I do that
the current playthrough is wrecked -- difficulty will be toast, and as
an RP matter I can't justify my character not using powerful abilities
if he has them. I can still override RP in the interest of gameplay, but
this will be an annoyance every time I have to do it.

This is exactly why I ended up disliking the AW so much.  It ruined my first experience for me and then the subsequent were even worse because of that.  I thought my first playthrough was on "Normal", but that's wrong, it was on "Hard" and it was too easy.  Everything beyond had been on Nightmare, but even that is pretty easy for most builds, but it's an utter joke for the AW.  I like experimenting and I like being challenged.  I don't like running around with training wheels on simply because I picked what I thought would be neat to try out.  I don't like feeling like I'm either being punished for the choice I didn't make, or given a free ride by mistake.  Both options are no good.

Modifié par Graunt, 25 décembre 2010 - 04:10 .

[Ziggeh]

Kangaxx628 wrote...
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree vis-a-vis the AW as a problem

Hmm. I'm not sure I'd be willing to agree to that.

But I'd be happy to agree to disagree that the problems removing it solved would be worth the cost of not having it available, I've learnt that many believe that choice is more important than functionality.

[Aermas]

Ziggeh wrote...

Kangaxx628 wrote...
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree vis-a-vis the AW as a problem

Hmm. I'm not sure I'd be willing to agree to that.

But I'd be happy to agree to disagree that the problems removing it solved would be worth the cost of not having it available, I've learnt that many believe that choice is more important than functionality.

So you disagree about agreeing to disagree? Would it be agreeable to agree that you are disagreeable?

Modifié par Aermas, 25 décembre 2010 - 06:13 .

[In Exile]

Graunt wrote...

The Kensai was basically just "one with their sword" and ran around without armor, gaining an increase in speed and durability as they progressed.  Normally most of the "spells" they used were illusions or self enhancing, not projectiles or conjurations.  They were essentially the medieval fantasy version of a Jedi, or something like the main character in the Shinobi games.  I fail to see how mastering both the mind and body as being "dissonant" as well

What I meant was that the aesthetic of it sucks.

Western fantasy RPGs (the computer games, at least) try for a realistic take on melee (unlike DA2, actually). No acrobatis, no massive ground shattering leaps or shows of skill or whatever.

Magic is a stationary chant that involves altering physical reality in some way.

It just doesn't make for exciting combat, and the stationary yelling, to me, does not jive well with the quasi-realistic melee.

I have no idea what a Kensai is, but I'm not a D&D or PnP fan, so if it's a particular class of that I'm going to have to blead ignorance.

[Graunt]

In Exile wrote...

Graunt wrote...

The Kensai was basically just "one with their sword" and ran around without armor, gaining an increase in speed and durability as they progressed.  Normally most of the "spells" they used were illusions or self enhancing, not projectiles or conjurations.  They were essentially the medieval fantasy version of a Jedi, or something like the main character in the Shinobi games.  I fail to see how mastering both the mind and body as being "dissonant" as well

What I meant was that the aesthetic of it sucks.

Western fantasy RPGs (the computer games, at least) try for a realistic take on melee (unlike DA2, actually). No acrobatis, no massive ground shattering leaps or shows of skill or whatever.

Magic is a stationary chant that involves altering physical reality in some way.

It just doesn't make for exciting combat, and the stationary yelling, to me, does not jive well with the quasi-realistic melee.

I have no idea what a Kensai is, but I'm not a D&D or PnP fan, so if it's a particular class of that I'm going to have to blead ignorance.

Come to think of it, Kensai generally don't typically ever cast any "spells" anyway, they are usually just multi-classed with a Mage for a few levels to get those couple of combat enhancing abilities that just
allows them to do what they do better.  The literal translation for Kensai (Kensei) is "Sword's Saint" which was changed to "Sword Saint" for the PnP games.

I think by your description of what you find as being silly, you might actually think the Kensai/Mage is not so much silly since most of their spells are cast pre-battle, or they may have a single quick spell temporarily stored or even precast to activate later.  They aren't jumping around doing Matrix/Manga style attacks while shooting fireballs off of their two flaming weapons or anything dumb like that. 

The hyper exaggeration of DA2 appears to be aiming for the Final Fantasy crowd.  I don't really mind it too much, but it is kind of a bummer since Bioware was literally the last bastion of traditional Western RPGs.  It's nice to actually have...variety.

Modifié par Graunt, 25 décembre 2010 - 10:18 .

[Maria Caliban]

Graunt wrote...

In Exile wrote...

I have an unparalled dislike for the aesthetic of spellcasting and melee in western fantasy. The combination of the two is about the least interesting and most dissonant possible combination, at least for me.

The Kensai was basically just "one with their sword" and ran around without armor, gaining an increase in speed and durability as they progressed.  Normally most of the "spells" they used were illusions or self enhancing, not projectiles or conjurations.  They were essentially the medieval fantasy version of a Jedi, or something like the main character in the Shinobi games.  I fail to see how mastering both the mind and body as being "dissonant" as well.

In Exile doesn't like western fantasy mixes of magic and melee. The Kensai wasn't western fantasy; it's eastern fantasy. That's why they gave it the Japanese name. The same with the monk class in Neverwinter Night obviously being inspired by eastern culture.

[nightcobra]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Graunt wrote...

In Exile wrote...

I have an unparalled dislike for the aesthetic of spellcasting and melee in western fantasy. The combination of the two is about the least interesting and most dissonant possible combination, at least for me.

The Kensai was basically just "one with their sword" and ran around without armor, gaining an increase in speed and durability as they progressed.  Normally most of the "spells" they used were illusions or self enhancing, not projectiles or conjurations.  They were essentially the medieval fantasy version of a Jedi, or something like the main character in the Shinobi games.  I fail to see how mastering both the mind and body as being "dissonant" as well.

In Exile doesn't like western fantasy mixes of magic and melee. The Kensai wasn't western fantasy; it's eastern fantasy. That's why they gave it the Japanese name. The same with the monk class in Neverwinter Night obviously being inspired by eastern culture.

speaking for myself, i love mixes of western and eastern styles when it comes to visuals, music, gameplay, pretty much everything XD and i'm hoping to see some in Dragon Age 2 

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 25 décembre 2010 - 10:33 .

[Aermas]

Kensai augment their chosen weapon with zen-like focus... what's this talk of spellcasting? Are you talking about a different game (than D&D)?

[DKJaigen]

Graunt wrote...

In Exile wrote...

I always dislike arcane warrior because to me, it seemed like an obvious bone to the rampant demands for a melee caster class that plagued DA:O ever since the class system was announced.

I always enjoyed the hybrid/spellsword styles such as a Kensai or Warlock as opposed to the ranger style or giant bomb dropping caster, but the AW could be anything and everything at the same time.

no they didn't. the only thing AW excelled was armor and good defense which is exactly was it meant to do. warrior survivability and  melee(and damage) output was still higher in many cases .

unless you build your warrior or rogue very badly i hardly see any evidence that the AW was any more op then a warrior or rogue. what i do know is that warriors and rogues had to wait a bit longer before they had aces to their good stuff compared to the AW.