398 réponses à ce sujet

[Dune01]

I hear a lot about Force Mage= Jedi

I have only one question...What are Jedi?

[nightcobra]

Dune01 wrote...

I hear a lot about Force Mage= Jedi
I have only one question...What are Jedi?

....

[Ortaya Alevli]

Dune01 wrote...

I hear a lot about Force Mage= Jedi
I have only one question...What are Jedi?

Project JEDI is an Open Source project, created it 1997, which started with the goal to translate C headers to Delphi and share the results with fellow Delphi programmers. The name decided on was Project JEDI (the "Joint Endeavour of Delphi Innovators"). Over time it evolved to include other aspects of Delphi programming, for example JCL (JEDI Code Library), JVCL (JEDI VCL), and others.

(Source: Wikipedia)

Modifié par Ortaya Alevli, 25 décembre 2010 - 03:35 .

[Dune01]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Dune01 wrote...

I hear a lot about Force Mage= Jedi
I have only one question...What are Jedi?

Project JEDI is an Open Source project, created it 1997, which started with the goal to translate C headers to Delphi and share the results with fellow Delphi programmers. The name decided on was Project JEDI (the "Joint Endeavour of Delphi Innovators"). Over time it evolved to include other aspects of Delphi programming, for example JCL (JEDI Code Library), JVCL (JEDI VCL), and others.

(Source: Wikipedia)

Niiiiiice.....never heard about that :happy:

[Graunt]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Graunt wrote...

In Exile wrote...

I have an unparalled dislike for the aesthetic of spellcasting and melee in western fantasy. The combination of the two is about the least interesting and most dissonant possible combination, at least for me.

The Kensai was basically just "one with their sword" and ran around without armor, gaining an increase in speed and durability as they progressed.  Normally most of the "spells" they used were illusions or self enhancing, not projectiles or conjurations.  They were essentially the medieval fantasy version of a Jedi, or something like the main character in the Shinobi games.  I fail to see how mastering both the mind and body as being "dissonant" as well.

In Exile doesn't like western fantasy mixes of magic and melee. The Kensai wasn't western fantasy; it's eastern fantasy. That's why they gave it the Japanese name. The same with the monk class in Neverwinter Night obviously being inspired by eastern culture.

That's not what I read out of it at all.  What I get is that he doesn't like it when they try to incorporate the flashy spellcasting while at the same time engaging in high-flying/unrealistic looking melee combat.  That's all Eastern, not typical Western.  I don't see him not liking the idea of melee and spellcasting, simply the way it's being handled in DA2 over how it's traditionally done in Western games.  

And it also doesn't really matter where the origin of the Kensai is, it was being used as a reference for the kind of "spellsword" (which it only is if you multi-class it that way...which is kind of standard) that isn't so ultra unrealistic in an RPG and the kind I prefer.  Besides, they didn't actually give it the correct Japanese name, it was slightly altered.

In Exile wrote...

What I meant was that the aesthetic of it sucks.

Western fantasy
RPGs (the computer games, at least) try for a realistic take on melee
(unlike DA2, actually). No acrobatis, no massive ground shattering leaps
or shows of skill or whatever.

Magic is a stationary chant that involves altering physical reality in some way.

It just doesn't make for exciting combat, and the stationary yelling, to me, does not jive well with the quasi-realistic melee.

Kensai augment their chosen weapon with zen-like focus... what's this
talk of spellcasting? Are you talking about a different game (than
D&D)?

No, re-read what I wrote, I later said that they don't actually cast anything -- it's the Kensai/Mage that does and that's almost always the way they are played compared to just being a "pure" Kensai.  I may have actually just been confusing the Bladesinger with the Kensai too.  They are both so similar, but the modern Bladesinger is the one who naturally learns spells.

I haven't played PnP for around ten years, and didn't delve too deep into those specific classes in NWN or NWN2 so I don't know if they were the same, but they look quite a bit different from how I remember them. TSR/Wizards of the Coast seem to enjoy chaning the rules quite often, so maybe they did it again since I last played.  I always remembered the Bladesinger as being one of the few "pure" melee oriented classes that were more like a cross between a Monk (for armor bonuses and penalties) and the Kensai for the weapon focus.  The main difference being their chant, but I don't remember them ever casting any "spells".

http://www.wizards.c...nd/prc/20070403

That to me is more like a Fighter/Mage/Bard.

Sword and Spell
A bladesinger is never going to compete with a single-classed wizard
or sorcerer in terms of damage output or raw power (and they shouldn't
try). Rather, a bladesinger should use his spells to augment his own
combat abilities. Any spell that increases armor class or ability to hit
and deal damage is useful to a bladesinger.

If you read the racial requirement as well, it seems like the Kensai/Mage is almost the same thing as the Bladesinger, but only with different requirements.  No wonder I confused them.  Anyway, the point of this wall of text is that you can have the spellsword type character that's actually fun and isn't anywhere near as imbalanced as the AW was -- and that's how I like em.

Modifié par Graunt, 25 décembre 2010 - 08:59 .

[Graunt]

DKJaigen wrote...

Graunt wrote...

In Exile wrote...

I always dislike arcane warrior because to me, it seemed like an obvious bone to the rampant demands for a melee caster class that plagued DA:O ever since the class system was announced.

I always enjoyed the hybrid/spellsword styles such as a Kensai or Warlock as opposed to the ranger style or giant bomb dropping caster, but the AW could be anything and everything at the same time.

no they didn't. the only thing AW excelled was armor and good defense which is exactly was it meant to do. warrior survivability and  melee(and damage) output was still higher in many cases .

unless you build your warrior or rogue very badly i hardly see any evidence that the AW was any more op then a warrior or rogue. what i do know is that warriors and rogues had to wait a bit longer before they had aces to their good stuff compared to the AW.

You're missing the point.  The AW had the highest survivability in the entire game.  No, the Warrior did not have higher under any circumstance unless you "build your AW very badly".  The AW had issues with threat and actual melee damage if you were using them as just a "tank" with a shield, but if you simply ignored the shield and went DW while raising your dex a little you could hold threat well enough with auto attack and Miasma alone.  

On top of that, no Warrior or Rogue can cast a Fireball, Blood Control or any other number of "room wiping" abilities from a distance before the fight has even begun.  Did the Rogue out damage them single target?  Yes, but so what when that only mattered on bosses and 90% of the game revolved around swarms?  The AW had better range combat than anyone (the Mage class in general...), obviously had way better healing and crowd control than the other two classes and definitely had way better survivability by default, unless you spent way too long running around collecting enough pieces of armor to have a specific "tanking" set for every scenario for your Warrior.

You're right about the AW coming into form much earlier, but by the time the Warrior/Rogue can actually compete Origins is practically over and it doesn't even matter.  Awakening changed things up quite a bit and it was definitely no longer as black and white (Archery Rogue > Spirit Warrior >> Mage in terms of damage), but the only thing that happened is that the other two classes came closer to being in line with Mages.  But then you have to consider that the Mage can still heal and use CC on top of getting some even better AE abilities.

Modifié par Graunt, 25 décembre 2010 - 09:13 .

[Ortaya Alevli]

Man, there's ToB. Why bother with Kensai/Mage when you can go Kensai/Thief with Use Any Item? Now that's the definition of awesome.

Anyway, forget dual/multiclassing, there are always rangers and paladins who both swing a mean sword and cast divine spells.

[tonnactus]

The melee damage of an arcane warrior,at least mine,was over 100 per swing by the end of origins...
And thats with a onehanded longsword.
Not even considering spells that i could use with Blood Magic.
The arcane warrior got the best surviability(there is no other class that doesnt have to worry about getting grabbed/mauled multiple times even on nightmare), decent melee damage and even healing and supporting with misama and the basic heal/regeneration spells.
The arcane warrior is the best and most versatile class in Origins for sure.

Modifié par tonnactus, 25 décembre 2010 - 10:49 .

[tonnactus]

Inzhuna wrote...

It makes sense lore-wise. Warden only found it by chance, in the ancient ruins;.

It doesnt make any sense,because there were other arcane warriors in the game.Like in the unofficial provings in Orzammar. One in the ruined temple.Even the disciples in Awakening were mage/fighter hybrids.

[Graunt]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Man, there's ToB. Why bother with Kensai/Mage when you can go Kensai/Thief with Use Any Item? Now that's the definition of awesome.
Anyway, forget dual/multiclassing, there are always rangers and paladins who both swing a mean sword and cast divine spells.

Aren't they pretty much "hybrids" by default though?  It's not exactly the same, but isn't a Paladin just similar to a Cleric/Fighter?  I also thought those types of classes took longer to level as well by virtue of their abilities?  A bit off topic, but man...when I first played BG2 it was pretty disgusting.  I picked a Paladin just to use the Holy Avenger...

[Ortaya Alevli]

Graunt wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Man, there's ToB. Why bother with Kensai/Mage when you can go Kensai/Thief with Use Any Item? Now that's the definition of awesome.
Anyway, forget dual/multiclassing, there are always rangers and paladins who both swing a mean sword and cast divine spells.

Aren't they pretty much "hybrids" by default though?  It's not exactly the same, but isn't a Paladin just similar to a Cleric/Fighter?  I also thought those types of classes took longer to level as well by virtue of their abilities?  A bit off topic, but man...when I first played BG2 it was pretty disgusting.  I picked a Paladin just to use the Holy Avenger...

They could be called "hybrids", but that has more to do with balance. A character who could fight as good as a regular fighter and cast as good as a regular cleric/druid would be simply unfair. That's the dominant mentality in fantasy settings, true. A master wizard should suck at arms so that there is merit to fighters, and a master swordsman should suck at sorcery so that there is reason to play a wizard. But still, paladins and rangers are there, and they have their place in the lore. Nobody in Faerun walks up to a paladin and says, "hey dude, you're like a lovechild of a cleric and a fighter, nothing special about you." Their special roles are well-documented.

From a practical standpoint, this is one of the features I loved in The Witcher. Azar Javed, an accomplished mage by all accounts, is just as competent in melee combat. In fact, his blade hurts Geralt more than his spells do. Even better, there's the final boss, who's apparently an even more powerful wizard than Javed, and he's also the toughest swordsman Geralt fights in the game. Sword and sorcery are by no means considered mutually exclusive in that setting. And it flows perfectly; never does the player pause for a moment and speak to themselves, "bah, this guy is adept at both brawling and spellcasting, this is retarded."

Well, there's Triss, too. But I wouldn't expect her to take up arms even if she had no spellcasting ability whatsoever.

[Kangaxx628]

Graunt wrote...


On top of that, no Warrior or Rogue can cast a Fireball, Blood Control or any other number of "room wiping" abilities from a distance before the fight has even begun.  Did the Rogue out damage them single target?  Yes, but so what when that only mattered on bosses and 90% of the game revolved around swarms?  The AW had better range combat than anyone (the Mage class in general...), obviously had way better healing and crowd control than the other two classes and definitely had way better survivability by default, unless you spent way too long running around collecting enough pieces of armor to have a specific "tanking" set for every scenario for your Warrior.

You're right about the AW coming into form much earlier, but by the time the Warrior/Rogue can actually compete Origins is practically over and it doesn't even matter.  Awakening changed things up quite a bit and it was definitely no longer as black and white (Archery Rogue > Spirit Warrior >> Mage in terms of damage), but the only thing that happened is that the other two classes came closer to being in line with Mages.  But then you have to consider that the Mage can still heal and use CC on top of getting some even better AE abilities.

Room wiping, there's scatter shot the auto hit auto stun no friendly fire archery talent. Never seen anybody resist dirty fighting have seen mind blast be ignored. So if DA2's focus is making rogues more acrobatic I hope I can wear an orange jumpsuit, believe it!

[IRMcGhee]

Scatter shot doesn't do much damage comparitively (except in encounters where you have a bunch of 1-hit, 1-kill mooks) and has a pretty short duration, and Dirty Fighting only affects a single enemy. Mages can throw Mass Paralysis then up to three area effect persistent damage spells.

[IRMcGhee]

It's pretty nasty if multiple enemies use it in sequence, but I was really just responding to the Rogue vs AW room-clearing statement in the post before mine.

[Aermas]

Dune01 wrote...

I hear a lot about Force Mage= Jedi
I have only one question...What are Jedi?

There is a movie trilogy named StarWars, google it, you'll learn all you need & more.

[DKJaigen]

IRMcGhee wrote...

It's pretty nasty if multiple enemies use it in sequence, but I was really just responding to the Rogue vs AW room-clearing statement in the post before mine.

killing large amount of white mobs has always been the mage specialty not just the AW specialty. rogues and warriors however do significant more damage against single targets. but they also you kill whole herds of mobs of with sweep ww and low strike

Modifié par DKJaigen, 26 décembre 2010 - 10:23 .

[In Exile]

Graunt wrote...
That's not what I read out of it at all.  What I get is that he doesn't like it when they try to incorporate the flashy spellcasting while at the same time engaging in high-flying/unrealistic looking melee combat.  That's all Eastern, not typical Western.  I don't see him not liking the idea of melee and spellcasting, simply the way it's being handled in DA2 over how it's traditionally done in Western games. 

No, that's the opposite of what I want to say.

The high-flying unrealistic melee combat + magic I'm fine with. It's when you have the faux realistic slashing and bashing that you have in DA:O along with magic, that's what I find dissonant and unappealing.

And it also doesn't really matter where the origin of the Kensai is, it was being used as a reference for the kind of "spellsword" (which it only is if you multi-class it that way...which is kind of standard) that isn't so ultra unrealistic in an RPG and the kind I prefer.  Besides, they didn't actually give it the correct Japanese name, it was slightly altered.

I don't know what a spellsword is, really.

No, re-read what I wrote, I later said that they don't actually cast anything -- it's the Kensai/Mage that does and that's almost always the way they are played compared to just being a "pure" Kensai.  I may have actually just been confusing the Bladesinger with the Kensai too.  They are both so similar, but the modern Bladesinger is the one who naturally learns spells.

You're not helping with the analogies you're using. I'm very ignorant of D&D.

[Aermas]

The Kensai in D&D is just a warrior that is just really really dedicated to one sword.

[Kangaxx628]

Aermas wrote...

The Kensai in D&D is just a warrior that is just really really dedicated to one sword.

Oh it was more than that atleast in BGII. The Kensai was a warrior who didn't wear armor except bracers and boots thus it was a natural hybrid/dual class w/ the mage or sorc since there were serious penalties for casting arcane spells in armor. And while the AW was a beast there were plenty of other chainable feats/skills that rogues and warriors could use. But everybody rags on the AW since it was the closest thing to the CODzilla only more awesome.

[Harid]

Pretty good that it is gone, given the fact that trying to balance the game against it would make the game too difficult for the majority of the people who play the game, but I dunno, unless they drastically changed mage gameplay I won't be playing a mage.



And there is no point in letting Mages sweep up white mobs and let Warriors/rogues kill Elite better when there are like. . .less than 25 elite mobs in Origins. It ends up creating the problem that Origins had, Mages were better than everything else.



It's not like it matters though, there is no point in origins where you need the enhanced killing speed. You aren't timed at anything.

[Ortaya Alevli]

Kangaxx628 wrote...

Aermas wrote...

The Kensai in D&D is just a warrior that is just really really dedicated to one sword.

Oh it was more than that atleast in BGII. The Kensai was a warrior who didn't wear armor except bracers and boots thus it was a natural hybrid/dual class w/ the mage or sorc since there were serious penalties for casting arcane spells in armor.

Kensai in BG2 can't wear bracers (EDIT: or gloves or helmets), either. They receive natural AC bonuses instead.

And there's no armor penalty for arcane spells in BG2. Single class mages and sorcerers cannot wear armor at all, and if they do wear armor by virtue of dual/multiclassing, they lose their ability to cast spells altogether.

Modifié par Ortaya Alevli, 27 décembre 2010 - 03:12 .