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[Aermas]

Kensai may be different in BG but in D&D they are just warriors

[Kangaxx628]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Kangaxx628 wrote...

Aermas wrote...

The Kensai in D&D is just a warrior that is just really really dedicated to one sword.

Oh it was more than that atleast in BGII. The Kensai was a warrior who didn't wear armor except bracers and boots thus it was a natural hybrid/dual class w/ the mage or sorc since there were serious penalties for casting arcane spells in armor.

Kensai in BG2 can't wear bracers (EDIT: or gloves or helmets), either. They receive natural AC bonuses instead.

And there's no armor penalty for arcane spells in BG2. Single class mages and sorcerers cannot wear armor at all, and if they do wear armor by virtue of dual/multiclassing, they lose their ability to cast spells altogether.

Ah you're right although, I recall being able to wear the goofy quest headress to avoid the criticals or perhaps just used an Ioun stone w/ the dual mage/kensai. Arcane spell failure was from NWN2, which I've played more recently. Anyway, the Kensai/mage was a natural hybrid since both classes had the same restrictions w/ armor. The class only became unbalanced due to dual wielding a ~25% stun weapon and getting 3-4 attacks per round making a stunned opponent highly likely. I assume a similar mechanic w/ be exploited by the rogue class in DA2 or just a vicious abuse of the hide in plain sight tactic for everything lower than orange/boss MOBs.

[Ortaya Alevli]

Kangaxx628 wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Kensai in BG2 can't wear bracers (EDIT: or gloves or helmets), either. They receive natural AC bonuses instead.

And there's no armor penalty for arcane spells in BG2. Single class mages and sorcerers cannot wear armor at all, and if they do wear armor by virtue of dual/multiclassing, they lose their ability to cast spells altogether.

Ah you're right although, I recall being able to wear the goofy quest headress to avoid the criticals or perhaps just used an Ioun stone w/ the dual mage/kensai. Arcane spell failure was from NWN2, which I've played more recently. Anyway, the Kensai/mage was a natural hybrid since both classes had the same restrictions w/ armor. The class only became unbalanced due to dual wielding a ~25% stun weapon and getting 3-4 attacks per round making a stunned opponent highly likely. I assume a similar mechanic w/ be exploited by the rogue class in DA2 or just a vicious abuse of the hide in plain sight tactic for everything lower than orange/boss MOBs.

Sure, inability to wear helmets doesn't mean that slot will have to stay empty at all times. You have ioun stones, you have King Strohm 3's mask, and so forth.

[Sutamina]

Talking about Baldur's Gate 2 long enough will get this thread locked as it would be going off on a tangent.

Anyways I like that they are making the class more unique and more about what they are suppose to be instead of trying to be something that they are not.

[tonnactus]

Sutamina wrote...

Anyways I like that they are making the class more unique and more about what they are suppose to be instead of trying to be something that they are not.

"Uniqness" by restricting players choices,right?
Its best to leave it to each individual to decide what a class should be or not.
There is no reason why a mage shouldnt be able to use swords.

[Archereon]

My excitment for this game just went from

Here (looks mostly good, only a little nervous)

to here (Favorite spec gone, WTF!!!)

Well no, not really.  We've known that Arcane Warriors were gone for a while, it just wasn't officially confirmed. 

Sucks to Bioware's policy of removing everything that people complain about rather than fixing it, and to the homogenization of single classes in the name of the differentiation of multiple classes.  And to the fact that mages have been nerfed TO THE GROUND into two bit healbots for l33t warriors who press buttons and make Hack and Slash awesome stuff happen, and ninja rogues who do it from behind who will likely be the most overpowered class in the game this time around.

P.S: I'm not calling DA2 a Hack and Slash, just insinuating that Bioware MIGHT be making one class an idiot proof button mashing fest (on easier difficulties at least), which will of course be the most popular class in the game.

Modifié par Archereon, 27 décembre 2010 - 02:37 .

[Maconbar]

Archereon wrote...

My excitment for this game just went from

Here (looks mostly good, only a little nervous)

to here (Favorite spec gone, WTF!!!)

Well no, not really.  We've known that Arcane Warriors were gone for a while, it just wasn't officially confirmed. 

Sucks to Bioware's policy of removing everything that people complain about rather than fixing it, and to the homogenization of single classes in the name of the differentiation of multiple classes.  And to the fact that mages have been nerfed TO THE GROUND into two bit healbots for l33t warriors who press buttons and make Hack and Slash awesome stuff happen, and ninja rogues who do it from behind who will likely be the most overpowered class in the game this time around.

P.S: I'm not calling DA2 a Hack and Slash, just insinuating that Bioware MIGHT be making one class an idiot proof button mashing fest (on easier difficulties at least), which will of course be the most popular class in the game.

Nice post except that Arcane Warrior was the most idiot proof specialization in the game.

[marshalleck]

Archereon wrote...

My excitment for this game just went from

Here (looks mostly good, only a little nervous)

to here (Favorite spec gone, WTF!!!)

Well no, not really.  We've known that Arcane Warriors were gone for a while, it just wasn't officially confirmed. 

Sucks to Bioware's policy of removing everything that people complain about rather than fixing it, and to the homogenization of single classes in the name of the differentiation of multiple classes.  And to the fact that mages have been nerfed TO THE GROUND into two bit healbots for l33t warriors who press buttons and make Hack and Slash awesome stuff happen, and ninja rogues who do it from behind who will likely be the most overpowered class in the game this time around.

P.S: I'm not calling DA2 a Hack and Slash, just insinuating that Bioware MIGHT be making one class an idiot proof button mashing fest (on easier difficulties at least), which will of course be the most popular class in the game.

What a bunch of baseless whining BS

You have no idea how powerful mages may or may not be in DA2

Modifié par marshalleck, 27 décembre 2010 - 02:52 .

[Archereon]

marshalleck wrote...

Archereon wrote...

My excitment for this game just went from

Here (looks mostly good, only a little nervous)

to here (Favorite spec gone, WTF!!!)

Well no, not really.  We've known that Arcane Warriors were gone for a while, it just wasn't officially confirmed. 

Sucks to Bioware's policy of removing everything that people complain about rather than fixing it, and to the homogenization of single classes in the name of the differentiation of multiple classes.  And to the fact that mages have been nerfed TO THE GROUND into two bit healbots for l33t warriors who press buttons and make Hack and Slash awesome stuff happen, and ninja rogues who do it from behind who will likely be the most overpowered class in the game this time around.

P.S: I'm not calling DA2 a Hack and Slash, just insinuating that Bioware MIGHT be making one class an idiot proof button mashing fest (on easier difficulties at least), which will of course be the most popular class in the game.

What a bunch of baseless whining BS

You have no idea how powerful mages may or may not be in DA2

Historically, Bioware has removed or greatly de-powered/overpowered everything that people complain about.  Since removing mages isn't a viable option (unlike removing AWs), they'll be nerfed to the ground.  If I knew you IRL, I would actually bet money that this would happen, and I think I would have a very good chance of winning that bet.

Examples of this, even in my time as a Bioware fan...

Mako in ME1 goes away in ME2, and its replacement is just an optional baubble in a paid DLC
Inventory in ME1 goes away in ME2, and its replacement is a godawful planet scanning and upgrade system.
Arcane Warriors are incredibly overpowered in DA:O, the concept is scrapped in DA2.

Modifié par Archereon, 27 décembre 2010 - 03:07 .

[Archereon]

Maconbar wrote...

Archereon wrote...

My excitment for this game just went from

Here (looks mostly good, only a little nervous)

to here (Favorite spec gone, WTF!!!)

Well no, not really.  We've known that Arcane Warriors were gone for a while, it just wasn't officially confirmed. 

Sucks to Bioware's policy of removing everything that people complain about rather than fixing it, and to the homogenization of single classes in the name of the differentiation of multiple classes.  And to the fact that mages have been nerfed TO THE GROUND into two bit healbots for l33t warriors who press buttons and make Hack and Slash awesome stuff happen, and ninja rogues who do it from behind who will likely be the most overpowered class in the game this time around.

P.S: I'm not calling DA2 a Hack and Slash, just insinuating that Bioware MIGHT be making one class an idiot proof button mashing fest (on easier difficulties at least), which will of course be the most popular class in the game.

Nice post except that Arcane Warrior was the most idiot proof specialization in the game.

Not if you didn't have at least some experience with RPGs.  I'm talking about the kind of idiot proof that enables someone who has never played an RPG in their life to pick up this game, and immediately dominate it with that class without using any online guides to making your character uber.

[Loc'n'lol]

Activate combat magic. Activate shimmering shield. Go take a snack.



What could possibly make you think that the warrior or the rogue are going to be as easy to play as auto-attack-until-it-dies-im-invulnerable-anyway in DA2 ? Certainly doesn't look that way in the previews and videos so far.

[Archereon]

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...

Activate combat magic. Activate shimmering shield. Go take a snack.

What could possibly make you think that the warrior or the rogue are going to be as easy to play as auto-attack-until-it-dies-im-invulnerable-anyway in DA2 ? Certainly doesn't look that way in the previews and videos so far.

The AW wouldn't be nearly as OP as it was, if they'd just nerf shimmering shield...OH WAIT!  They did, they gave it its proper mana cost, and AWs weren't gods anymore, though they were still immensely OP, they could die, especially on nightmare.

I would prefer that Bioware would balance things rather than remove them, but NOOOOOO, we can't have that, the fans are whinning, obviously, they think the idea of a melee mage is the devil, mages are now softie healbots or glass cannons, such differentiation within classes!

[NKKKK]

Archereon is making a good point. Kill instead of rehabilitation...god.

[upsettingshorts]

Making classes more distinct is an addition for people who want their classes to be more distinct.

[NKKKK]

ICwhatyoudidthar

[upsettingshorts]

What I did thar was try to point out that what you guys are saying is:

"They removed something I value and didn't replace it with anything I value."
not
"They removed something and didn't replace it with anything."

Personally, I like skill-based systems. All these class systems are just things I feel like I have to deal with. I've never preferred them, I just try to work with them. So DA2 is just replacing one arbitrary fixed class system instead of DAO's arbitrary fixed class system.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 27 décembre 2010 - 04:01 .

[Archereon]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Making classes more distinct is an addition for people who want their classes to be more distinct.

But that seems to be coming at the cost of the homogenization of existing classes, which I dislike.

The fact that single classes could be built into so many things was a strong point for DA:O in my opinion, and made up for the fact that there are only 3 classes in the game rather than the dozens other RPGs have been known to have.

[upsettingshorts]

Archereon wrote...

But that seems to be coming at the cost of the homogenization of existing classes, which I dislike.

Everything has a price.

[Archereon]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Archereon wrote...

But that seems to be coming at the cost of the homogenization of existing classes, which I dislike.

Everything has a price.

And I don't think that price is worth it, not unless we get about 7 more classes to play as, which would mitigate the lack of differentiation between classes, and add some measure of replayibility.

[upsettingshorts]

Archereon wrote...

And I don't think that price is worth it

I gathered that.  I'm not really arguing with you, just pointing out that Bioware doesn't just gut features "instead" of fixing them.  They make a change they feel serves some end, and there's a price to be paid for that, one that not everyone is going to feel is a fair or reasonable one. 

[Archereon]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Archereon wrote...

And I don't think that price is worth it

I gathered that.  I'm not really arguing with you, just pointing out that Bioware doesn't just gut features "instead" of fixing them.  They make a change they feel serves some end, and there's a price to be paid for that, one that not everyone is going to feel is a fair or reasonable one. 

They actually do tend to remove features, or replace them with something half-arsed a lot.

This happened to the Mako, the inventory in Mass Effect, is happening to Arcane Warriors, and probably has happened quite a bit in earlier games that I never played.

From what I've gathered, force magic will not be a replacement for Arcane Warrior, it will most likely be a heavily crowd control based spec or a heavily damage based spec, with Blood Mage serving as the opposite side of that coin...

of course, if spirit warrior ends up being a replacement for Arcane Warrior, I'll be even more pissed, since they gave my favorite spec to a class I'm not planning on playing much.

[upsettingshorts]

Archereon wrote...

They actually do tend to remove features, or replace them with something half-arsed a lot.

That's opinion, based on a non-acceptance of the price.

Archereon wrote...

This happened to the Mako

They changed planet exploration entirely and replaced the MAKO and uncharted worlds with a smaller but more detailed and focused number of N7 missions.  Eventually, they also added the Hammerhead - which was basically a minigame that happened to have a vehicle.

Archereon wrote...

the inventory in Mass Effect

Yes and no.  Shepard gained the ability to mix and match armor pieces - each with its own, albeit somewhat insignificant - bonuses in addition to appearance.  The addition of unique outfits is also objectively an addition, however it is one of the more controversial features because a large number of people feel the price is too high - the removal of player control.  In terms of weapons, the reduction in total firearms in ME2 made it possible for each weapon to have its own unique performance characteristics, something I can appreciate as a shooter veteran, but I've learned from the boards that not everyone can.

Archereon wrote...

is happening to Arcane Warriors

They were sacrificed on the altar of the RPG trinity for blurring the line too much.  

Archereon wrote...

of course, if spirit warrior ends up being a replacement for Arcane Warrior, I'll be even more pissed, since they gave my favorite spec to a class I'm not planning on playing much.

So hypothetically if they created a Warrior specialization that played exactly like an Arcane Warrior - you would have a problem with that? 

[Archereon]

Yes I would, largely for RPing reasons, I like playing mages. Arcane warriors didn't blur the line between classes all that much anyway, compared to even S&B warriors (who generally used daggers in the ideal setup and pumped dexterity, making them "dodge" tanks, rather than damage soakers like the AW). And the fact is, AWs, even in their horribly broken DA:O state, would still be very different from S&B warriors and 2h warriors, who seem to be focused on local AoE DPS, much like what is expected from ordinary mages.

The hammerhead is made of paper, is only involved in a paid DLC missions, and is, in my opinion, a lot less fun than combat in the mako, making it, IMHO, a half-arsed replacement, just like the lack of a significant inventory system in ME2. I didn't even notice the effects of the new armor pieces on my character, they were purely cosmetic. Half arsed replacement for a broken system rather than a fix for a broken system? IMHO, yes again.  N7 missions?  How about Shooter fan doggie treats.  Literally no story involved in them, and no rewards beyond a few credits and some resources (which are much more easily aquired through even the pre-patch planet scanning)?  Yeah they existed solely for the combat.

Planet scanning was just terrible in my opinion, which many others, including high profile reviewers shared, prompting Bioware to make it pathetically easy, yet still annoying in a patch.

Modifié par Archereon, 27 décembre 2010 - 04:23 .

[upsettingshorts]

Archereon wrote...

Yes I would, largely for RPing reasons, I like playing mages. Arcane warriors didn't blur the line between classes all that much anyway, compared to even S&B warriors (who generally used daggers in the ideal setup and pumped dexterity, making them "dodge" tanks, rather than damage soakers like the AW).

RP reasons are what I expected, though I'm not sure I want to get into a discussion about ideal builds.  If Bioware is making the assertion that in DA2 warriors will tank and do AOE damage, rogues will do single target damage, and mages will do whatever it is they're supposed to do...  that's what we should expect.

Archereon wrote...

The hammerhead is made of paper, is only involved in a paid DLC missions, and is, in my opinion, a lot less fun than combat in the mako, making it, IMHO, a half-arsed replacement, just like the lack of a significant inventory system in ME2. I didn't even notice the effects of the new armor pieces on my character, they were purely cosmetic. Half arsed replacement for a broken system rather than a fix for a broken system? IMHO, yes again.

The fact that you're saying IMHO means you're not actually arguing with me.  There are others who would argue that none of the changes were half-assed, but welcome features.  My point is that from Bioware's perspective they aren't gutting stuff, they make changes and people either like it or they don't. 

Archereon wrote...

Planet scanning was just terrible in my opinion, which many others, including high profile reviewers shared, prompting Bioware to make it pathetically easy, yet still annoying in a patch.

To be honest I didn't like that either, but I still liked it better than resource "gathering" in ME1.  That's a feature I'd rather they remove entirely to be perfectly honest.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 27 décembre 2010 - 04:26 .