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#26
Bamboozalist

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AdmiralCheez wrote...

Bamboozalist wrote...

If you *don't* try to hold your breath, exposure to space for half a minute or so is unlikely to produce permanent injury. Holding your breath is likely to damage your lungs, something scuba divers have to watch out for when ascending, and you'll have eardrum trouble if your Eustachian tubes are badly plugged up, but theory predicts -- and animal experiments confirm --that otherwise, exposure to vacuum causes no immediate injury. You do not explode. Your blood does not boil. You do not freeze. You do not instantly lose consciousness.


The sciene, I did not know it before, it intrigues me, but we were waltzing around in space for a bit longer than thirty seconds.  And you know what?  Screw the extreme temperatures, the dangerous radiation, and the near-zero pressure: consider the bullets.


Radiation is the only thing that you listed that will cause any harm and considering none of the ME2 squad mates are walking around in ships, stations, and other places that would be shielded from that your point is moot.

1. Space does is not hot or cold, it's nothing. Things freeze/boil in space because of the pressure difference NOT because of the tempature. Your blood would not boil because your body regulates the pressure, the saliva on your tongue would boil but every ME2 squad mate has their mouth covered so that point is moot.

The vapor pressure of water at 37 C is 47 mm Hg. As long as you keep your blood-pressure above that (which you will unless you go deep into shock) your blood will not boil. The body regulates blood pressure as a gauge, rather than absolute pressure (e.g. your blood vessels don't collapse when you dive 10 feet into a pool).

2. First off it's not near-zero it IS zero, secondly that's only a ONE atmospheric pressure difference, you know what that does to you? According to NASA "[mild, reversible, painless] swelling of skin and underlying tissue". To put this in perspective of how little one atmosphere of pressure is at around ~10m under the ocean you're at roughly double normal atmospheric pressure. Human's can dive with training to ~300m and a normal human depending on how well in shape they are can take ~100m to 200m.

The reason that a human does not burst is that our skin has some strength. For instance compressed oxygen in a steel tank may be at several hundreds times the pressure of the air outside and the strength of the steel keeps the cylinder from breaking. Although our skin is not steel, it still is strong enough to keep our bodies from bursting in space.

TL:DR - This is a case of reality being unrealistic. Just like cars don't explode, space isn't THAT deadly. As long as you can breathe and deal with the unfiltered radiation you're fine.

Modifié par Bamboozalist, 22 décembre 2010 - 04:09 .


#27
SmokePants

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Eyes would rapidly lose moisture, but they wouldn't pop.

Everybody wearing armor is visually boring. It's really as simple as that. Besides, when precisely were these characters exposed to a confirmed (as opposed to an assumed) vacuum, aside from Sheperd and Joker in the intro?

Modifié par SmokePants, 22 décembre 2010 - 04:14 .


#28
AdmiralCheez

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Bamboozalist wrote...

Radiation is the only thing that you listed that will cause any harm and considering none of the ME2 squad mates are walking around in ships, stations, and other places that would be shielded from that your point is moot.

1. Space does is not hot or cold, it's nothing. Things freeze/boil in space because of the pressure difference NOT because of the tempature. Your blood would not boil because your body regulates the pressure, the saliva on your tongue would boil but every ME2 squad mate has their mouth covered so that point is moot.

The vapor pressure of water at 37 C is 47 mm Hg. As long as you keep your blood-pressure above that (which you will unless you go deep into shock) your blood will not boil. The body regulates blood pressure as a gauge, rather than absolute pressure (e.g. your blood vessels don't collapse when you dive 10 feet into a pool).

2. First off it's not near-zero it IS zero, secondly that's only a ONE atmospheric pressure difference, you know what that does to you? According to NASA "[mild, reversible, painless] swelling of skin and underlying tissue". To put this in perspective of how little one atmosphere of pressure is at around ~10m under the ocean you're at roughly double normal atmospheric pressure. Human's can dive with training to ~300m and a normal human depending on how well in shape they are can take ~100m to 200m.

The reason that a human does not burst is that our skin has some strength. For instance compressed oxygen in a steel tank may be at several hundreds times the pressure of the air outside and the strength of the steel keeps the cylinder from breaking. Although our skin is not steel, it still is strong enough to keep our bodies from bursting in space.

TL:DR - This is a case of reality being unrealistic. Just like cars don't explode, space isn't THAT deadly. As long as you can breathe and deal with the unfiltered radiation you're fine.

All-capsy time because for some reason pounding on the shift key sounds more fun than BBCode (so do not read as shouting, cuz I ain't, just lazy):

I appreciate your efforts to educate me, but I KNOW that boiling is caused by pressure (hence, getting the bends), I KNOW that the sun's corona, the hottest part of its atmosphere, wouldn't "feel" hot because it is so thin, and I KNOW people don't explode in space because you EXPLAINED it to me in the LAST post (and THANK you for providing that information because I honestly didn't know about that.)

MY POINT IS THAT RUNNING AROUND NAKED IN A POTENTIALLY HAZARDOUS ENVIRONMENT IS STUPID, ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE GETTING SHOT AT.

#29
Bamboozalist

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AdmiralCheez wrote...

Bamboozalist wrote...

Radiation is the only thing that you listed that will cause any harm and considering none of the ME2 squad mates are walking around in ships, stations, and other places that would be shielded from that your point is moot.

1. Space does is not hot or cold, it's nothing. Things freeze/boil in space because of the pressure difference NOT because of the tempature. Your blood would not boil because your body regulates the pressure, the saliva on your tongue would boil but every ME2 squad mate has their mouth covered so that point is moot.

The vapor pressure of water at 37 C is 47 mm Hg. As long as you keep your blood-pressure above that (which you will unless you go deep into shock) your blood will not boil. The body regulates blood pressure as a gauge, rather than absolute pressure (e.g. your blood vessels don't collapse when you dive 10 feet into a pool).

2. First off it's not near-zero it IS zero, secondly that's only a ONE atmospheric pressure difference, you know what that does to you? According to NASA "[mild, reversible, painless] swelling of skin and underlying tissue". To put this in perspective of how little one atmosphere of pressure is at around ~10m under the ocean you're at roughly double normal atmospheric pressure. Human's can dive with training to ~300m and a normal human depending on how well in shape they are can take ~100m to 200m.

The reason that a human does not burst is that our skin has some strength. For instance compressed oxygen in a steel tank may be at several hundreds times the pressure of the air outside and the strength of the steel keeps the cylinder from breaking. Although our skin is not steel, it still is strong enough to keep our bodies from bursting in space.

TL:DR - This is a case of reality being unrealistic. Just like cars don't explode, space isn't THAT deadly. As long as you can breathe and deal with the unfiltered radiation you're fine.

All-capsy time because for some reason pounding on the shift key sounds more fun than BBCode (so do not read as shouting, cuz I ain't, just lazy):

I appreciate your efforts to educate me, but I KNOW that boiling is caused by pressure (hence, getting the bends), I KNOW that the sun's corona, the hottest part of its atmosphere, wouldn't "feel" hot because it is so thin, and I KNOW people don't explode in space because you EXPLAINED it to me in the LAST post (and THANK you for providing that information because I honestly didn't know about that.)

MY POINT IS THAT RUNNING AROUND NAKED IN A POTENTIALLY HAZARDOUS ENVIRONMENT IS STUPID, ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE GETTING SHOT AT.


But I like  ! Also you said adequate vacuum protection, not adequate bullet protection, I was simply pointing out that reality is unrealistic and they do have adequate vacuum protection...and that's about it. Although now I kinda want to see Bioware actually put a character running around space completely naked except for a mask and goggles.

#30
Bamboozalist

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SmokePants wrote...

Eyes would rapidly lose moisture, but they wouldn't pop.

Everybody wearing armor is visually boring. It's really as simple as that. Besides, when precisely were these characters exposed to a confirmed (as opposed to an assumed) vacuum, aside from Sheperd and Joker in the intro?


Geth space station.

#31
SmokePants

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Special forces don't wear helmets, because they don't stop bullets, anyway.

EDIT: For a supposed vacuum, sound carried awfully well in that Geth space station.

Modifié par SmokePants, 22 décembre 2010 - 04:47 .


#32
Bamboozalist

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SmokePants wrote...

Special forces don't wear helmets, because they don't stop[ bullets, anyway.


Neither does bullet proof armor (it will stop most pistol rounds but nothing in a military fire fight) but that doesn't stop soldiers from wearing kevlar and helmets in a fire fight. There are these things called shrapnel and ricochets that they do stop also debris that generally tends to be flying around in a war zone.

#33
samurai crusade

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Toggle helmets please! I can stretch my imagination to see that kinetic barriers can cover a skantily clad Jack and curve hugging Miranda.. But the lack of helmets bothers me. In the vacuum of space, on an alien world... Haestrom! you need more than an oxygen tank. Please, please... Give us proper helmets in a dlc!

#34
Bamboozalist

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samurai crusade wrote...

Toggle helmets please! I can stretch my imagination to see that kinetic barriers can cover a skantily clad Jack and curve hugging Miranda.. But the lack of helmets bothers me. In the vacuum of space, on an alien world... Haestrom! you need more than an oxygen tank. Please, please... Give us proper helmets in a dlc!


No you don't. Well you do need radiation protection but a helmet isn't going to do that with what Miranda and Jack are wearing.

#35
Talthanar

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GI armor will stop up to a 7.62 (aka 30 calibur) round just fine. the good stuff is ceramic not kevlar. even some kevlars will stop up to a 30. Not everyone packs a .50 machine gun ya know. The 5.56 is a weak round all considered. Main reason the military switched to it is cause it's cheap.

#36
Bamboozalist

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Talthanar wrote...

GI armor will stop up to a 7.62 (aka 30 calibur) round just fine. the good stuff is ceramic not kevlar. even some kevlars will stop up to a 30. Not everyone packs a .50 machine gun ya know. The 5.56 is a weak round all considered. Main reason the military switched to it is cause it's cheap.


It doesn't stop them all the time. All it depends on what type of ceramic armor you're talking about the III-A and IV-A stuff does not stop .308 or larger and doesn't even always stop the 5.56.

#37
didymos1120

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SmokePants wrote...

Special forces don't wear helmets, because they don't stop bullets, anyway.

EDIT: For a supposed vacuum, sound carried awfully well in that Geth space station.


Uh, they do have suit radios, which is what they used because Legion flat-out tells you it's got so little pressure it may as well be a hard vacuum.

Modifié par didymos1120, 22 décembre 2010 - 05:18 .


#38
SmokePants

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Bamboozalist wrote...

SmokePants wrote...

Special forces don't wear helmets, because they don't stop[ bullets, anyway.


Neither does bullet proof armor (it will stop most pistol rounds but nothing in a military fire fight) but that doesn't stop soldiers from wearing kevlar and helmets in a fire fight. There are these things called shrapnel and ricochets that they do stop also debris that generally tends to be flying around in a war zone.


SF -- or more accurately, Delta operators --  can pretty much wear what they want. just like it is assumed that our intrepic crew does. If you compare an operator to a GI, the operator is going to look much more casual. And if they had access to force fields and medi-gel, they would probably be going into battle in tank tops and flip flops.

That's my point, really. Heavy armor might be a preference, rather than a necessity in the ME universe. And who in the Hell would trust a set of armor that is routinely pierced with projectiles to function adequately as an atmosphere suit?

To me, a magic force field can substitude for armor. A magic force field can trap gasses. But a magic force field cannot store gear. So, why isn't anyone complaining about the lack of tac vests? POCKETS!

didymos1120 wrote...

SmokePants wrote...

Special forces don't wear helmets, because they don't stop bullets, anyway.

EDIT: For a supposed vacuum, sound carried awfully well in that Geth space station.


Uh,
they do have suit radios, which is what they used because Legion
flat-out tells you it's got so little pressure it may as well be a hard
vacuum.


Is the gunfire coming via radio? What about the Geth chirping sounds. The sound environment for a vacuum was clearly established in the intro and that wasn't it. I remember Legion said we can expect to find little air or gravity, but I don't recall if he explicitly stated it was a vacuum. If he did, he was wrong.

Modifié par SmokePants, 22 décembre 2010 - 05:40 .


#39
Bamboozalist

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SmokePants wrote...

Bamboozalist wrote...

SmokePants wrote...

Special forces don't wear helmets, because they don't stop[ bullets, anyway.


Neither does bullet proof armor (it will stop most pistol rounds but nothing in a military fire fight) but that doesn't stop soldiers from wearing kevlar and helmets in a fire fight. There are these things called shrapnel and ricochets that they do stop also debris that generally tends to be flying around in a war zone.


SF -- or more accurately, Delta operators --  can pretty much wear what they want. just like it is assumed that our intrepic crew does. If you compare an operator to a GI, the operator is going to look much more casual. And if they had access to force fields and medi-gel, they would probably be going into battle in tank tops and flip flops.

That's my point, really. Heavy armor might be a preference, rather than a necessity in the ME universe. And who in the Hell would trust a set of armor that is routinely pierced with projectiles to function adequately as an atmosphere suit?

To me, a magic force field can substitude for armor. A magic force field can trap gasses. But a magic force field cannot store gear. So, why isn't anyone complaining about the lack of tac vests? POCKETS!


Special Forces don't wear body armor and helmets for weight reasons, they have to move quickly and quietly.

#40
samurai crusade

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Bamboozalist wrote...

samurai crusade wrote...

Toggle helmets please! I can stretch my imagination to see that kinetic barriers can cover a skantily clad Jack and curve hugging Miranda.. But the lack of helmets bothers me. In the vacuum of space, on an alien world... Haestrom! you need more than an oxygen tank. Please, please... Give us proper helmets in a dlc!


No you don't. Well you do need radiation protection but a helmet isn't going to do that with what Miranda and Jack are wearing.


True, they'll need armor which I wish they had.  The cinematics and dialogue on-board the Normandy are great in their regular outfits. But on the field they should wear something armored.   Similar to ME1. You could change your crew's armor and helmet toggle, but onboard the Normandy they were in their default.   I miss that.

#41
--Master of All--

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didymos1120 wrote...

SmokePants wrote...

Special forces don't wear helmets, because they don't stop bullets, anyway.

EDIT: For a supposed vacuum, sound carried awfully well in that Geth space station.


Uh, they do have suit radios, which is what they used because Legion flat-out tells you it's got so little pressure it may as well be a hard vacuum.


And I suppose the gunshots were just carrying through the floor? ;)

#42
didymos1120

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--Master of All-- wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

SmokePants wrote...

Special forces don't wear helmets, because they don't stop bullets, anyway.

EDIT: For a supposed vacuum, sound carried awfully well in that Geth space station.


Uh, they do have suit radios, which is what they used because Legion flat-out tells you it's got so little pressure it may as well be a hard vacuum.


And I suppose the gunshots were just carrying through the floor? ;)


That plus bone conduction.  That's my story, and I"m sticking to it.  Also: same reason the ship guns make cool noises despite being in space.

But anyway, fact is, Legion does tell you there's basically zero atmosphere in there.

#43
didymos1120

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SmokePants wrote...
 The sound environment for a vacuum was clearly established in the intro and that wasn't it.


Oh, you mean that definitely-a-vacuum environment in which the Collector cruiser's cannon is clearly audible?  That one?

#44
SmokePants

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If he said that, he was wrong. Plain and simple. We saw what walking around in a Vacuum looks like at the beginning of the game. Muted sound and Sheperd moving like he is trying to hold in diarrhea.

#45
Bamboozalist

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SmokePants wrote...

If he said that, he was wrong. Plain and simple. We saw what walking around in a Vacuum looks like at the beginning of the game. Muted sound and Sheperd moving like he is trying to hold in diarrhea.


We also hear weapons firing in a vacuum several times. Normandy's assault on the collector base. Tons of sound, it's still in space...

#46
Dionkey

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The fact that some squad members have some skin exposed in vacuums has no large effect as long as they don't have massive pressure spike which could collapse their lungs. Besides, they have Kinetic barriers, last time I checked when the Normandy's hull was damaged and there were wide gaping holes in space the barriers contained the heat and oxygen. You could argue the fact that if those barriers go down and they get hit then its over, but that goes for anyone skin exposed or not. It is a game after all. You also have to wonder why Thane has no shirt on and lets his abs lay out, it doesn't really have to be logical in a game.

#47
SmokePants

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But it's from a cinematic POV, which is allowed some license. The one time we were in control of Sheperd and there was clear evidence of atmospheric decompression, the game behaved totally differently to any other point in the game.



Also, the Collector cannon can technically be emitting its own particles to generate a noise in a vacuum. But most likely that was an example of license being taken.

#48
Dionkey

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Bamboozalist wrote...

SmokePants wrote...

If he said that, he was wrong. Plain and simple. We saw what walking around in a Vacuum looks like at the beginning of the game. Muted sound and Sheperd moving like he is trying to hold in diarrhea.


We also hear weapons firing in a vacuum several times. Normandy's assault on the collector base. Tons of sound, it's still in space...

To add onto that point, didn't they say the collector base had kinectic barries protecting from the exploding stars? So its plausiable that it would make sound considering there is oxygen within the bases and barriers.

#49
shumworld

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I will give up all the armors I owned from ME2 for a return of the helmet toggle.

#50
didymos1120

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SmokePants wrote...

If he said that, he was wrong. Plain and simple. We saw what walking around in a Vacuum looks like at the beginning of the game. Muted sound and Sheperd moving like he is trying to hold in diarrhea.


Yeah, the "vacuum makes you move slow" thing: about as accurate as ship-to-ship weapons making noise in space (whether you call that cinematic license or not).  It's likely based off the fact that real-life astronauts wear very bulky suits and often have to be very deliberate in their movements as a result.