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[Quill74Pen]

Everyone:

Well, one of my characters finally chose to side with the werewolves in "Nature of the Beast" Blight quest, so all the Dalish elves wound up dead or transformed into werewolves.

Here's what sort of took me by surprise: Afterward, back at camp, Leliana sang her song about the elves. I thought that if the werewolves triumphed over the elves, Leliana would *not* sing the song in question. But, here she was, singing her lungs out. (Beautiful song, BTW.)

So, was I mistaken in assuming the song wouldn't be sung? Or, because Leliana is in a relationship with my character, does that somehow overwrite what would ordinarily happen in that scenario?

Oh, and last but not least, Morrigan soundly approved (+4) of killing or transforming the Dalish elves. No one else in my party (Sten and Leliana) or back at camp disapproved.

Quill74Pen 

[IanPolaris]

Actually after you finish the Dalish Quest, Lelianna sings that song no matter what, and really no matter what it seems appropriate to me (and I love that song so much I wouldn't mind even if it wasn't appropriate).



The fact that no one disapproves killing off the Dalish Elves should tell you everything you need to know about how elves are regarded in Thedas. Of course Morrigan approves because she despises Zathrien (it's mutual...when they interact you can tell) which prob explains the +4, but no one particularly likes, trusts, understands, or even wants to understand the Dalish Elves (and in many cases vice versa).



Honestly, there is probably good practical reasons for this. Given that elves are always recessive, and given how slowly and sporadically elven growth rates are (and given that the city elves at any rate are a cultural basketcase whose culture emphasizes all the wrong values to survive and thrive as a seperate people), I fully expect elves to be functionally extinct within 500 years or so.



-Polaris

[Arthur Cousland]

I lost respect for city elves somewhat after seeing the servants during the human noble origin who are afraid of the rats in the larder. Then, the Denerim alienage elves allow the humans to treat them the way they do, which ends up with elves being sold to a slaver who uses blood magic on them. If I ever get around to playing as a non-mage elf beyond the origin story, it would most likely be a dalish.



In 500 years, it's likely that both the elves and dwarves (in Ferelden, at least) will be extinct, and only the humans will remain.

[bleetman]

Arthur Cousland wrote...

Then, the Denerim alienage elves allow the humans to treat them the way they do, which ends up with elves being sold to a slaver who uses blood magic on them.

"Allow" implies they have some measure of control over the situation. Alienage elves are essentially still slaves in everything but name.

[IanPolaris]

bleetman wrote...

Arthur Cousland wrote...

Then, the Denerim alienage elves allow the humans to treat them the way they do, which ends up with elves being sold to a slaver who uses blood magic on them.

"Allow" implies they have some measure of control over the situation. Alienage elves are essentially still slaves in everything but name.

Yes and no.  By Yes, it's true that the elves in the alienage are badly treated and all but slaves in name.  By no, I am referring to the fact that culturally these elves as a group seem to be cowardly, self-hating, and far too eager to turn on their own....and far too willing to let other people solve their problems for them or wail in helplessness in a crisis (making them perfect Dupes).  Contrast the city elves with the Casteless of Orzammar who are treated every bit as badly (if not worse) but the castless show real spunk and a willingness (even if it's necessarily via crime or prostitution....sorry 'noble hunting') to improve their lot.  In fact the casteless are probably the most dynamic element in Dwarven culture.

When you make that comparison, it's hard to have any respect for the city elves (and I'm sure even the Dalish don't).

-Polaris

[Zjarcal]

IanPolaris wrote...
The fact that no one disapproves killing off the Dalish Elves...

But Zevran and Wynne do disapprove. Okay, you can persuade Zev to neglect all disapproval, but he's still not happy about it.

[IanPolaris]

Zjarcal wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
The fact that no one disapproves killing off the Dalish Elves...

But Zevran and Wynne do disapprove. Okay, you can persuade Zev to neglect all disapproval, but he's still not happy about it.

Forgot about those two, but I still think my overall point is valid.  Zev you can persuade not to dissaprove, but honestly if there was any one character that should dissaprove it's Zev.  His mother, after all, was Dalish.

As for Wynne.....I'd probably best leave that unsaid.

-Polaris

[Glorfindel709]

I persuaded Zev and got a +1 approval after the conversation ended.... and why should Zev disapprove? He's an elf out of Antiva that never knew his mother and admitted that he 'loved the *idea* of the Dalish' but that it never worked out

[IanPolaris]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

I persuaded Zev and got a +1 approval after the conversation ended.... and why should Zev disapprove? He's an elf out of Antiva that never knew his mother and admitted that he 'loved the *idea* of the Dalish' but that it never worked out

If you don't persuade him, I think Zev simply has a soft spot for the Dalish since his mother was one (look at his reaction when you give him the gloves).  That said, I don't think it's all that important to him (hence the persuade) and pretty much (IMO) backs up what I said about the Dalish and Elves earlier.

-Polaris

[Zjarcal]

If you don't persuade him, when you ask him back at camp what his opinion of the Dalish is, he'll be very pissed off about you bringing up the subject after what you did. He does clarify that it's all really because of his mother, not because of the Dalish.

EDIT: Actually I think this happens if you don't use the polite way to start the convo... so NVMD.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 22 décembre 2010 - 07:19 .

[Addai]

Well, In Uthenera is a dirge for the dead, so singing it would be appropriate, I guess. Even though it was your party that slaughtered a whole clan full of mostly innocent people. 

Modifié par Addai67, 22 décembre 2010 - 07:32 .

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

Well, In Uthenera is a dirge for the dead, so singing it would be appropriate, I guess. Even though it was your party that slaughtered a whole clan full of mostly innocent people. 

Well I agree that slaughting the clan is a really cruddy thing to do, but I can't quite agree that they were innocent in all this.  At the very least Sarel (the storyteller) and Lanaya (Zathrian's first) seem to at least have an inkling that the keeper isn't being honest with them or you....and both fail spectacularly to do anything about it.

In the very rare cases where I do choose the Werewolves, it's inevitably because my Warden (for whatever reason) lost his temper.   This happens because my wardens (like me) really, really hate being lied to, and in those cases Zathrien told one lie too many and my warden essentially lost her temper.

Not heroic or glorious but IMHO very, very believable.

-Polaris

[Glorfindel709]

My Warden is a very vengeful type... A nice person overall, but he does not take betrayal lightly and gets even.



Granted, my helping the werewolves was me accidently selecting the wrong dialogue option that happened to be the persuade them to go kill the Dalish but.... Im interested in seeing how using the Werewolves works out for me against Archie, Ive previously always sided with the dalish (usually through getting the curse lifted)

[Addai]

IanPolaris wrote...
Well I agree that slaughting the clan is a really cruddy thing to do, but I can't quite agree that they were innocent in all this.  At the very least Sarel (the storyteller) and Lanaya (Zathrian's first) seem to at least have an inkling that the keeper isn't being honest with them or you....and both fail spectacularly to do anything about it.

In the very rare cases where I do choose the Werewolves, it's inevitably because my Warden (for whatever reason) lost his temper.   This happens because my wardens (like me) really, really hate being lied to, and in those cases Zathrien told one lie too many and my warden essentially lost her temper.

Not heroic or glorious but IMHO very, very believable.

-Polaris

Zathrian's lie, or even Zathrian's, Sarel's and Lanaya's lie, have nothing to do with the entire clan including dippy teenagers (Gheyna and Cammen) and children who know nothing about it.

It's the most pointlessly evil thing in the game if you ask me.  The werewolves aren't freed from the curse so it will continue to spread to others, you have no idea if they'll honor their promise to help in the Blight, you could be cutting off aid from other Dalish clans, etc.  But I guess games should include the "stupidly evil" choices, too.

[Zjarcal]

Addai67 wrote...
It's the most pointlessly evil thing in the game if you ask me.  The werewolves aren't freed from the curse so it will continue to spread to others, you have no idea if they'll honor their promise to help in the Blight, you could be cutting off aid from other Dalish clans, etc.  But I guess games should include the "stupidly evil" choices, too.

I don't expect you to agree, but I once posted a reply to the whole "siding with the werewolves is stupid evil" position, here:

http://social.biowar...03833/3#5316435

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Well I agree that slaughting the clan is a really cruddy thing to do, but I can't quite agree that they were innocent in all this.  At the very least Sarel (the storyteller) and Lanaya (Zathrian's first) seem to at least have an inkling that the keeper isn't being honest with them or you....and both fail spectacularly to do anything about it.

In the very rare cases where I do choose the Werewolves, it's inevitably because my Warden (for whatever reason) lost his temper.   This happens because my wardens (like me) really, really hate being lied to, and in those cases Zathrien told one lie too many and my warden essentially lost her temper.

Not heroic or glorious but IMHO very, very believable.

-Polaris

Zathrian's lie, or even Zathrian's, Sarel's and Lanaya's lie, have nothing to do with the entire clan including dippy teenagers (Gheyna and Cammen) and children who know nothing about it.

It's the most pointlessly evil thing in the game if you ask me.  The werewolves aren't freed from the curse so it will continue to spread to others, you have no idea if they'll honor their promise to help in the Blight, you could be cutting off aid from other Dalish clans, etc.  But I guess games should include the "stupidly evil" choices, too.

I was beaten to it, but yeah, IMHO it's only "stupid evil" if you just want as much death as possible (after all you have no treaty with the Lady of the Forest/Werewolves).

I don't disagree that it's not a very good thing to do, but there are justifications and circumstances:

1.  If you don't believe that Zatherian is working with you in good faith (and indeed at this point you know this to be true) and so you can't trust him to do the right thing unless it's a choice between that and the extinction of his own clan.  You have no way of knowing (in character) in advance that Zathrian would rather see his whole clan die than end the curse.  Play out that scene and it puts Zatherian is a very bad light (even worse than already).

2.  Given that Zathrian has quite openly played you for a fool, it's not unreasonable for you to simply lose your temper (in character anyway) and want to beat Zathrian over the head with a furry hammer as it were.  This second isn't very rational and indeed tragic, but I can easily see it.

-Polaris

[Zy-El]

Punish Zathrian alone for the crime he alone committed. I usually choose Zathrian to die in order to end the curse that he begat in the first place. That is justice.

It is not in the Warden's interest to make war against the entire Dalish nation. Word of killing one clan will undoubtedly reach the other clans and thus would not be willing to honor the treaty with the Wardens.

[IanPolaris]

Zy-El wrote...

Punish Zathrian alone for the crime he alone committed. I usually choose Zathrian to die in order to end the curse that he begat in the first place. That is justice.
It is not in the Warden's interest to make war against the entire Dalish nation. Word of killing one clan will undoubtedly reach the other clans and thus would not be willing to honor the treaty with the Wardens.

Oh, I don't disagree.  Ideally Zathrian and Zathrian alone should have to pay for what he's done as much (indirectly) to the Dalish as to the Werewolves I think.  I also agree that if the Warden destroys the Dalish, the treaty the Wardens have with the Dalish is void.

All I was trying to get across is a reasonable warden who is not a graduate of the Hannibal Lecter School of Culinary Arts could easily and reasonbly lose his temper and wind up killing the clan (especially since Sarel and Lanaya are clearly complicit as well).

-Polaris

[Glorfindel709]

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

All I was trying to get across is a reasonable warden who is not a graduate of the Hannibal Lecter School of Culinary Arts could easily and reasonbly lose his temper and wind up killing the clan/quote]

hahahahaha

[Addai]

IanPolaris wrote...
1.  If you don't believe that Zatherian is working with you in good faith (and indeed at this point you know this to be true) and so you can't trust him to do the right thing unless it's a choice between that and the extinction of his own clan.  You have no way of knowing (in character) in advance that Zathrian would rather see his whole clan die than end the curse.  Play out that scene and it puts Zatherian is a very bad light (even worse than already).

But that's not what you suggest to the werewolves.  You suggest- indeed you have to Persuade them- to "kill the Dalish."  Kill, and kill plural.  So if you don't know that you're going there to exterminate them, the dialogue makes no sense.  That's even more bloodthirsty than the intentions of these supposedly mindless ravenous beasts (under influence of the Lady, of course).

2.  Given that Zathrian has quite openly played you for a fool, it's not unreasonable for you to simply lose your temper (in character anyway) and want to beat Zathrian over the head with a furry hammer as it were.  This second isn't very rational and indeed tragic, but I can easily see it.

-Polaris

But again, what you propose is not just to "kill Zathrian" but to "kill the Dalish."

The only way that it makes any logical sense, other than that your PC is chaotic evil and having a bad day, is if you are roleplaying a genocidal instinct towards all elves.  Which means you go to the Dalish camp intending to kill them all and realize you need backup.  It would be more interesting to me if you had the option to kill Zathrian when you confront him in the Temple, and then have to either cover it up or deal with the consequences with the clan.

Modifié par Addai67, 22 décembre 2010 - 11:59 .

[Zjarcal]

Addai67 wrote...

But that's not what you suggest to the werewolves.  You suggest- indeed you have to Persuade them- to "kill the Dalish."  Kill, and kill plural.  So if you don't know that you're going there to exterminate them, the dialogue makes no sense.  

What you know is that you're going to the camp with the intention of killing them all if Zathrian refuses to end the curse. This is what both the Lady and Swiftrunner ask before leading the final assault (after the initial assault which is stopped to talk to Zathrian).

Maybe it's because I don't take dialog options so literal at times, but the "Kill the elves" choice can mean "Let's force their hand by attacking their camp. If they still refuse to compromise, we kill them".

As Ian said, this is hardly the most rational thing a warden can do. It's a huge gambit given that you're effectively breaking the treaty and you don't know if the werewolves will pledge to you, but it doesn't necessarily have to be a "oh, let's kill the Dalish for the lulz", type of decision.

I will say that my only character who did this certainly had some nasty intentions when choosing this option. In her case you could certainly say it was an "evil" thing to do (a CE who was pissed off at the Dalish for lying to her and calling her a flat ear, but who also wanted to keep the descendants of rapists cursed for life). But it doesn't have to be the general rule for any other warden who choose this option.

But since I can already tell we're not gonna agree here, I'll just leave it at that.

[Moondoggie]

It's all subjective and a matter of opinion as to who to side with and why. First time i chose to end the curse then the next time i looked at it and i felt the Dalish clan to be quite arogant and bratty just expecting me to do all the work for them for the honour of their help. The lady of the Forrest however is an honourable and polite spirit who expects nothing from me. She even seems suprised that you'd go out your way to help them against the Dalish. So which would you rather work with? The honourable Warewolf clan who pledge an oath of alligence to you or the bratty "holier than thou" Dalish who thing they are the makers gift to the wardens and the wardens should do whatever they want.

[Addai]

Moondoggie wrote...

It's all subjective and a matter of opinion as to who to side with and why. First time i chose to end the curse then the next time i looked at it and i felt the Dalish clan to be quite arogant and bratty just expecting me to do all the work for them for the honour of their help. The lady of the Forrest however is an honourable and polite spirit who expects nothing from me. She even seems suprised that you'd go out your way to help them against the Dalish. So which would you rather work with? The honourable Warewolf clan who pledge an oath of alligence to you or the bratty "holier than thou" Dalish who thing they are the makers gift to the wardens and the wardens should do whatever they want.

The Lady wants you to end the curse and shows a strong commitment to non-violence in her "Lady" form.  So what you're essentially doing is persuading her to follow her beastly instincts.

And I have to say, slaughtering innocent people because they're "bratty" and you just don't like them, and because they ask you for help- which everybody and their brother in Ferelden and beyond does... well, I just don't get that.

You're also taking it upon yourself to overturn a treaty the Wardens and Dalish honored for centuries.  That's quite a bit of hubris and pretty bratty in itself.

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

The Lady wants you to end the curse and shows a strong commitment to non-violence in her "Lady" form.  So what you're essentially doing is persuading her to follow her beastly instincts.

True, but it's also painfully true that non-violence has gotten the Lady nothing for centuries.  It's a very reasonable argument that the only persuasion that Zathrien can understand is the pointy-end-of-stick variety.  Yes, with our advantage of 20/20 metagaming hindsight that turns out to be wrong (but even then violence and being faced with imminent death is required to break through Zathrien's hate), but there is no reasonable way our Warden could know that, and we do know that Zathrien won't listen to reason.   In this Swiftrunner is unfortunately quite right.

And I have to say, slaughtering innocent people because they're "bratty" and you just don't like them, and because they ask you for help- which everybody and their brother in Ferelden and beyond does... well, I just don't get that.

No.  Innocent people get slaughtered for the same reason they usually get slaughtered.  They are in the wrong place at the wrong time.  Zatherian is at least as much to blame as the Warden even in this one scene (play it out and you'll see.....Zatherian at ANY TIME could have ended the violence and the destruction of his clan simply by ending the curse.  His hate runs too deep, however.)

You're also taking it upon yourself to overturn a treaty the Wardens and Dalish honored for centuries.  That's quite a bit of hubris and pretty bratty in itself.

Bratty as in losing your temper and taking an extreme action?  I can't argue with that.  In fact, I fully aknowledge that it's the worst decision (in retrospect) you can make.  However, it's at least a reasonable position that Zathrien using you the way he does is the first to violate the treaty.  I admit that's high handed interpretation, but it's not completely in left field.

The point that some of us are saying is not that it's a warm and fuzzy thing to side with the werewolves, but you don't have to be Hannible Lecter Mark 2 to do so.

-Polaris

[Addai]

IanPolaris wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

The Lady wants you to end the curse and shows a strong commitment to non-violence in her "Lady" form.  So what you're essentially doing is persuading her to follow her beastly instincts.

True, but it's also painfully true that non-violence has gotten the Lady nothing for centuries.  It's a very reasonable argument that the only persuasion that Zathrien can understand is the pointy-end-of-stick variety.  Yes, with our advantage of 20/20 metagaming hindsight that turns out to be wrong (but even then violence and being faced with imminent death is required to break through Zathrien's hate), but there is no reasonable way our Warden could know that, and we do know that Zathrien won't listen to reason.   In this Swiftrunner is unfortunately quite right.

All of this would make sense if the dialogue were set up as:  "Let's go confront Zathrian now."  Instead it's set up as genocidal impulse.  You can argue that it's just poor wording and how it actually plays out is different, but how it starts is the Warden saying to a bunch of werewolves (who just tried very hard to kill you) and a spirit who is trying to reconcile the two sides "hey let's go kill all the elves."  It's the equivalent of fighting your way through the Ashes temple, getting to Kolgrim, and saying "hey let's go clear out Redcliffe."

Sorry, not convinced.