227 réponses à ce sujet

[Costin_Razvan]

Genocide? Seriously? You call the killing of a few hundred elves genocide. I am impressed by your hypocrisy then ( supporting Boudica and all ).



Or is it that genocide is justifiable depending on the situation. Bull**** in my eyes.



That said. Slaughtering the elves is not something I do from a moral perspective because political and military choices can NEVER be taken from a moral perspective ( and anyone who tells me otherwise is, bluntly, a bloody idiot ). It's about a pragmatic perspective.



When you find out Zathrian lied to you about everything that happened then all ties are off in my perspective. Then and there is the time to take a risk. All the choices presented in the situation have risks to them.



If you side with Zathrian he might just decide to screw you over. Political promises are worth less then a copper penny, and I know I can't trust him.



Ending the curse could mean that the elves refuse to aid you because of Zathrian's death.



Persuading the Werewolves may just mean they don't help you.



Each choice has a risk in itself. But I personally would rather not side with those who allowed Zathrian to extend the curse as he did ( and his clan DID know as mentioned by that elven hunter you meet after you finish the quest either way ), nor do I see the elves a military capable force, nor am I inclined to be played for as a fool.



Surprisingly my choice to slaughter the elves came on a Dalish PC. ( which was my second playthrough after my Dwarf noble ). 'Tis not that I hate the elves, but I am rather disgusted by what this specific clan did.

[Addai]

You should read the thread, Costin. I was saying that the only way it made sense to me was if you were roleplaying a genocidal hatred of elves and came to the Dalish camp intending to slaughter them but realized you needed backup.

Modifié par Addai67, 23 décembre 2010 - 04:19 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Addai67 wrote...

You should read the thread, Costin. I was saying that the only way it made sense to me was if you were roleplaying a genocidal hatred of elves and came to the Dalish camp intending to slaughter them but realized you needed backup.

And here I disagree. There can be many reasons to kill the elves, even "gasp" moral ones.

Weren't you the one who speaks of justice? Tell me what sort of justice is there when the elves responsible for what happened to the Werewolves are just allowed to walk away? 

Regardless of what you might think. The Elves knew what Zathrian did ( I can even fraps the moment in game where this is revealed ), and they did nothing to stop him. 

[IanPolaris]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

You should read the thread, Costin. I was saying that the only way it made sense to me was if you were roleplaying a genocidal hatred of elves and came to the Dalish camp intending to slaughter them but realized you needed backup.

And here I disagree. There can be many reasons to kill the elves, even "gasp" moral ones.

Weren't you the one who speaks of justice? Tell me what sort of justice is there when the elves responsible for what happened to the Werewolves are just allowed to walk away? 

Regardless of what you might think. The Elves knew what Zathrian did ( I can even fraps the moment in game where this is revealed ), and they did nothing to stop him. 

This is revealed explicitly when you are confronted in the forest by the wife (I forget her name off hand) of one of those slain by the werewolf if you return to the Brecillian Forest after you do the Dalish Quest.  Unless you saved Zathrien, she will be hostile to you as a default and want to attack you, but you can talk her down (using a persuade).  If you do, she will admit that there were old stories about Zatherian's crime (the curse) and that what you said matches those tails, will give you a small gift and leave.

-Polaris

[Addai]

Costin, should you just go raze a human village because humans raped and murdered Zathrian's children?

[Zy-El]

You have to remember that Zathrian is centuries old and he is their leader. The Dalish are not going to turn on their own leader, certainly not on the word of a shem whom they don't trust. I wish there had been the choice of confronting Zathrian with the truth witnessed by his clan. At that point, if the clan still sides with Zathrian, you have some justification to kill the complicit members of his clan - but not the innocent!!

To wipe out every man, woman and child in his clan is murder (not genocide unless you carry it out to all Dalish clans). Undoubtedly, there would be some who did not know of Zathrian's crime and certainly there would be children. There is no justification for murdering children - to do so is just plain EVIL!

So the Dalish knew about Zathrian's crime, who do they report it to? The humans? They would all be slaughtered out of turn. Do they report his crime to the Dalish High Council? No such authority exists. The Clans are wanderers.

Modifié par Zy-El, 23 décembre 2010 - 05:29 .

[IanPolaris]

Zy-El wrote...

You have to remember that Zathrian is centuries old and he is their leader. The Dalish are not going to turn on their own leader, certainly not on the word of a shem whom they don't trust. I wish there had been the choice of confronting Zathrian with the truth witnessed by his clan. At that point, if the clan still sides with Zathrian, you have some justification to kill the clan.

You do.  That persuade option is extremely misleading.  What happens if you pick the persuade option is the warden does exactly what you suggest.  He and the Lady confront Zathrien in front of his own clan and tell the whole truth, and Zathrien doesn't deny it.  Not once.

The clan backs him anyway.  Seriously, in that scene the Dalish come off in a really, really bad light (and Zathrien in particular does).

-Polaris

[Costin_Razvan]

Addai67 wrote...

Costin, should you just go raze a human village because humans raped and murdered Zathrian's children?

Speaks the one if favor of a warlord who did exactly the same thing you are telling here, and for EXACTLY the same reasons.

What happened to Zathrian's children was not of a nature where a whole community knew of it and did nothing to stop it. Those were just a few men.

What Zathrian did however was well known among his Dalish Clan which allowed the curse to continue without interfering. Thus they are just as responsible as he is for the suffering inflicted on those transformed into Werewolves even IF they did not like what he did.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 23 décembre 2010 - 05:43 .

[Addai]

Zy-El wrote...
To wipe out every man, woman and child in his clan is murder (not genocide unless you carry it out to all Dalish clans). Undoubtedly, there would be some who did not know of Zathrian's crime and certainly there would be children. There is no justification for murdering children - to do so is just plain EVIL!

Obviously I need to clarify this again- what I said was that you would have to have a genocical instinct towards elves to make that dialogue choice.  It's the only way it makes sense.

I did not say that what you are doing constitutes genocide.  Call it violent xenophobia if you prefer.

But in general I agree with you, of course.  And naturally people are inclined to keep the secrets of their own "tribe" versus the hated other.  Especially a paternalistic society like the elves', with strong group identification.

Modifié par Addai67, 23 décembre 2010 - 05:42 .

[Sueno]

Anyone else see the rape and murder of Zathrian's family as symbolically representing the rape and murder of his people? I saw Zathrian's anger as the anger of his people, not of an individual. They are a minoirty and like many minority groups when they are taken advantage of by the majority, nothing is resolved. Zathrian decided to take justice into his own hands. So the humans were turned into walking representations of their innerselves: monsters. When the elves began to get infected I saw it as their hatred beginning to turn them into what the humans had become due to their hatred. If anything, what I got from this plot is both parties needed to see past their hatred.

IanPolaris wrote...

You do.  That persuade option is
extremely misleading.  What happens if you pick the persuade option is
the warden does exactly what you suggest.  He and the Lady confront
Zathrien in front of his own clan and tell the whole truth, and Zathrien
doesn't deny it.  Not once.

The clan backs him anyway. 
Seriously, in that scene the Dalish come off in a really, really bad
light (and Zathrien in particular does).

-Polaris

Why are they seen in a bad light because they decide not to back up the humans who have been oppressing them? Is it not understandable why they would not be eager to run to the aid of humans?

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Costin, should you just go raze a human village because humans raped and murdered Zathrian's children?

Speaks the one if favor of a warlord who did exactly the same thing you are telling here.

What happened to Zathrian's children was not of a nature where a whole community knew of it and did nothing to stop it. Those were just a few men.

What Zathrian did however was well known among his Dalish Clan which allowed the curse to continue without interfering. Thus they are just as responsible as he is for the suffering inflicted on those transformed into Werewolves even IF they did not like what he did.

  You really know how to harp on an irrelevant point.  As long as you keep bringing up o/t topics, however, I never said I approved of Boudica's actions, just that I didn't feel sorry for the Romans who did the same thing and who were the colonial power.  And I am NOT arguing that you shouldn't kill the elves because you should feel sorry for them.  Rather that there's no coherent way to roleplay that choice unless your character is either batsh*t or violently hates elves.  (Edit:  If you want to say that your Warden considers himself engaged in a violent conflict with elves a la Boudica vs. the Romans and thus needs little or no provocation to slaughter Zathrian's clan wholesale, bully- you're saying the same thing that I am.)

There's no way the Warden can know that "the whole community" knows about Zathrian's secret until long after the fact.  The most you can say is that you suspect it, or that you know Sarel knows.  What about Cammen or Gheyna leads you to believe that they are harboring a dark secret about their elder's past?

Modifié par Addai67, 23 décembre 2010 - 05:51 .

[Costin_Razvan]

I never said I approved of Boudica's actions, just that I didn't feel sorry for the Romans who did the same thing and who were the colonial power.

So tell me then, why should I feel sorry for the elves for allowing Zathrian to do what he did? Why should have I any sort of pity for them?

There's no way the Warden can know that "the whole community" knows about Zathrian's secret until long after the fact. The most you can say is that you suspect it, or that you know Sarel knows. What about Cammen or Gheyna leads you to believe that they are harboring a dark secret about their elder's past?

I would point you to what Polaris said. The fact no elf, not one. Not Lanaya, Sorrel, the Blacksmith, Gheyna or Cammen tries to stop Zathrian from unnecessary bloodshed then well it speaks volumes about what they know or not.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 23 décembre 2010 - 05:52 .

[IanPolaris]

Sueno wrote...

Why are they seen in a bad light because they decide not to back up the humans who have been oppressing them? Is it not understandable why they would not be eager to run to the aid of humans?

I don't think we are talking about the same scene.  The scene I am talking about is the one at the edge of the Dalish Camp where the Lady of the Forest with Swiftrunner and your party confront Zathrien.  Zathrien starts with, "I knew it.  The Warden has betrayed us."  At which point the lady answers quickly, "No, it is you who betrayed them and your people."  (I am paraphrasing...I could get the script notes, but I know I am very close).

She then IN FRONT OF THE ENTIRE CLAN tells just how Zathrien is responsible for the curse that they suffer and begs, BEGS Zathrien to end it lest it destroy his own clan.

He refuses and his entire clan backs him up even after learning the truth.  Tells me all I want to know about the Dalish.

Mind you, I don't normally pick this option because it turns out to be the worst of all worlds in the long run, but it's completely understandable without being Hannibal Lector.

-Polaris

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I never said I approved of Boudica's actions, just that I didn't feel sorry for the Romans who did the same thing and who were the colonial power.

So tell me then, why should I feel sorry for the elves for allowing Zathrian to do what he did? Why should have I any sort of pity for them?

Never said you should.  If your PC regularly goes around slaughtering villages with impunity, then it makes perfect sense why you would roleplay doing the same here.  All I'm arguing- which you would know if you had actually read the thread- is that you can't roleplay this choice from a moderately sane and reasonable viewpoint.

I would point you to what Polaris said. The fact no elf, not one. Not Lanaya, Sorrel, the Blacksmith, Gheyna or Cammen tries to stop Zathrian from unnecessary bloodshed then well it speaks volumes about what they know or not.

Yes- and again, if you had actually read the discussion rather than barging in waving the Roman eagle- before completing Nature of the Beast there is no way your Warden can know that Lanaya or anyone but Sarel is aware of the curse being Zathrian's fault.  Unless you want to argue that it's a heinous crime for the Dalish to defend themselves from werewolf attack.

[Addai]

IanPolaris wrote...

She then IN FRONT OF THE ENTIRE CLAN tells just how Zathrien is responsible for the curse that they suffer and begs, BEGS Zathrien to end it lest it destroy his own clan.

He refuses and his entire clan backs him up even after learning the truth.  Tells me all I want to know about the Dalish.

Mind you, I don't normally pick this option because it turns out to be the worst of all worlds in the long run, but it's completely understandable without being Hannibal Lector.

-Polaris

You have to be Hannibal Lecter-ish or using metagame knowledge to even get to that point, so your argument really falls apart.

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...
Yes- and again, if you had actually read the discussion rather than barging in waving the Roman eagle- before completing Nature of the Beast there is no way your Warden can know that Lanaya or anyone but Sarel is aware of the curse being Zathrian's fault.  Unless you want to argue that it's a heinous crime for the Dalish to defend themselves from werewolf attack.

Um, Addai, if you talk with Lanaya completely, you can get a very strong notion that she knows something about the curse and Zathrien's role in it.  I admit it's subtle and quite implicit, but when you pass a persuade check, she talks briefly about how Zathrien lost his family a long time ago and the circumstances were horrific.  Also when you talk with Sarel, he and some of the hunters seem to strongly suspect that Zathrien isn't being straight with them (about some hunters turning already) and about how intelligent the wolves really are.

My point is this:  Pick that persuade option and then watch the cut-scene.  The Lady of the Forest gives, BEGS, Zathrian to end the curse and tells his entire clan then and there it's true source.  The clan helps Zathrian anyways....once that happens to my mind they are no longer innocents.

-Polaris

[Costin_Razvan]

All I'm arguing- which you would know if you had actually read the thread- is that you can't roleplay this choice from a moderately sane and reasonable viewpoint.

Actually I pretty much can. The Elves cannot be trusted. I need an army and I would rather take my chances on getting the Werewolves on my side then hoping the elves will keep their end of the deal after lying to me.



If that means slaughtering a few hundred elves, then so be it. I have a war to win.

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

You have to be Hannibal Lecter-ish or using metagame knowledge to even get to that point, so your argument really falls apart.

No you really do not.  You do not actually "SAY", blood, blood, blood, let's kill the Dalish, rah, rah, rah although I fully admit that's what the persuade snippet implies.  Whenever you see a [Persuade] "stuff", it should not be read as you are actually saying "stuff" verbatim but rather that you are convincing others through a bunch of dialog that is cut short to agree with you..leading to "stuff" conclusion.  In fact (which you'd know if you watched the cut-scene) all you are persuading the wolves to do is confront Zathrien in his camp and make it a stark choice for him:  The curse or his clan.  I hate appealing to bad writing because I think it's a cop-out, but the story narrative does tell us that the actual verbatim persuade option was simply badly written in this case.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

All I'm arguing- which you would know if you had actually read the thread- is that you can't roleplay this choice from a moderately sane and reasonable viewpoint.

Actually I pretty much can. The Elves cannot be trusted. I need an army and I would rather take my chances on getting the Werewolves on my side then hoping the elves will keep their end of the deal after lying to me.

If that means slaughtering a few hundred elves, then so be it. I have a war to win.

That's cold but totally justifiable especially for a grey warden.  I have bolded the key part that makes it worth risking the existing treaty.  Zathrien has proven that he can't be trusted which means my treaty is worth about as much as yesterday's toilet paper (at least that's a reasonable read), and you can get a promise of the Lady's support for your war before you leave and she has done nothing to think that she can not be trusted.

-Polaris

[Zy-El]

IanPolaris wrote...
Um, Addai, if you talk with Lanaya completely, you can get a very strong notion that she knows something about the curse and Zathrien's role in it.  I admit it's subtle and quite implicit, but when you pass a persuade check, she talks briefly about how Zathrien lost his family a long time ago and the circumstances were horrific.  Also when you talk with Sarel, he and some of the hunters seem to strongly suspect that Zathrien isn't being straight with them (about some hunters turning already) and about how intelligent the wolves really are.

My point is this:  Pick that persuade option and then watch the cut-scene.  The Lady of the Forest gives, BEGS, Zathrian to end the curse and tells his entire clan then and there it's true source.  The clan helps Zathrian anyways....once that happens to my mind they are no longer innocents.
-Polaris

Thank you for detailing this, Polaris.  I've never chosen to side with the Werewolves and have never gotten to this point.

What about the Dalish children?  Does the Warden kill them too?  For me, that is most disturbing.  I was disgusted when they did it in Star Wars (3rd movie) where the Jedi children were murdered.

As far as choosing sides is concerned, I think that letting die for his crimes (by his hand or mine) without the clan knowing is the best option for the Warden's purposes.

Modifié par Zy-El, 23 décembre 2010 - 06:25 .

[Addai]

IanPolaris wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Yes- and again, if you had actually read the discussion rather than barging in waving the Roman eagle- before completing Nature of the Beast there is no way your Warden can know that Lanaya or anyone but Sarel is aware of the curse being Zathrian's fault.  Unless you want to argue that it's a heinous crime for the Dalish to defend themselves from werewolf attack.

Um, Addai, if you talk with Lanaya completely, you can get a very strong notion that she knows something about the curse and Zathrien's role in it.  I admit it's subtle and quite implicit, but when you pass a persuade check, she talks briefly about how Zathrien lost his family a long time ago and the circumstances were horrific.  Also when you talk with Sarel, he and some of the hunters seem to strongly suspect that Zathrien isn't being straight with them (about some hunters turning already) and about how intelligent the wolves really are.

My point is this:  Pick that persuade option and then watch the cut-scene.  The Lady of the Forest gives, BEGS, Zathrian to end the curse and tells his entire clan then and there it's true source.  The clan helps Zathrian anyways....once that happens to my mind they are no longer innocents.

-Polaris

Because Zathrian's family died in horrible fashion, that means Zathrian used blood magic to make the werewolves?  That's quite an intuitive leap.  And of course it's obvious that people don't think Zathrian is being straight with them about everything, but that only underlines their innocence.

Only when I was playing a Dalish blood mage (via a mod) did I feel I had a good enough roleplay basis to guess the truth.  I figured she would recognize Zathrian as an abomination and have enough background inkling of dark things done in the elves' past that she would see through it.  But obviously she also would not hold the entire clan mortally responsible, and she ended the curse.

Oh, and I don't need to see the cutscene.  That's just metagame knowledge and it changes nothing about my argument.

Modifié par Addai67, 23 décembre 2010 - 06:18 .

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

All I'm arguing- which you would know if you had actually read the thread- is that you can't roleplay this choice from a moderately sane and reasonable viewpoint.

Actually I pretty much can. The Elves cannot be trusted. I need an army and I would rather take my chances on getting the Werewolves on my side then hoping the elves will keep their end of the deal after lying to me.

If that means slaughtering a few hundred elves, then so be it. I have a war to win.

Sure, you could do that.  You have just killed most of Swiftrunner's band and you have no idea if they will help you against the Blight- you don't even ask them to when you propose killing the elves, so I guess you're just a sunny optimist.  And you're likely forfeiting an alliance the Wardens have maintained for centuries with all Dalish elves, if anyone finds out what you did.

In which case, you're roleplaying a very stupid Warden.  Which I'll accept as a stand-in for homicidal maniac, I guess.  Or you could roleplay that you intend to spread the curse to other people (humans, since it appears to be fatal to elves) to create a larger werewolf army that will be under your control.  Which again puts us in Hannibal Lecter territory.

[Costin_Razvan]

What about the Dalish children? Does the Warden kill them too? For me, that is most disturbing. I was disgusted when they did it in Star Wars (3rd movie) where the Jedi children were murdered.

Do you presume wars only involve a fight between fully grown adults who fight with honor? It does not. Non-combatants often perish, and in great numbers too.

But no, The Warden does not kill any children. 

Oh, and I don't need to see the cutscene. That's just metagame knowledge and it changes nothing about my argument.

Coming from someone with a very strong pro-elf PoV your argument is invalid to me. And before you bark: I do not hate the elves. The fact I played one as my 2nd cannon was not just for the sake of lulz, and I quite like her as a character.

 Sure, you could do that.  You have just killed most of Swiftrunner's band and you have no idea if they will help you against the Blight- you don't even ask them to when you propose killing the elves, so I guess you're just a sunny optimist.  And you're likely forfeiting an alliance the Wardens have maintained for centuries with all Dalish elves, if anyone finds out what you did.

A piece of paper that no one in game actually cares about is not something that I personally care about. Everyone who helps you in game does so for their own reasons and not compelled by some treaty. You are a blind optimist if you make the treaty means anything at all.

As for Swiftrunner's Band. There are still more Werewolves in game left at that point to outnumber the elves, and let's not forget those that will turn. 

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 23 décembre 2010 - 06:27 .

[IanPolaris]

Zy-El wrote...

What about the Dalish children?  Does the Warden kill them too?  For me, that is most disturbing.  I was disgusted when they did it in Star Wars (3rd movie) where the Jedi children were murdered.

In that battlescene I don't remember any Dalish child combatants so I am guessing (but it's only my guess) that they did the sane thing and ran away from a battleground just as fast as they could.

That said, child or not, if someone attacks me, they've signed their death warrent.

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...
but it's completely understandable without being Hannibal Lector.
-Polaris

Elven shish kebab is reason enough.