227 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Oh, and I don't need to see the cutscene. That's just metagame knowledge and it changes nothing about my argument.

Coming from someone with a very strong pro-elf PoV your argument is invalid to me. And before you bark: I do not hate the elves. The fact I played one as my 2nd cannon was not just for the sake of lulz, and I quite like her as a character.

LOL  So you're dismissing my argument out of hand, even though you haven't yet shown any indication that you even are following what I've said, because you know I like elves.

Fair enough.  No need for me to respond any further to your arguments.

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Yes- and again, if you had actually read the discussion rather than barging in waving the Roman eagle- before completing Nature of the Beast there is no way your Warden can know that Lanaya or anyone but Sarel is aware of the curse being Zathrian's fault.  Unless you want to argue that it's a heinous crime for the Dalish to defend themselves from werewolf attack.

Um, Addai, if you talk with Lanaya completely, you can get a very strong notion that she knows something about the curse and Zathrien's role in it.  I admit it's subtle and quite implicit, but when you pass a persuade check, she talks briefly about how Zathrien lost his family a long time ago and the circumstances were horrific.  Also when you talk with Sarel, he and some of the hunters seem to strongly suspect that Zathrien isn't being straight with them (about some hunters turning already) and about how intelligent the wolves really are.

My point is this:  Pick that persuade option and then watch the cut-scene.  The Lady of the Forest gives, BEGS, Zathrian to end the curse and tells his entire clan then and there it's true source.  The clan helps Zathrian anyways....once that happens to my mind they are no longer innocents.

-Polaris

Because Zathrian's family died in horrible fashion, that means Zathrian used blood magic to make the werewolves?  That's quite an intuitive leap.  And of course it's obvious that people don't think Zathrian is being straight with them about everything, but that only underlines their innocence.

When you combine what Sarel and the hunters said with what Lanaya has said, I believe you do have just enough to make the intiutive leap that Zathrian isn't being straight with you about the curse and that it likely relates to his family.  You can also include Zathrian's refusal to talk about the origin of the curse even though under normal circumstances, knowing the origin might be helpful and fighting it.

I agree it's not obvious, but if your warden is (for example) and experienced bloodmage by the time you do this (and my wardens often are), you'd have enough personal knowledge of both blood mage and arcana to make the connection think.

Only when I was playing a Dalish blood mage (via a mod) did I feel I had a good enough roleplay basis to guess the truth.  I figured she would recognize Zathrian as an abomination and have enough background inkling of dark things done in the elves' past that she would see through it.  But obviously she also would not hold the entire clan mortally responsible, and she ended the curse.

You have just admitted that their is enough evidence to at least hypothetically make the connection.

Oh, and I don't need to see the cutscene.  That's just metagame knowledge and it changes nothing about my argument.

Au Contraire.  I believe you do need to see that cutscene at least once before we continue because it's a game changer.  If you see it and still think siding with the wolfies is always Hannabal Lecterish, then so be it.  You can find it on You-Tube if you don't want to play it yourself.

-Polaris

[Costin_Razvan]

LOL So you're dismissing my argument out of hand, even though you haven't yet shown any indication that you even are following what I've said, because you know I like elves.



Fair enough. No need for me to respond any further to your arguments.

I am dismissing the argument of a blind idealist who has a Harrowmont PoV on politics and no real knowledge of warfare. I am dismissing the argument of someone who has shown in the past she is perfectly willing to argue for the cause of elven terrorists.



So yes. Good day.

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Oh, and I don't need to see the cutscene. That's just metagame knowledge and it changes nothing about my argument.

Coming from someone with a very strong pro-elf PoV your argument is invalid to me. And before you bark: I do not hate the elves. The fact I played one as my 2nd cannon was not just for the sake of lulz, and I quite like her as a character.

LOL  So you're dismissing my argument out of hand, even though you haven't yet shown any indication that you even are following what I've said, because you know I like elves.

Fair enough.  No need for me to respond any further to your arguments.

I am dissapionted myself in that you refuse to even look at the evidence within the game (the Dalish Camp cut-scene). 

-Polaris

[Addai]

IanPolaris wrote...
You have just admitted that their is enough evidence to at least hypothetically make the connection.

Only a character that is not available in the vanilla game, a person who is basically a Lanaya.

And no, I don't admit any metagame knowledge into the argument.  I'm saying that there is no roleplay basis.  If you want to argue a metagame basis, that's fine, but it's not what I'm saying.

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
I am dismissing the argument of a blind idealist who has a Harrowmont PoV on politics and no real knowledge of warfare. I am dismissing the argument of someone who has shown in the past she is perfectly willing to argue for the cause of elven terrorists.

So yes. Good day.

Heh, now you're using the fact that I don't care enough about The Witcher to replay it just as you demand the game be played to as basis for wholesale ad hominem.  LOL  This exchange has been entertaining, at least.

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
You have just admitted that their is enough evidence to at least hypothetically make the connection.

Only a character that is not available in the vanilla game, a person who is basically a Lanaya.

And no, I don't admit any metagame knowledge into the argument.  I'm saying that there is no roleplay basis.  If you want to argue a metagame basis, that's fine, but it's not what I'm saying.

Either there might be enough information or there might not be.  A dalish character would have heard the dark tales.  If said character had already done the tower and/or got a grounding in magical theory and practice (Morrigan is suprisingly good at this and if anyone can....and does....see through Zathrien it's Morrigan), then you do have just enough to make the connection.  Likewise, if you are an accomplished bloodmage yourself, and you talk with the Dalish including Sarel and Lanaya, you can possibly make the connection assuming you don't buy (and there is no reason you should) that Zathrian has "actually" rediscovered the immortality of his ancestors.  If you don't buy that, the only other reasonable way for Zathrien to live that long is.....abomination.  (Again Morrigan sees right through him on this)

As for the persuade option, I am not asking you to metagame.  I am asking you not to read any persuade option as the "literal words carved in stone" that you say.  They aren't.  No option that is preceded with [persuade], [intimidate], [statistic] are ever the exact verbage that is used.  It's supposed to be a description (and in this case it's a horribly bad description) of what it is you are saying.

The fact you won't even look at evidence that might change your mind is very dissapointing.

-Polaris

Edit:  If you talk about roleplay basis and accept that the [persuade] option isn't the literal verbage that is used (it never is), then a lot of us have presented perfectly valid roleplay reasons that aren't mindnumbingly evil or stupid to side with the wolves.  Even the cold, "the wolves are more useful and the elves lied to me" is perfectly valid and while not-good, is very grey wardenish and certainly not maniacally evil.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 23 décembre 2010 - 06:43 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Heh, now you're using the fact that I don't care enough about The Witcher to replay it just as you demand the game be played to as basis for wholesale ad hominem. LOL This exchange has been entertaining, at least.

Or rather that you wholly supported those that can be called terrorists ( and for good reason ), or maybe that in every single argument on this forum that has been made for or against elves has seen you supporting them.

Don't pretend you are not biased in favor of the elves.

 Even the cold, "the wolves are more useful and the elves lied to me" is perfectly valid and while not-good, is very grey wardenish and certainly not maniacally evil.

Exactly.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 23 décembre 2010 - 06:44 .

[IanPolaris]

Costin,



For the record I tend to like elven characters myself, but I try not to kid myself about the elven place in the world of Thedas. Specifically I doubt there will BE any elves in about 500 years or so.



-Polaris

[Costin_Razvan]

IanPolaris wrote...

Costin,

For the record I tend to like elven characters myself, but I try not to kid myself about the elven place in the world of Thedas. Specifically I doubt there will BE any elves in about 500 years or so.

I would be perfectly happy if I could form an elven nation around Ostagar and solve the City Elf issue so that human and Dalish relations could be solved.

As I mentioned. I do not hate elves as a whole ( I did play and Elven character for over two years in WoW ) but rather Zathrian's clan in the game, and the attitude of most of the city elves.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 23 décembre 2010 - 06:53 .

[Zy-El]

How would you roleplay this situation if you were Dalish? Or if you were a City Elf (having been exposed to Humans and the daily oppression of Elves)?

[Addai]

IanPolaris wrote...
Either there might be enough information or there might not be.  A dalish character would have heard the dark tales. 

Not likely.  Keeper's knowledge was secret even among the Dalish population in general.  The PC is a keeper's child, but without magic would not have been apprenticed as such.  I roleplayed my mage PC, however, as having gotten such training and thus being inducted into keeper's knowledge.  There is a reason for why Lanaya had such trouble becoming accepted as first.

But are you really going to argue that a Dalish PC would slaughter Zathrian's clan wholesale?

A Circle mage PC might be privy to the right information, especially after Witch Hunt and encountering the pimply teenage human mage who knows all about the eluvians.  I guess that could work.

As for the persuade option, I am not asking you to metagame.  I am asking you not to read any persuade option as the "literal words carved in stone" that you say.  They aren't.  No option that is preceded with [persuade], [intimidate], [statistic] are ever the exact verbage that is used.  It's supposed to be a description (and in this case it's a horribly bad description) of what it is you are saying.

The fact you won't even look at evidence that might change your mind is very dissapointing.

I'm not saying the cutscene is not epic or illuminating.  If you and Costin want to discuss how badly the Dalish suck, that's fine.  It's what he's accusing me of doing, and it's ironic that the both of you keep falling back on it.  I in fact take the view of Thedas elves that they've been involved in some very dark things and engaged in a long cover-up of which Zathrian's is only a microcosm.  But all that is irrelevant when it comes to RP'ing even a pragmatic Warden (and I usually do roleplay pragmatic characters).  The arguments for defiling the ashes or saving the Anvil or killing Isolde or burning Amaranthine, I buy all of those.  Don't buy this, except as you say that the whole dialogue setup is poorly written.  The one time I did choose that line (because I wanted to hear Zevran's defense), the only way I could justify it was that my Warden was actually proposing to kill Zathrian alone.

Modifié par Addai67, 23 décembre 2010 - 07:01 .

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Or rather that you wholly supported those that can be called terrorists ( and for good reason ), or maybe that in every single argument on this forum that has been made for or against elves has seen you supporting them.

To refresh your memory, I agreed with you about the Scoia'tel but didn't care enough about the game to replay on the Witcher path.

If you're going to ad hominem, at least get it straight.

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Either there might be enough information or there might not be.  A dalish character would have heard the dark tales. 

Not likely.  Keeper's knowledge was secret even among the Dalish population in general.  The PC is a keeper's child, but without magic would not have been apprenticed as such.  I roleplayed my mage PC, however, as having gotten such training and thus being inducted into keeper's knowledge.  There is a reason for why Lanaya had such trouble becoming accepted as first.

But are you really going to argue that a Dalish PC would slaughter Zathrian's clan wholesale?

Change the phraseology and I am quite prepared to argue that point.  As for the first point, it's not apparently secret keeper knowledge.  I know this because if you return to the Brecilian forest later, you will be confronted by a Dalish group led by a HUNTER who is the wife of one of those slain.  She will start out obviously hostile to you (esp if you killed Zathrien's clan) but if you click on the persuade option and explain that Zathrien brought it on himself with his blood magic she will admit that she has heard of the old dark tales that colloborate your story.

That tells me that at least some of what Zathrien did has made it into the general Dalish mythology and that means your Dalish PC might have heard it.

Also the Dalish PC isn't slaughtering Zathrien's clan. He's trying to force Zathrien by the point of a sword if necessary to do the right thing and save his clan by ending the curse.  Zathrien refuses and by doing so condems himself AND HIS CLAN FOLLOWS HIM INTO DEATH.  At that point they are no longer innocent bystanders since they now know truth and do nothing about it.

A Circle mage PC might be privy to the right information, especially after Witch Hunt and encountering the pimply teenage human mage who knows all about the eluvians.  I guess that could work.

Or you might have read the books yourself or otherwise have heard of it.  The Circle libraries are impressive.

As for the persuade option, I am not asking you to metagame.  I am asking you not to read any persuade option as the "literal words carved in stone" that you say.  They aren't.  No option that is preceded with [persuade], [intimidate], [statistic] are ever the exact verbage that is used.  It's supposed to be a description (and in this case it's a horribly bad description) of what it is you are saying.

The fact you won't even look at evidence that might change your mind is very dissapointing.

I'm not saying the cutscene is not epic or illuminating.  If you and Costin want to discuss how badly the Dalish suck, that's fine.  It's what he's accusing me of doing, and it's ironic that the both of you keep falling back on it.  I in fact take the view of Thedas elves that they've been involved in some very dark things and engaged in a long cover-up of which Zathrian's is only a microcosm.  But all that is irrelevant when it comes to RP'ing even a pragmatic Warden (and I usually do roleplay pragmatic characters).  The arguments for defiling the ashes or saving the Anvil or killing Isolde or burning Amaranthine, I buy all of those.  Don't buy this, except as you say that the whole dialogue setup is poorly written.  The one time I did choose that line (because I wanted to hear Zevran's defense), the only way I could justify it was that my Warden was actually proposing to kill Zathrian alone.

I think that 'suck' is putting the wrong light on it.  I think the cutscene is illuminating and it is, and it doesn't do the Dalish or especially Zathrian any favors...and should be seen by everyone here at least once.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Zy-El wrote...

How would you roleplay this situation if you were Dalish? Or if you were a City Elf (having been exposed to Humans and the daily oppression of Elves)?

That depends on a lot of factors.  The Dalish treat a City Elf almost worse than they treat a human....worse in some respects (including being openly called a flat-ear) given that they are fellow elves.  I can easily see a city elf siding with the wolves just from spite alone.  Near as I can tell, only Elven Mages and Dalish are treated with anything approaching politness and respect in the Dalish camp.

-Polaris

[Addai]

The hunter you encounter knows something is up with Zathrian, but that is because she is part of his clan. It's not indication of secret keeper's knowledge. Put it this way: I know some Dalish fans who roleplay not accepting Velanna into the Wardens because it would risk exposing keeper knowledge to the Wardens. The secrecy around the keepers is a big deal. And again, all this assumes that a Dalish PC, even if they knew, would slaughter an entire clan out of petty retribution.



I suppose you could argue that a city elf, Cousland, or dwarf got access to this obscure, secret arcane knowledge that would make them experts in the Dalish and made several intuitive leaps in the Dalish camp... anything is possible, I guess. But we are stretching the implausible further and further.

[Quill74Pen]

IanPolaris wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Yes- and again, if you had actually read the discussion rather than barging in waving the Roman eagle- before completing Nature of the Beast there is no way your Warden can know that Lanaya or anyone but Sarel is aware of the curse being Zathrian's fault.  Unless you want to argue that it's a heinous crime for the Dalish to defend themselves from werewolf attack.

Um, Addai, if you talk with Lanaya completely, you can get a very strong notion that she knows something about the curse and Zathrien's role in it.  I admit it's subtle and quite implicit, but when you pass a persuade check, she talks briefly about how Zathrien lost his family a long time ago and the circumstances were horrific.  Also when you talk with Sarel, he and some of the hunters seem to strongly suspect that Zathrien isn't being straight with them (about some hunters turning already) and about how intelligent the wolves really are.

My point is this:  Pick that persuade option and then watch the cut-scene.  The Lady of the Forest gives, BEGS, Zathrian to end the curse and tells his entire clan then and there it's true source.  The clan helps Zathrian anyways....once that happens to my mind they are no longer innocents.

-Polaris

Hmm. I wonder if Zathrian employed the use of blood magic to dominate their wills and, thus, control them? After all, the guy was centuries old ... more than enough time to devolve into such tactics as part of his campaign to extend his life, no matter the cost.

Quill74Pen

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

The hunter you encounter knows something is up with Zathrian, but that is because she is part of his clan. It's not indication of secret keeper's knowledge. Put it this way: I know some Dalish fans who roleplay not accepting Velanna into the Wardens because it would risk exposing keeper knowledge to the Wardens. The secrecy around the keepers is a big deal. And again, all this assumes that a Dalish PC, even if they knew, would slaughter an entire clan out of petty retribution.

What, and there have never been marriages between clans, hunters leaving one clan to go to another, or even simple mingling during all those six centuries.  If you are a Dalish PC, most of the main older characters KNOW you personally and definately know your father who was also a keeper personally.  Therefore if the information was known to a simple hunter from Zathrien's clan, there is every reason to think it might be known by your PC (especially since your PC is the son or daughter of a keeper).  So obviously if there is secret keeper knowledge, this isn't it (or if it was it got leaked).  Also there are all sorts of examples of keeper knowledge getting leaked.  For heaven's sake you can BUY A BOOK (in DAA) that lets you become a keeper-mage.

As for why a Dalish would do that, most Dalish put their clan first and foremost, and Zathrien's risking of his entire clan just for his own revenge would sit badly with many Dalish.  Very badly.  Thus I could easily see the reasoning as follows:  I know I can't trust Zathrien on this, and he's already put his own clan at risk.  Fine.  Make it explicit.  Make him choose in front of his own clan, the ending the curse and thus securing his clan, or his own death and the possible death of his entire clan.  A reasonable Dalish  might think that faced with this a responsible keeper would back down and sacrifice for the clan.

Zathrien does not do this, and the clan does nothing to stop Zathrien and in fact helps him.  At that point they share in Zathrien's guilt.

See that wasn't so hard even for a Dalish PC.

I suppose you could argue that a city elf, Cousland, or dwarf got access to this obscure, secret arcane knowledge that would make them experts in the Dalish and made several intuitive leaps in the Dalish camp... anything is possible, I guess. But we are stretching the implausible further and further.

All I am saying is that for some wardens (admittedly some more than others), it's not an implausible leap to make.  I don't have to appeal to this for a non-evil lulz character to side with the wolves either, but it does make the point even stronger.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Quill74Pen wrote...

Hmm. I wonder if Zathrian employed the use of blood magic to dominate their wills and, thus, control them? After all, the guy was centuries old ... more than enough time to devolve into such tactics as part of his campaign to extend his life, no matter the cost.

Quill74Pen

Interesting.  That possibility hadn't occured to me and it should have.  Unfortunately the only way I know to break that sort of bloodmagic domination is to kill the subject (see Templar with Desire demon in tower)...so I'm afraid that won't help the clan very much.

-Polaris

[Zjarcal]

Zy-El wrote...

How would you roleplay this situation if you were Dalish? Or if you were a City Elf (having been exposed to Humans and the daily oppression of Elves)?

The only one of my characters who sided with the werewolves was a City Elf. However, I am not even going to attempt to defend her actions. She did it to to screw BOTH sides. She was a bit (as Addai says) batsh!t crazy.

I have never actually roleplayed a character who sides with the werewolves for the reasons I was defending as not being "batsh!t crazy reasons".

I don't think I ever will play such a character either, but since I once made the mistake of assuming that there was no logical reason to justify certain roleplaying decisions (killing Morrigan in WH for example, which lead to an interesting and constructive argument with Phaonica), I now always try to come up with logical ways a character could decide on some of the more "stupid evil" choices.

Oh, for the record, there are no children in the camp at the moment of the attack. Of course, this was probably done to avoid any controversy about murdering children. Logically, they should be in there.

[IanPolaris]

Given the tense situation, I suspect the children were told to run for their lives or did so on their own. At least that's the explaination that makes sense to me.



-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Zjarcal,



Oh out of dozens of characters, I've only sided with the wolves all of three times because I do think it's easily the darkest of the three choices and the least likely to have a good outcome (even being in character) both in the immediate and longterm future. However, having done it, and looking at the overall evidence, you don't have to be a badsh!t crazy psychopath to choose that option and this is where I dissent from Addai.



-Polaris

[Zjarcal]

IanPolaris wrote...
However, having done it, and looking at the overall evidence, you don't have to be a badsh!t crazy psychopath to choose that option and this is where I dissent from Addai.

-Polaris

I agree, although that particular character of mine was a bit batsh!t crazy (you can read her reasoning here). She definitely had a lot of issues and emotional scars.

But you're right, you don't have to be a psycopath or carry a genocidal purpose against the elves to come up with a logical reason to make this choice.

[Xilizhra]

Generally speaking, those who do evil don't tend to think of their own actions as being such. The werewolf decision may be pragmatic, but is evil regardless.

[Costin_Razvan]

Zy-El wrote...

How would you roleplay this situation if you were Dalish? Or if you were a City Elf (having been exposed to Humans and the daily oppression of Elves)?

I did make that choice on a Dalish Elf.  She was quite disgusted by what her fellow elves had done and showed them no mercy. In her mind she saw the entire clan as responsible for what had happened towards the Werewolves.

That and she was quite a pragmatic woman who sided with the Templars and suggested the mages be imprisoned and who also saw the Werewolves as being far stronger then elves in a pitched battle.

 Generally speaking, those who do evil don't tend to think of their own actions as being such. The werewolf decision may be pragmatic, but is evil regardless.

Right, speaks the one who would side with Zathrian.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 23 décembre 2010 - 07:49 .