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[Addai]

IanPolaris wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

LOL- I'm a hypocrite because I misunderstood your argument? Ok, whatever.  If you had said from the beginning that you were using metagame information, there would be half a thread less posting.  You were insisting that you didn't need metagaming.

You don't.  You've agreed with at least one possibility that didn't involve an evil warden yourself, so I think I've pretty much shown that.  However, your stance on persuade checks this entire thread IS hypocritical given how you handle Alstair.  This is not meant to insult.  Just a statement that you are using a double standard.

I gave an example that's not possible to get in the vanilla game, and who even when knowing the truth wouldn't have killed the entire clan.  So IOW no, I don't really see how a non-evil Warden could take that route.

As for Alistair hardening, I freely admit I metagame it and don't even bat an eyelash because I dislike the hardening mechanic.  If you admit that you metagame the Dalish thing, that's copacetic and there's nothing else to discuss.

Not really.  Otherwise the persuade check on Zev would make no sense, and the literally interpreation is counter-indicated almost everywhere else in the game.

-Polaris

You're Persuading Zevran to slaughter the Dalish even though he doesn't want to, just as you have to Persuade him to slaughter the mages even though he thinks it's a punk move.  If all you're doing is suggesting a strongly worded discussion, I highly doubt Zevran would get sadface and start talking about his dead mother.

As for what Swiftrunner says AFTER you propose to "kill!  kill them all!", that again is metagame.  At the point that you suggest killing the elves, that's your Warden offering a solution even more bloodthirsty than the Lady's desperate gambit of spreading the curse.

Now, how this whole setup could have been done to make it an actual choice is if the Warden first makes a bargain with Swiftrunner to get the werewolves' help against the darkspawn.  This is assuming that there are a lot more werewolves than just the few left with Swiftrunner after you killed a lot of them.  That would actually be an interesting game choice.  According to what Maric tells Loghain in TST, legend has it that werewolves once nearly wiped out the entire population of Ferelden and that that's why Fereldans keep dogs.  What you would essentially be doing is deciding to not only forfeit the Warden treaty with the Dalish, but to risk the werewolf contagion spreading into the general human population and creating a race even worse than the darkspawn (especially since the Lady is a local spirit and those new werewolves would not be under her sway).  If you felt Zathrian's clan were unstable allies, though, or if you decided the elves are too weak to fight, you might actually make such a Faustian bargain without being batsh*t.  Maybe you would figure all the werewolves would be killed in the Blight or you could kill off any survivors.

Modifié par Addai67, 23 décembre 2010 - 11:51 .

[ejoslin]

The actual dialogs -- my opinion out entirely because i swear I must be misunderstanding the disagreement...

Here's the first persuade check:

Warden: (persuade) I have another plan. Kill the elves. Kill Zathrian.
Swiftrunner: (if passed) I like this plan. Hrrr. (perking up, bloodthirsty)
Lady: And you would... help us in this? You would attack the Dalish? (she is reluctant to consider this, and the idea makes her a bit sad even)

Warden: The Grey Wardens need allies. I'll take you over the elves.
swiftrunner: Then we attack! They are weak with the curse... let us leave him no choice but to break it! Break it or die!! (thrilled, his bloodlust should come through here -- their deaths would be the preferred outcome)

This actually does not negate the earlier part of the conversation, however.  You also, if going this way, don't get the chance for Zathrien to break the curse.  You just go up and attack.

then it ends with this:

Lady: So be it. Come... gather the others. Tonight we go into battle. (said with a sigh of resignation, but "tonight we go into battle" should be said with firm resolution)

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 décembre 2010 - 01:00 .

[Zjarcal]

No one is arguing what the line says explicitly (and what it means to everyone involved). What some of use were suggesting was to not the take the dialog literally, imagining that you say something along the lines of "let's expose Zathrian in his camp and force his hand" or something to that avail.



I know that the reactions of Swiftrunner and the Lady would still be the same (as if you had suggested killing the elves outright), but at least I'm willing to roleplay the scene a bit differently. Considering the Lady and Swiftrunner agree to a plan of killing the elves, it's not illogical to think they would accept a plan were you're going to try to force the issue by threating to kill all the elves if Zathrian doesn't lift the curse.



Now I know, not everyone accepts this kind of thing, where a player doesn't take a dialog choice literally (regardless of the NPCs reaction), but that's what I was arguing for (a few pages back) when saying that siding with the werewolves isn't NECESSARILY "stupid evil". If someone doesn't want to accept this excuse, that's fine.



And since Addai said that she accepts that if you're going to handwave here (just as she handwaves during the Alistair hardening convo), you're not necessarily a genocidal "stupid evil" character, I think we're somewhat in agreement.

[ejoslin]

Zjarcal wrote...

No one is arguing what the line says explicitly (and what it means to everyone involved). What some of use were suggesting was to not the take the dialog literally, imagining that you say something along the lines of "let's expose Zathrian in his camp and force his hand" or something to that avail.

I know that the reactions of Swiftrunner and the Lady would still be the same (as if you had suggested killing the elves outright), but at least I'm willing to roleplay the scene a bit differently. Considering the Lady and Swiftrunner agree to a plan of killing the elves, it's not illogical to think they would accept a plan were you're going to try to force the issue by threating to kill all the elves if Zathrian doesn't lift the curse.

Now I know, not everyone accepts this kind of thing, where a player doesn't take a dialog choice literally (regardless of the NPCs reaction), but that's what I was arguing for (a few pages back) when saying that siding with the werewolves isn't NECESSARILY "stupid evil". If someone doesn't want to accept this excuse, that's fine.

And since Addai said that she accepts that if you're going to handwave here (just as she handwaves during the Alistair hardening convo), you're not necessarily a genocidal "stupid evil" character, I think we're somewhat in agreement.

The problem is, both the Lady, and Zevran if he's in the party, make the intentions VERY clear.  She double checks that you really mean you're willing to attack the Dalish.  Zevran also makes it clear (though of course, he may not be in the party) and he spells it out even more clearly, using the word "slaughter."

Edit: personally I don't care how people roleplay and whatnot -- you should get enjoyment from the game however you can, and interpret it as you see fit.  I only mind if people handwave what is in the game and then argue that their interpretations are the correct ones, even with a lot of in-game evidence that it is not.

even then, I don't care  But I do post the dialog!

Edit: here's what Zevran says

Zevran: Are you truly going to do this? Slaughter the Dalish? (uneasy)
Warden: Yes, and you are going to help.
Zevran: My mother was Dalish. Or so I'm told. I hold no allegiance for them, but this... does not sit well with me. Do not do this thing, I beg you. (uneasy, he's not one to take the moral stance very often)
Warden: This is the best way. Trust me. (persuade check)

passed
Zevran: Perhaps you are right. I should not have mentioned it. (glum)

failed
Zevran: How is this the best way? You would punish the Dalish for something Zathrian did? (slightly angry)

Warden: The werewolves will make better allies.
Zevran: So it is to be a Grey Warden sacrifice. I see. (icy)

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 décembre 2010 - 01:07 .

[Zjarcal]

Yes, and as I said in my post, I'm willing to imagine that the situation goes differently. Assuming you don't take Zevran with you to that section, it's perfectly feasible to imagine a different situation were the Lady agrees to your plan of threatening to kill everyone if Zathrian refuses to lift the curse.

I know that the game doesn't allow you to alter the reactions of NPCs to whatever you imagine you're saying, but I'm perfectly willing to use my imagination on those situations. And like I said, if others aren't willing to do so, that's fine.

And I'll say once again, that I haven't actually done this with any of my PCs. My one warden who sided with the werewolves did intend to kill the Dalish (and keep the werewolves cursed).

EDIT: Just read your edit. I'm certainly not arguing that my interpretation is the "correct" one. What I was doing was defending the idea that a warden could choose to side with the werewolves without being a "crazy genocidal stupid evil" warden.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 24 décembre 2010 - 01:08 .

[IanPolaris]

ejoslin wrote...

The actual dialogs -- my opinion out entirely because i swear I must be misunderstanding the disagreement...

Here's the first persuade check:

Warden: (persuade) I have another plan. Kill the elves. Kill Zathrian.
Swiftrunner: (if passed) I like this plan. Hrrr. (perking up, bloodthirsty)
Lady: And you would... help us in this? You would attack the Dalish? (she is reluctant to consider this, and the idea makes her a bit sad even)

Warden: The Grey Wardens need allies. I'll take you over the elves.
swiftrunner: Then we attack! They are weak with the curse... let us leave him no choice but to break it! Break it or die!! (thrilled, his bloodlust should come through here -- their deaths would be the preferred outcome)

This actually does not negate the earlier part of the conversation, however.  You also, if going this way, don't get the chance for Zathrien to break the curse.  You just go up and attack.

I am, going to bold the key setence above.  This is an either/or proposition, not an automatic we will kill all Dalish for lulz.

Furthermore in the cutscene at the Dalish camp, the Lady of the Forest gives and indeed PLEADS with Zathrian to end the curse and she explains in front of the whole clan that Zathrian is responsible....and Zathrian never denies it.

In short, you do give Zathrian one last chance to save his clan but he'd rather have his hate and his clan backs them making them IMHO accessories after the fact.

-Polaris

[ejoslin]

Hmmm, Wynne also confirms this.



Wynne; Well, I do not like this plan at all! Inciting these poor creatures to attack the Dalish--are you mad?! (disgusted)

Warden: We are here to fight the darkspawn, not to help the elves. (persuade check)



pass

Wynne: I... very well. If you think it is best, then do it. But I still think it is cruel. (reluctant, she very much disapproves)



fail

Wynne: And how is this anything less than unnecessary and cruel? I cannot disagree with this more! (disgusted)

[ejoslin]

IanPolaris wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

The actual dialogs -- my opinion out entirely because i swear I must be misunderstanding the disagreement...

Here's the first persuade check:

Warden: (persuade) I have another plan. Kill the elves. Kill Zathrian.
Swiftrunner: (if passed) I like this plan. Hrrr. (perking up, bloodthirsty)
Lady: And you would... help us in this? You would attack the Dalish? (she is reluctant to consider this, and the idea makes her a bit sad even)

Warden: The Grey Wardens need allies. I'll take you over the elves.
swiftrunner: Then we attack! They are weak with the curse... let us leave him no choice but to break it! Break it or die!! (thrilled, his bloodlust should come through here -- their deaths would be the preferred outcome)

This actually does not negate the earlier part of the conversation, however.  You also, if going this way, don't get the chance for Zathrien to break the curse.  You just go up and attack.

I am, going to bold the key setence above.  This is an either/or proposition, not an automatic we will kill all Dalish for lulz.

Furthermore in the cutscene at the Dalish camp, the Lady of the Forest gives and indeed PLEADS with Zathrian to end the curse and she explains in front of the whole clan that Zathrian is responsible....and Zathrian never denies it.

In short, you do give Zathrian one last chance to save his clan but he'd rather have his hate and his clan backs them making them IMHO accessories after the fact.

-Polaris

I saw that.  Addressed it even.  You are ignoring the rest of the conversation.

Edit: Of course the Lady and the werewolves want the curse broken.  That is what they're trying to accomplish.  That's why you have to persuade them to attack -- that is NOT their choice.  If they kill Zathrien, the curse will not be broken and they remain in their suffering.

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 décembre 2010 - 01:14 .

[IanPolaris]

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmm, Wynne also confirms this.

Wynne; Well, I do not like this plan at all! Inciting these poor creatures to attack the Dalish--are you mad?! (disgusted)
Warden: We are here to fight the darkspawn, not to help the elves. (persuade check)

pass
Wynne: I... very well. If you think it is best, then do it. But I still think it is cruel. (reluctant, she very much disapproves)

fail
Wynne: And how is this anything less than unnecessary and cruel? I cannot disagree with this more! (disgusted)

Again, if you actually do the scene, there are two attacks not one.  There is an initial attack to draw out Zathrian and essentially tell him that you mean business, but then the Lady quite explicitly tries to get Zathrian to understand that ending the curse is the only way to save his people.  That's not killing all the Dalish for Lulz.  It's "speak softly but carry a big stick" brand of negotiations.  What no one can know in advance is that Zathrian is such a hate ridden fanatic that he'd rather see his own people die than end the curse, but he IS given the choice which ultimately makes the responsibility for the death of his clan his.

I don't take anything Wynne says too seriously frankly given her own moral issues shall we say?

-Polaris

[Zjarcal]

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmm, Wynne also confirms this.

Yes I know. I know what the line is supposed to mean as far as the game is concerned.

[KnightofPhoenix]

There should have definitely been an option to tell the werewolves to pressure Zathrian into ending the curse by exposing him in front of the clan. If he doesn't accept, then kill him, which is not what the actual sentence implies at all.

But I don't mind handwaving that line of dialogue, just like I handwave my surrender to Cauthrien, because I refuse to believe that my character can't link two sentences together.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 décembre 2010 - 01:18 .

[ejoslin]

IanPolaris wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmm, Wynne also confirms this.

Wynne; Well, I do not like this plan at all! Inciting these poor creatures to attack the Dalish--are you mad?! (disgusted)
Warden: We are here to fight the darkspawn, not to help the elves. (persuade check)

pass
Wynne: I... very well. If you think it is best, then do it. But I still think it is cruel. (reluctant, she very much disapproves)

fail
Wynne: And how is this anything less than unnecessary and cruel? I cannot disagree with this more! (disgusted)

Again, if you actually do the scene, there are two attacks not one.  There is an initial attack to draw out Zathrian and essentially tell him that you mean business, but then the Lady quite explicitly tries to get Zathrian to understand that ending the curse is the only way to save his people.  That's not killing all the Dalish for Lulz.  It's "speak softly but carry a big stick" brand of negotiations.  What no one can know in advance is that Zathrian is such a hate ridden fanatic that he'd rather see his own people die than end the curse, but he IS given the choice which ultimately makes the responsibility for the death of his clan his.

I don't take anything Wynne says too seriously frankly given her own moral issues shall we say?

-Polaris

The werewolves have their agenda, the warden does not share it.  You are ignoring both most of the conversation regarding what the warden wants (which is to have the werewolves fighting for him/her -- they WANT the werewolves whereas the werewolves and lady want the curse broken) and the party's reaction to it.

[IanPolaris]

ejoslin wrote...

I saw that.  Addressed it even.  You are ignoring the rest of the conversation.

No I'm not.  At no point does the actual conversation ever say, "I'm going to murder all Dalish".  It's "end the curse or all the dalish die".  There is a difference.  Just because Zev and Wynne can't make that distinction doesn't mean there isn't one.  Wynne would be unable to make that distinction if it crawed up and bit her.  Wynne has problems understanding such fine points given her own 'checkered' moral consistancy shall we say?  As for Zev, he has a personal angle that's interfering which is understandable but doesn't make him a reliable guide.  I note that you get no disapproval from Alister and he's a lot more reliable guide as to 'good and bad' than those two.

Edit: Of course the Lady and the werewolves want the curse broken.  That is what they're trying to accomplish.  That's why you have to persuade them to attack -- that is NOT their choice.  If they kill Zathrien, the curse will not be broken and they remain in their suffering.

That isn't true.  It's an explicit part of the plan to break the curse by forcing Zathrian to do it on pain of death....and indeed you have to put Zathrian on the pain of death to do it, but there is no way to know in advance that this is the wrong approach.  In fact in the Dalish Camp, the Lady of the Forest speaks with Zathrian and begs him to spare his people as well has her own and then the attack will stop.  He refuses...but don't say that it's a given that the curse won't be broken.  It's not in character.

-Polaris

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

There should have definitely been an option to tell the werewolves to pressure Zathrian into ending the curse by exposing him in front of the clan. If he doesn't accept, then kill him, which is not what the actual sentence implies at all.

But I don't mind handwaving that line of dialogue, just like I handwave my surrender to Cauthrien, because I refuse to believe that my character can't link two sentences together.

How do you roleplay that part? The surrendering to Cauthrien?

[ejoslin]

IanPolaris wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I saw that.  Addressed it even.  You are ignoring the rest of the conversation.

No I'm not.  At no point does the actual conversation ever say, "I'm going to murder all Dalish".  It's "end the curse or all the dalish die".  There is a difference.  Just because Zev and Wynne can't make that distinction doesn't mean there isn't one.  Wynne would be unable to make that distinction if it crawed up and bit her.  Wynne has problems understanding such fine points given her own 'checkered' moral consistancy shall we say?  As for Zev, he has a personal angle that's interfering which is understandable but doesn't make him a reliable guide.  I note that you get no disapproval from Alister and he's a lot more reliable guide as to 'good and bad' than those two.

Edit: Of course the Lady and the werewolves want the curse broken.  That is what they're trying to accomplish.  That's why you have to persuade them to attack -- that is NOT their choice.  If they kill Zathrien, the curse will not be broken and they remain in their suffering.

That isn't true.  It's an explicit part of the plan to break the curse by forcing Zathrian to do it on pain of death....and indeed you have to put Zathrian on the pain of death to do it, but there is no way to know in advance that this is the wrong approach.  In fact in the Dalish Camp, the Lady of the Forest speaks with Zathrian and begs him to spare his people as well has her own and then the attack will stop.  He refuses...but don't say that it's a given that the curse won't be broken.  It's not in character.

-Polaris

Hmmm, these lines...

Warden; I have another plan. Kill the elves. Kill Zathrian.

warden: The Grey Wardens need allies. I'll take you over the elves.

BOTH of which are required in order to actually attack the Dalish do suggest that you're not trying to break the curse.  And that is before you take the conversations you have with Zevran and/or Wynne if they're in your party over it.

Edit; Again, it is in the werewolves' interest to end the curse -- that is what they're trying to do.  Your warden says they want the werewolves on their side, not the elves.  The warden going down this path has not expressed wanting to end the curse at ALL.

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 décembre 2010 - 01:25 .

[IanPolaris]

ejoslin wrote...

The werewolves have their agenda, the warden does not share it.  You are ignoring both most of the conversation regarding what the warden wants (which is to have the werewolves fighting for him/her -- they WANT the werewolves whereas the werewolves and lady want the curse broken) and the party's reaction to it.

You are ignoring the fact that it's the Lady of the Forest and not you that leads the attack and she specifically arranges it (and SAYS so) to give Zathrian every chance to end the curse peacefully.  Play it out and you will see that I am right.   What the warden is saying is if I have to lose the elves (i.e. if you can't get the curse broken) than I need a replacement army.

Again it is noteworthy that only Zev and Wynne disapprove and even Zev approves if you pass a persuade check, and neither are terribly good guides as to what is actually agreed to.  By contrast try the scene where you throw it back into the Lady's face and just attack (to get witherfang).  Then you get all sorts of dissapproval from the usual suspects and massive dissaproval at that! (Along with a really snide comment from Alistair about skipping diplomacy class)

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

There should have definitely been an option to tell the werewolves to pressure Zathrian into ending the curse by exposing him in front of the clan. If he doesn't accept, then kill him, which is not what the actual sentence implies at all.

But I don't mind handwaving that line of dialogue, just like I handwave my surrender to Cauthrien, because I refuse to believe that my character can't link two sentences together.

Here is the key difference:  There is no [persuade], [intimadate], [attribute] choice for Ser Cauthrian.  As such, those are the verbatim lines said.

There is such a line for the Lady which means it's not necessarily thge verbatim line said (it's just interpreted as such by a couple of people with agendas).

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

There should have definitely been an option to tell the werewolves to pressure Zathrian into ending the curse by exposing him in front of the clan. If he doesn't accept, then kill him, which is not what the actual sentence implies at all.

But I don't mind handwaving that line of dialogue, just like I handwave my surrender to Cauthrien, because I refuse to believe that my character can't link two sentences together.

How do you roleplay that part? The surrendering to Cauthrien?

Copy paste from another thread.

"My canon surrendered, in a calculated risk because:

a- It's not
in Loghain's interest to kill the Warden right before the Landsmeet, it
would make him look bad (that's the only explanation as to why Cauthrien
does not kill you when she beats you that I can think of).

b- I
"pretended" to negotiate with Cauthrien my surrender in exchange for the
safety of companions, avoiding an unnecessary fight, and appealing to her chilvarous nature to have me emprisonned and trialed. That's something
that was missing in the game but I don't really care, all options in
that scenario were not that smart and I'd prefer to imagine things that
ought to have been there but aren't, that conform with what the game has us do later on anyways.

c- I have Morrigan's ring and she knows where I would be taken, thus capable of mounting a rescue."

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

There should have definitely been an option to tell the werewolves to pressure Zathrian into ending the curse by exposing him in front of the clan. If he doesn't accept, then kill him, which is not what the actual sentence implies at all.

But I don't mind handwaving that line of dialogue, just like I handwave my surrender to Cauthrien, because I refuse to believe that my character can't link two sentences together.

Here is the key difference:  There is no [persuade], [intimadate], [attribute] choice for Ser Cauthrian.  As such, those are the verbatim lines said.

There is such a line for the Lady which means it's not necessarily thge verbatim line said (it's just interpreted as such by a couple of people with agendas).

-Polaris

Give me a specific dev or writer quote indicating that they designed [persuade] [intimidate] options to not be taken literally, but others have to.

If you can't, then I am not obliged to agree with your assumptions as if they are facts.
Play that way if you want, I on the otherhand am not going to take most lines literally.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 décembre 2010 - 01:31 .

[ejoslin]

IanPolaris wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

The werewolves have their agenda, the warden does not share it.  You are ignoring both most of the conversation regarding what the warden wants (which is to have the werewolves fighting for him/her -- they WANT the werewolves whereas the werewolves and lady want the curse broken) and the party's reaction to it.

You are ignoring the fact that it's the Lady of the Forest and not you that leads the attack and she specifically arranges it (and SAYS so) to give Zathrian every chance to end the curse peacefully.  Play it out and you will see that I am right.   What the warden is saying is if I have to lose the elves (i.e. if you can't get the curse broken) than I need a replacement army.

Again it is noteworthy that only Zev and Wynne disapprove and even Zev approves if you pass a persuade check, and neither are terribly good guides as to what is actually agreed to.  By contrast try the scene where you throw it back into the Lady's face and just attack (to get witherfang).  Then you get all sorts of dissapproval from the usual suspects and massive dissaproval at that! (Along with a really snide comment from Alistair about skipping diplomacy class)

-Polaris

zevran doesn't approve if he passes the check -- he just accepts it.  You just don't get one of the disapprovals that you would get if you fail (it's not the only disapproval in that conversation).  

And see, you're confusing the lady's motivations with the warden.  The warden says, straight out, that they would prefer the werewolves over the elves.  That is one of the arguments -- that the werewolves are stronger than the elves.  That the lady wants to end the curse is not in dispute.  what the warden says, however, shows that they have a different motivation.

[IanPolaris]

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmm, these lines...

Warden; I have another plan. Kill the elves. Kill Zathrian.

warden: The Grey Wardens need allies. I'll take you over the elves.

BOTH of which are required in order to actually attack the Dalish do suggest that you're not trying to break the curse.  And that is before you take the conversations you have with Zevran and/or Wynne if they're in your party over it.

Not quite.  You need to insert [persuade] in front of that first line.  That alone tells you that the Warden is not saying that line as it is written (any more than "everyone looks out for themselves" is the exact line you say to Alistair to harden him....and indeed Alistair later tells you exactly what you said and it's quite different from that).

So reason to think that this is any different.  As for the second line, there is no guarantee that Zathrian will break the curse or even that it can be broken.  Not even the Lady is absolutely sure it can be.  In that case you'll need an army since the elves obviously won't be available.

Edit; Again, it is in the werewolves' interest to end the curse -- that is what they're trying to do.  Your warden says they want the werewolves on their side, not the elves.  The warden going down this path has not expressed wanting to end the curse at ALL.

Yes you do.  You do in that you don't disagree with swiftrunner or the lady and you DO along with the Lady give Zathrian one last chance to end the curse to save his tribe.  That scene happens in the Dalish camp.  If that wasn't your goal, you'd never give and never allow the Lady to give Zathrian this opportunity.  Actually look at the scene in the camp and you will see what I mean.  It's Zathrian not you that ultimately chooses death for his people.  Until his final refusal it is not a forgone conclusion at least in game.

-Polaris

[ejoslin]

Ok, you need to back up your claim that [persuade] is different from a normal line. Unless you can back that up, then it is invalid.  It is completely opposite from how i understand the dialog working.  I have never seen ANYTHING that says a [persuade] check means anything different than the line as it is written.

here's a line from the Zevran conversation which backs up what i'm saying.  No persuade check.

Warden: The werewolves will make better allies.
Zevran: So it is to be a Grey Warden sacrifice. I see. (icy)

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 décembre 2010 - 01:34 .

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Give me a specific dev or writer quote indicating that they designed [persuade] [intimidate] options to not be taken literally, but others have to.

If you can't, then I am not obliged to agree with your assumptions as if they are facts.
Play that way if you want, I on the otherhand am not going to take most lines literally.

I take it you never harden Alistair then?  If you do, then you are agreeing with my position as I pointed out to Addai earlier.  There are several places in the game where the persuade line description does not match what you really say.

-Polaris

[ejoslin]

IanPolaris wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Give me a specific dev or writer quote indicating that they designed [persuade] [intimidate] options to not be taken literally, but others have to.

If you can't, then I am not obliged to agree with your assumptions as if they are facts.
Play that way if you want, I on the otherhand am not going to take most lines literally.

I take it you never harden Alistair then?  If you do, then you are agreeing with my position as I pointed out to Addai earlier.  There are several places in the game where the persuade line description does not match what you really say.

-Polaris

Alistair hardening line is NOT a persuade check....  

[IanPolaris]

ejoslin wrote...

zevran doesn't approve if he passes the check -- he just accepts it.  You just don't get one of the disapprovals that you would get if you fail (it's not the only disapproval in that conversation).  

Yes he does.  You get +1 approval.

And see, you're confusing the lady's motivations with the warden.  The warden says, straight out, that they would prefer the werewolves over the elves.  That is one of the arguments -- that the werewolves are stronger than the elves.  That the lady wants to end the curse is not in dispute.  what the warden says, however, shows that they have a different motivation.

The Warden is letting the lady handle the attack and negotiation or are you going to pretend the scene in the camp doesn't happen at all.  If so, it's my turn to call foul. 

-Polaris