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[Costin_Razvan]

How are you going to find the clans so quickly? They are spread out over many nations.



You may find a couple of them, but even that is hardly a fighting force I would consider using.

[Addai]

IanPolaris wrote...

Addai,

Ideally I would (esp for a Dalish PC) would have liked an option to explicitly force the issue in front of the clan and have him either remove the curse or be exiled from the clan. However, it would wind up being the same (the slaughter of the clan) since even when the truth is revealed in front of the whole clan AND Zathrian doesn't deny it, NOT ONE Dalish in the camp stands against Zathrian. Not One.

Frankly that tells me everything I need to know about the Dalish.

-Polaris

That might not be true if the one doing the persuading is "the Dalish Grey Warden," who's taken on a bit of hero cachet even before you meet the werewolves.

Regardless, I'm not going to argue that point with you because as ejoslin demonstrated, it's not what the Warden ever proposes.  You're going there to eliminate the elves and keep the curse alive so you can have your flea-bitten army.  Since you refuse to consider in-game evidence to the contrary, there's not much to discuss.  Though you might think about the h bomb you dropped earlier. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
In a forum in the old thread I saw Gaider correcting someone who thought the wars against the elves must have been easily won. He said the opposite was true, and that's why the Dalish are hated so much, because they're feared. But then you meet Cammen. *sigh*.

Yes, the Dalish of the Dales were single handedely defeating the Orlesians (and they were quite brutal), until the Exalted Marches were declared. But that's when they weren't nomads, so I wouldnt' expect them now to be even remotely similar to the Dales in terms of martial strength. 

Nomads can be physically tougher, but that does not translate into military prowess.

But yes, I saw the dalish as very frail. The only redeeemig thing about them was their crafting. But I wouldn't expect them to be able to craft weapons for the entire army, so that is limited.

Addai67 wrote...
As for numbers, that's iffy too. It might have been more appropriate if the Warden had, say, heard of an emergency meeting of the clans called together to talk about the Blight and shown up for it.

That would have made more sense.

Seriously, Bioware should start learning ways to convey a war properly.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 décembre 2010 - 06:16 .

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

How are you going to find the clans so quickly? They are spread out over many nations.

You may find a couple of them, but even that is hardly a fighting force I would consider using.

Most of Redcliffe has been decimated, too, but you go through a lot more crap to revive Eamon than you have to in the Brecilian forest.  And you've slaughtered a ton of werewolves so their supply has to be pretty scarce too, unless as I said you are banking on spreading the curse to some more human settlements.

Once you secure Lanaya's clan's help, they go find the other clans.  There's a messenger in camp who's going to Marethari's clan, for instance.  I can't remember who says it, but someone in the Dalish camp (probably Lanaya) says "it is not just our clan coming to your aid" or something along those lines.

In general I agree, though, that I'd rather have seen greater numbers represented.

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

It's a little frustrating for the Dalish fan that the game lore seems to be of two minds about them. On the one hand, they are supposed to be fearsome warriors, and you would expect a people that intent on pure survival would be. Granted, their martial skills are more towards hunting and defensive warfare, but the game shows them as rather whimsical and insipid even for that. In a forum in the old thread I saw Gaider correcting someone who thought the wars against the elves must have been easily won. He said the opposite was true, and that's why the Dalish are hated so much, because they're feared. But then you meet Cammen. *sigh*

Actually it's worse than that.  Remember that the Dales when it was conquered as a kingdom in it's own right, with it's own army, economy laws, etc, and given that elves were more numerous then AND had more magic per capita and didn't have a brain-dead chantry putting shackles on Mages, I can easily believe that the war against the Dales was not easily won.

However, I have to take issue with DG on this one at least now.  Yes it's his world and he gets to write the lore, but I just can't see why anyone takes the Dalish seriously....and near as I can tell, they don't.  The Dalish seem to be treated much like the late 18th century rebel Apaches (that refused to sign the treaty with the US).  Respected and perhaps even feared on an individual level, but as a unity generally held in contempt....and justifiably so.

If you are reduced to small hunter-gatherer clans with no source of economy or industry (let alone population) for a general war, then you lose.  You might win a skirmish or two, but you lose against an aggressive, populous, organized enemy (and humanity certainly qualifies).  It's worse that humanity can literally breed out (by force if need by) the elves.

Like I've said many times, I just don't see how there are going to be any elves within 500 years on Thedas at all.

As for numbers, that's iffy too. It might have been more appropriate if the Warden had, say, heard of an emergency meeting of the clans called together to talk about the Blight and shown up for it.

Again, unless there are far more Dalish clans and in the area then we've been led to believe, I can't see the numbers either.  At best, in all of Ferelden, you might have enough for a rump company (say about 80) of archers.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Addai,

Ideally I would (esp for a Dalish PC) would have liked an option to explicitly force the issue in front of the clan and have him either remove the curse or be exiled from the clan. However, it would wind up being the same (the slaughter of the clan) since even when the truth is revealed in front of the whole clan AND Zathrian doesn't deny it, NOT ONE Dalish in the camp stands against Zathrian. Not One.

Frankly that tells me everything I need to know about the Dalish.

-Polaris

That might not be true if the one doing the persuading is "the Dalish Grey Warden," who's taken on a bit of hero cachet even before you meet the werewolves.

Regardless, I'm not going to argue that point with you because as ejoslin demonstrated, it's not what the Warden ever proposes.  You're going there to eliminate the elves and keep the curse alive so you can have your flea-bitten army.  Since you refuse to consider in-game evidence to the contrary, there's not much to discuss.  Though you might think about the h bomb you dropped earlier. 

Nope.  You earned the h-bomb.  You are treating this situation and the Alistair harding situation by different standards.  That earns you the h-bomb.

--Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Most of Redcliffe has been decimated, too, but you go through a lot more crap to revive Eamon than you have to in the Brecilian forest. 

And that quest was idiotic. He ended up recruiting mercenaries, which anyone else could have done.

Addai67 wrote...
Once you secure Lanaya's clan's help, they go find the other clans.  There's a messenger in camp who's going to Marethari's clan, for instance.  I can't remember who says it, but someone in the Dalish camp (probably Lanaya) says "it is not just our clan coming to your aid" or something along those lines.

But they say that after. I don't recall Zathrian saying anything about those other clans. Heck, if Zathrian knows where the other clans are, then why didn't he request aid?? You can ask him to call for help and he, in an insulted tone, says there is no one to help. So how are we supposed to know that there are other clans nearby? 

[IanPolaris]

Sure there is a messenger in Lanaya's camp and I'm factoring that in, but look at the size of the two camps we know about (PC Dalish Camp and Lanaya's Camp). At most I'd estimate based on number of Aravels, hunters, etc that they'd have a total population of maybe 50ish. Of these only a fourth (being generous) would be combat capable so you are looking at perhaps 12 or so? Also remember that most of the Dalish clans (including your origin clan) are fleeing Fereldan as fast as the Halla can carry them....so I'd say you'd be lucky if you had more than a half-dozen clans close enough to honor the call in time.



That's where I am getting my rough estimate of 80.



-Polaris

[Costin_Razvan]

The only thing in game that I can base numbers on is the actual pre-final battle cinematic.



A cinematic where the Werewolves have just as many numbers as the Elves do.

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Most of Redcliffe has been decimated, too, but you go through a lot more crap to revive Eamon than you have to in the Brecilian forest. 

And that quest was idiotic. He ended up recruiting mercenaries, which anyone else could have done.

Addai67 wrote...
Once you secure Lanaya's clan's help, they go find the other clans.  There's a messenger in camp who's going to Marethari's clan, for instance.  I can't remember who says it, but someone in the Dalish camp (probably Lanaya) says "it is not just our clan coming to your aid" or something along those lines.

But they say that after. I don't recall Zathrian saying anything about those other clans. Heck, if Zathrian knows where the other clans are, then why didn't he request aid?? You can ask him to call for help and he, in an insulted tone, says there is no one to help. So how are we supposed to know that there are other clans nearby? 

In addition, Zathrian when you first meet him makes it painfully clear that the clan would have moved on and out of Fereldan had they the ability to move at all...and you know that the PC's clan did just that.  I don't think there are very many Dalish clans left in Fereldan at all.

-Polaris

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
In a forum in the old thread I saw Gaider correcting someone who thought the wars against the elves must have been easily won. He said the opposite was true, and that's why the Dalish are hated so much, because they're feared. But then you meet Cammen. *sigh*.

Yes, the Dalish of the Dales were single handedely defeating the Orlesians (and they were quite brutal), until the Exalted Marches were declared. But that's when they weren't nomads, so I wouldnt' expect them now to be even remotely similar to the Dales in terms of martial strength. 

Nomads can be physically tougher, but that does not translate into military prowess.

But yes, I saw the dalish as very frail. The only redeeemig thing about them was their crafting. But I wouldn't expect them to be able to craft weapons for the entire army, so that is limited.

I see many parallels between the Dalish and Native Americans in our history, who even when their numbers had been severely shrunk by disease, being driven from wilderness to wilderness, and constant fighting with the colonists, still maintained their reputation as fearsome, proud warriors.  Some were more ruthless and warlike than others, and I think that's the case with the Dalish too, where you have some clans who are largely peaceful and not honed for battle, and others who are more martial.  In my head I put the Fereldan clans towards the former. 

The Dalish Warden needn't be of peaceful mind, however.  One of the reasons I love roleplaying one.  It's easier for me to picture them as the pragmatic warrior who rises to the occasion than some of the other origins.  I usually call out the Dalish army in the final battle because of their ranged attack, but I just love the poetic epic feeling of a Dalish Grey Warden leading a Dalish army agains the archdemon.

[/dalishfan]

Seriously, Bioware should start learning ways to convey a war properly.

I don't think it's their goal because the main goal is to create a character-driven drama, not a strategy game.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

The only thing in game that I can base numbers on is the actual pre-final battle cinematic.

A cinematic where the Werewolves have just as many numbers as the Elves do.

But that's after you make the decisions. During, you are not given enough indication that all of what you are doing is worthwhile. And you are not given any appromixation on numbers, not to mention logistics and how you are goign to feed them. There is no way of knowing that the werewolves are going to be as numerous as the cutscene suggests, when you don't see them and slaughter most of them. Same with elves. 

@ Ian
Yes, I know, I mentionned that in my previous post.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Addai
Warriors =/= soldiers.
I would rather have soldiers.

Seriously, Bioware should start learning ways to convey a war properly.

I don't think it's their goal because the main goal is to create a character-driven drama, not a strategy game.

I am not asking for a strategy game, I am asking for a game that at least tries to make me feel I am in a war. That would add more to the drama. I am sick tired of being a one man (or one group) army.

[Addai]

IanPolaris wrote...
Nope.  You earned the h-bomb.  You are treating this situation and the Alistair harding situation by different standards.  That earns you the h-bomb.

--Polaris

<_<  I admitted I metagame the Alistair dialogue, and said it's possible to metagame the Dalish quest too.  Hell, re-write the whole game to suit yourself, I don't care.  Put it up on fanfiction.net and people will probably write nice things about you.  LOL

[Costin_Razvan]

But that's after you make the decisions. During, you are not given enough indication that all of what you are doing is worthwhile. And you are not given any appromixation on numbers, not to mention logistics and how you are goign to feed them. There is no way of knowing that the werewolves are going to be as numerous as the cutscene suggests, when you don't see them and slaughter most of them. Same with elves.

All I see in game is that Werewolves you encounter after meeting the gatekeeper do outnumber the Dalish clan, and they are much stronger.



That's all I need to know really.

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

I see many parallels between the Dalish and Native Americans in our history, who even when their numbers had been severely shrunk by disease, being driven from wilderness to wilderness, and constant fighting with the colonists, still maintained their reputation as fearsome, proud warriors.  Some were more ruthless and warlike than others, and I think that's the case with the Dalish too, where you have some clans who are largely peaceful and not honed for battle, and others who are more martial.  In my head I put the Fereldan clans towards the former. 

Actually I see the Ferelden Dalish being fairly martial.  Even at low levels, Dalish Light Armor just can't be beat (to name one example).  The problem is the Native Americans lost and lost big-time.  The period from 1600 to 1900 represented one of the largest ethnic shifts on a continent (North America) in all of human history.  North America went from being sparsely populated by Amerinds (of various sorts) with a total population of maybe a million tops, to an overwhelmingly Western European/Caucian ethnicity with a total population of nearly 100 million or so.

I see the exact same thing happening to the Dalish.  They are out bred, out gunned, and frankly politically outsmarted....just like the Native Americans were.

-Polaris

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Addai
Warriors =/= soldiers.
I would rather have soldiers.

I don't really get what you mean.  You're talking established military orders?  That's not a very medieval concept anyway.  Armies were local and how disciplined or effective they were hinged largely on the lord's wealth and capability.  The same could be said of this or that Dalish clan.

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Nope.  You earned the h-bomb.  You are treating this situation and the Alistair harding situation by different standards.  That earns you the h-bomb.

--Polaris

<_<  I admitted I metagame the Alistair dialogue, and said it's possible to metagame the Dalish quest too.  Hell, re-write the whole game to suit yourself, I don't care.  Put it up on fanfiction.net and people will probably write nice things about you.  LOL

My point is that you were applying different standards.

-Poalris

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
All I see in game is that Werewolves you encounter after meeting the gatekeeper do outnumber the Dalish clan, and they are much stronger.

That's all I need to know really.

From what I have seen, I was thinking about ignoring both of them and focus on the big fish. That is Loghain, he has the army.

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Addai
Warriors =/= soldiers.
I would rather have soldiers.

I
don't really get what you mean.  You're talking established military
orders?  That's not a very medieval concept anyway.  Armies were local
and how disciplined or effective they were hinged largely on the lord's
wealth and capability.  The same could be said of this or that Dalish
clan.

I saw nothing of Zathrian's clan or the Dalish origin clan that hinted at them being profficient at fighting. So I personally would take my chances with armies funded by lords. While I am not expecting too much discipline from the half civilised Fereldans, I'd rather take my chances with them than with nomads whose use is limited to guerilla warfare that can't apply in the context of a blight. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 décembre 2010 - 06:40 .

[Costin_Razvan]

From what I have seen, I was thinking about ignoring both of them and focus on the big fish. That is Loghain, he has the army.

Perhaps so, but it is not illogical to assume there are many more Werewolves in the forest.

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Addai
Warriors =/= soldiers.
I would rather have soldiers.

I don't really get what you mean.  You're talking established military orders?  That's not a very medieval concept anyway.  Armies were local and how disciplined or effective they were hinged largely on the lord's wealth and capability.  The same could be said of this or that Dalish clan.

As a veteran myself, I'll explain it.  A warrior might have excellent individual martial skills, but in a battlefield which is easily the most frightening thing you'll ever experience with thousands of people just waiting to kill little ol' you, discipline is the premier requirement.  It takes discipline to hold your ground in a fireline while lots of angry people with pointed sticks are looking to turn you into a shish-ka-bob.  It takes discipline to concentrate on your foe when a quarrel barely misses your head,etc.

Soldiers have been trained in group tactics and have (if they are any good at all) iron discipline.

Warriors generally don't.

Warriors that haven't been trained as soldiers have a tendency to break and run from a battle regardless of how good their individual skills are.  War is nothing like hunting.

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

From what I have seen, I was thinking about ignoring both of them and focus on the big fish. That is Loghain, he has the army.

Perhaps so, but it is not illogical to assume there are many more Werewolves in the forest.

Seeing how they are obsessed with protecting the Lady, I would think that all of them would have been summoned to the Ruin. Why would they be elsewhere?

[Costin_Razvan]

Seeing how they are obsessed with protecting the Lady, I would think that all of them would have been summoned to the Ruin. Why would they be elsewhere?

If you want me to understand them, then uhm no I can't. All I know is that once you persuade the Lady to attack the Dalish her words are: "Summon the others."



Which means there are other Werewolves elsewhere.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Seeing how they are obsessed with protecting the Lady, I would think that all of them would have been summoned to the Ruin. Why would they be elsewhere?

If you want me to understand them, then uhm no I can't. All I know is that once you persuade the Lady to attack the Dalish her words are: "Summon the others."

Which means there are other Werewolves elsewhere.

Ugh, are they that stupid? Swiftrunner knew you were coming for them!

Ok, I am going to stop thinking too much, lest I start hating the game.

[Costin_Razvan]

It's just one of those choices the writers didn't really think about but they still put it there so it would be "cool"



"snort"