227 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

It's just one of those choices the writers didn't really think about but they still put it there so it would be "cool"

"snort"

There seems to be a lot of that going around.

-Polaris

[Johnny Chaos]

**** them all



thats my opinion

[Quill74Pen]

Hmm. By "summon the others," it's possible the Lady is simply referring to the werewolves stationed elsewhere in and around the ruined fortress. After all, the Warden's party *doesn't* explore the fortress in its entirety, and it's quite likely Swiftrunner/Lady couldn't be 100 percent sure of which route the Warden and his/her companions would take in making their way to the final confrontation (hence, she had to cover her bases, so to speak).

Quill74Pen

P.S. One other observation — my "baby" thread grew to adulthood in the span of 24 hours or so! Wow!

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I saw nothing of Zathrian's clan or the Dalish origin clan that hinted at them being profficient at fighting. So I personally would take my chances with armies funded by lords. While I am not expecting too much discipline from the half civilised Fereldans, I'd rather take my chances with them than with nomads whose use is limited to guerilla warfare that can't apply in the context of a blight. 

It's metagame knowledge, too, but you'd have to go on the reputation of the Dalish as hunters and warriors.  Even Loghain was afraid of them. 

[Addai]

IanPolaris wrote...

As a veteran myself, I'll explain it.  A warrior might have excellent individual martial skills, but in a battlefield which is easily the most frightening thing you'll ever experience with thousands of people just waiting to kill little ol' you, discipline is the premier requirement.  It takes discipline to hold your ground in a fireline while lots of angry people with pointed sticks are looking to turn you into a shish-ka-bob.  It takes discipline to concentrate on your foe when a quarrel barely misses your head,etc.

Soldiers have been trained in group tactics and have (if they are any good at all) iron discipline.

Warriors generally don't.

Warriors that haven't been trained as soldiers have a tendency to break and run from a battle regardless of how good their individual skills are.  War is nothing like hunting.

-Polaris

And... the werewolves would provide you with such disciplined troops?

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

And... the werewolves would provide you with such disciplined troops?

Not especially but I wasn't talking about Dalish vs Werewolf troops in that particular post.  I was talking in that post about the difference between Warriors and Soldiers (and neither the Weres nor Dalish are good soldiers...and really for the same reason.  Both lack discipline).

-Polaris

[Joy Divison]

I dont think we can rely on the in-game graphics to determine how many dalish or werewolves there are; the number of all creatures in every area is very underrepresented so the framerate doesn't slow to a crawl. And if the warden thinks she needs more werewolves, well, it's not that hard to "recruit" more...Just saying if you want to go that route.



Also 1 werewolf >>> 1 dalish



I wouldn't call myself an elven "fanboy," though I probably play them more often than any other race in RPGs. When I played my dalish warden, it was easy to to see it as a journey of discovery. Many of your journeys and encounters reveal all the xenophobic biased "history" you were raised on for the BS it is and seeing how Zatherian's clan just blindly followed some sketchy centuries years old not-so-master of deception made it so it would be practically impossible to listen to Sarel or any other clan storyteller spout out about the dalish this and that.



That was actually one reason I liked the game a lot; when I first started out my dalish warden, I thought she'd show the miserable humans how great and righteous the dalish were/are, but I soon saw things aren't so clear or black and white.

[IanPolaris]

Just as an aside, from a purely military PoV, there are really only a couple of quests worth really worth doing (as in they will realistically give you enough trained soldiers to make a real difference) and I will list them in order of decreasing importance:

1.  Orzammar (and save the Anvil)

This is huge and if you save the anvil, this quest is probably enough alone to take on the archdemon.  Orzammar is a city-state that is also what is known as a garrison state due to it's constant battle with the darkspawn in the deep roads.  That means for it's population size (which seems extensive), it will have a high percentage of ready and trained (prob elite by human standards) soldiers that have been trained as soldiers.  If you have a silver tongue (or are a dwarf yourself), you can get the LotD as a bonus who are at least as experienced and skilled at fighting darkspawn as soldiers as the Grey Wardens themselves.  Now factor in a small but active production of nearly unstoppable war-machines (Golems) and it's pure win.

2.  Redcliff

This is less important from a purely military PoV, but Arl Eamon is probably the next most important noble after Loghain.  Honestly I'd rather try to convince Loghain to join me with his army, but that's not in the cards (at least not without Arl Eamon).  Arl Eamon's own troops seem limited in number and scattered, but apparently the Arl has money and connections enough to buy first rate mecenary troops, and I won't turn my nose up at mercenary companies many of which are just as good as soldiers as regular soldiers as long as they get paid.

3.  Circle Tower

Now we're talking about a major degredation of quality.  Whether you take the Templars or the Mages, it seems clear to me that both have taken absolutely horrific casualties.  I would say that that makes them useless in any military engagement except for the fact that presumably that either can draw on other resources in the months in which you prep for battle either from other Chantry Houses/Districts (Templars) or via messenger to other Circle Towers and those Mages that had been allowed outside the twoer (Mages).  Of the options, I think I prefer the Mages if only because if I'm going to only have a small number of either, Mages give me more bang for the buck.

4. Elves/Werewolves

Honestly both sides are nearly worthless because neither are trained as soldiers and neither has the numbers you need to really be worthwhile anyway (per above).

-Polaris

[Addai]

And yet in the final battle your melee troops end up being useless and the Dalish army quite effective. The dwarves are also diminished in number and their commitment to helping you seems pretty paltry, despite the politicians' big words. It's a "surface problem." You find this out in the castle before the last battle, that politics has diminished the dwarven army from what it could have been. Also, as Duncan points out, one mage is an army unto herself.

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

And yet in the final battle your melee troops end up being useless and the Dalish army quite effective. The dwarves are also diminished in number and their commitment to helping you seems pretty paltry, despite the politicians' big words. It's a "surface problem." You find this out in the castle before the last battle, that politics has diminished the dwarven army from what it could have been. Also, as Duncan points out, one mage is an army unto herself.

Actually no they don't.  Sure the archdemon in one part of the final battle gets on his perch out of reach of melee attacks, but did you miss the big balista on the next tower?  Use that and the Archedemon will quickly vacate that perch.

Even if you don't see it, the dwarves are great for keeping all those extra darkspawn the archdemon summons off your tail.  I don't expect my troops to fight the archdemon.  I can do that fairly easily.  I expect them to keep me clean while I do it.

The fact is that of all the quests, only the dwarves can supply enough troops that are combat trained to be meaningful.  The best choice for king is of course Bhelen who will insure you get the troops you need.  Get the cooperpation of the LotD and save the Anvil, and you've got a respectable army from that one quest alone.

[And you can use just golems to hack all the Denerim quests......without a single casualty if you want to use your troops at all.]

-Polaris

Edit PS:  You hear about one house being stubborn.  You also hear dark hints that the hammer will fall down on them afterwards (esp if Bhelen is king).

Modifié par IanPolaris, 24 décembre 2010 - 06:37 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
 Also, as Duncan points out, one mage is an army unto herself.

And yet 7 of them, including two seniors, proved very much useless at Ostagar.
They are overrated. Unless they happen to know all the spells that our party members / PC know, which I find unlikely.

It's the Tevinter Imperium that harnessed the real potential of mages.

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
 Also, as Duncan points out, one mage is an army unto herself.

And yet 7 of them, including two seniors, proved very much useless at Ostagar.
They are overrated. Unless they happen to know all the spells that our party members / PC know, which I find unlikely.

It's the Tevinter Imperium that harnessed the real potential of mages.

Agreed.  If you want a specific example, consider the "Cicle Mage" that saddle you with when you assault the Tower of Ishal (if you aren't a mage).  The comparison between that mage in battle and a PC built mage is simply astronomical (and not in a good way for the Circle Mage) even when both are the same level.  Frankly it seems like your typical circle mage (going by that example and Jowan....and even Wynne who isn't built well either for her level) are simply pathetic in battle.

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...
The fact is that of all the quests, only the dwarves can supply enough troops that are combat trained to be meaningful.  The best choice for king is of course Bhelen who will insure you get the troops you need.  Get the cooperpation of the LotD and save the Anvil, and you've got a respectable army from that one quest alone.

We should have gotten more troops with Bhelen, as he enlists casteless into the army. But I guess they didn't want to punish those who pick Harrowmont too much.

[Addai]

Circle mages are pretty useless, yes. That's been the RP kernel of why my blood mages develop that knowledge. They see in Ostagar that they can either continue to throw spitballs at the darkspawn and the world ends, or they ramp up their game and they might actually get somewhere.  Although some of that, like in the Tower of Ishal, is just game balancing.

Modifié par Addai67, 24 décembre 2010 - 06:44 .

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
The fact is that of all the quests, only the dwarves can supply enough troops that are combat trained to be meaningful.  The best choice for king is of course Bhelen who will insure you get the troops you need.  Get the cooperpation of the LotD and save the Anvil, and you've got a respectable army from that one quest alone.

We should have gotten more troops with Bhelen, as he enlists casteless into the army. But I guess they didn't want to punish those who pick Harrowmont too much.

True on both counts.  Still I think we agree that it's Orzammar (esp if you go with King Bhelen) that really gives you all the military support you need.  The rest?  Not so much.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

[double post]

Modifié par IanPolaris, 24 décembre 2010 - 06:45 .

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...
  Although some of that, like in the Tower of Ishal, is just game balancing.

That last statement I don't understand at all.  I can understand that the cicle mage might not have Fireball (for example) which really makes life a lot easier in the tower, but can you please explain to me why a competant mage in the middle of a warzone doesn't at least have a simple HEAL SPELL?

-Polaris

[Addai]

IanPolaris wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

And yet in the final battle your melee troops end up being useless and the Dalish army quite effective. The dwarves are also diminished in number and their commitment to helping you seems pretty paltry, despite the politicians' big words. It's a "surface problem." You find this out in the castle before the last battle, that politics has diminished the dwarven army from what it could have been. Also, as Duncan points out, one mage is an army unto herself.

Actually no they don't.  Sure the archdemon in one part of the final battle gets on his perch out of reach of melee attacks, but did you miss the big balista on the next tower?  Use that and the Archedemon will quickly vacate that perch.

And the ballista can break.  Besides, your team should know from fighting high dragons and Flemeth that ranged attack makes the most sense and is the most effective against a dragon.  I also would throw everything I have at the AD.  As you tell Riordan in the Cunning check, the AD is all that really matters.

Don't disagree that the dwarf troops are a strong ally.  Especially if you have golems, too.  But all your allies end up being useful.  You really can't be that picky when most of Ferelden's armies have been decimated.

[Addai]

IanPolaris wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
  Although some of that, like in the Tower of Ishal, is just game balancing.

That last statement I don't understand at all.  I can understand that the cicle mage might not have Fireball (for example) which really makes life a lot easier in the tower, but can you please explain to me why a competant mage in the middle of a warzone doesn't at least have a simple HEAL SPELL?

-Polaris

Morrigan doesn't come with a heal spell, either, and she was trained by the most powerful mage in Ferelden without Circle restrictions.  They're trying to get you to work with tactics and not make the game too easy at the beginning.

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

Morrigan doesn't come with a heal spell, either, and she was trained by the most powerful mage in Ferelden without Circle restrictions.  They're trying to get you to work with tactics and not make the game too easy at the beginning.

Morrigan was not also expected to be in battle anytime soon either.  Even so, Morrigan has a slew of very potent and useful spells that make her an asset right away, and she levels up so you can quickly give her a heal spell (and I do).  Specifically she comes with Mind-Blast (very nice), Winter's Grasp (one of the best single-target damage spell at low levels), Icey Blades, and IIRC Horror. 

I would have liked that circle mage we got to be at least as competant as some apostate that learned their magic in a swamp.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

And the ballista can break.  Besides, your team should know from fighting high dragons and Flemeth that ranged attack makes the most sense and is the most effective against a dragon.  I also would throw everything I have at the AD.  As you tell Riordan in the Cunning check, the AD is all that really matters.

At which point you pull out your staff and/or bow and pelt the Archdemon until he goes away.  As long as my troops keep me clean, that Archdemon (esp with the ballista but it's not required) can't stay on that perch for very long.

Don't disagree that the dwarf troops are a strong ally.  Especially if you have golems, too.  But all your allies end up being useful.  You really can't be that picky when most of Ferelden's armies have been decimated.

Actually no they don't.  As for ranged troops against the arch-demon, that would be a point if you could control them (even via an orders screen) but you can not.  They autoselect (on stupid it oft seems to me) their targets.  Going through Denerim on the final battle, you can do it without using ANY of your troops.  If you want to use troops, I find that Golems will work just about every time except perhaps for the bit leading up to Ft Drakon, but then Dwarven Infantry can hack that just fine.  Using the Golems you shouldn't lose a single one.  They are that butch.

-Polaris

[Zy-El]

Of course, you do know that the Ballista can be repaired by any Rogue with lockpicking. When the AD goes on his perch, the ballista is the fastest means to wear him down til he has to leave; at which point, I can take him down by melee.

The Dwarves are more effective if your Warden managed to persuade the Legion to help out.

[IanPolaris]

Zy-El wrote...

Of course, you do know that the Ballista can be repaired by any Rogue with lockpicking. When the AD goes on his perch, the ballista is the fastest means to wear him down til he has to leave; at which point, I can take him down by melee.

I forgot about that since my last warden was an Arcane BloodWarrior but you're right.  It wasn't hard to force him off that perch regardless.

The Dwarves are more effective if your Warden managed to persuade the Legion to help out.

Absolutely and I've never had a problem convincing them either (and it's automatic if you are a dwarf yourself).

-Polaris

[Pro_Consul]

IanPolaris wrote...

I would have liked that circle mage we got to be at least as competant as some apostate that learned their magic in a swamp.

-Polaris

I don't follow this logic. The Circle seems to exist more to restrain the powers and activities of mages, not make them as powerful as possible. Flemeth, on the other hand, is very possibly the most dangerous mage alive, and she trains her "daughters" to be as dangerous as they can be. I would expect MUCH more from a "Witch of the Wilds" than from a repressed graduate of a repressive school like the Circle. This is, after all, why Morrigan has such disdain for the Circle in the first place: because it exists to restrain mages, not to promote them.

[IanPolaris]

Pro_Consul wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I would have liked that circle mage we got to be at least as competant as some apostate that learned their magic in a swamp.

-Polaris

I don't follow this logic. The Circle seems to exist more to restrain the powers and activities of mages, not make them as powerful as possible. Flemeth, on the other hand, is very possibly the most dangerous mage alive, and she trains her "daughters" to be as dangerous as they can be. I would expect MUCH more from a "Witch of the Wilds" than from a repressed graduate of a repressive school like the Circle. This is, after all, why Morrigan has such disdain for the Circle in the first place: because it exists to restrain mages, not to promote them.

Actually it's the stated and official purpose of the circle to help TRAIN mages and to use their power responsibly.  So what we have to believe is that a self-taught swamp witch is supposed to be a far superior mage than a mage that has spend nearly his (or her) whole life doing nothing but studying magic.

Admittedly when the teacher is Flemeth it's a little easier to believe, but still, even compare the circle mages you are given (Ishal, Jowan, and Wynne) compared with what you make on your own, and it's no contest.  At least Morrigan while not in the PC mage's league is at least within shouting distance unlike those from the wretched circle.

It's no wonder the Dales were winning their war against Orlais given the differing attitudes towards magic.  Frankly it makes me wonder why Tevinter isn't even more powerful than it is.

-Polaris