54 réponses à ce sujet

[The Fred]

Yes, I know, everyone's probably sick about arguements over Clerics and Dragon Disciples, but I'm asking this from the perspective of someone who's reworking a lot of classes for my new campaign (and adding a lot of custom content) and so would like to take the opportunity to act on the biggest balance anomalies.

So, which classes do you think are the most overpowered - or underpowered? The two mentioned above are on the list, as is the Arcane Scholar (though this will probably be cut anyway)... as for underpowered, I'm not sure, maybe the Duelist (since parrying is broken)?

[Arkalezth]

Duelists don't need Parry.

It depends on the level range. Some classes are weak at low levels but get powerful later, or vice versa. So, what's the expected starting/end level in your campaign?

Also, I assume you're talking about vanilla game here (not Kaedrin's and the like)?

Modifié par Arkalezth, 22 décembre 2010 - 01:16 .

[The Fred]

Yeah, forgot to mention that a lot depends on the setting... I'm interested in people's thoughts generally, but my campaign is going to be a fairly low-level (at least, it will start very low) one, where the party size will probably vary (but the player will likely be alone for at least some of the game). I intend to make non-combat options viable, too, so classes which are underpowered combat-wise needn't be underpowered overall if they have access to a lot of skills etc.

Clerics are already due a near-complete rework, and the RDD is on the drawig board. Since it's an oriental campaign, I've chosen to cut Bard and Paladin, and while the Wizard is still in, it will probably be intentionally underpowered as far as the setting goes (i.e. few scrolls etc). Everything else, though, I'd like to mix up a bit, so that even if there are still poer builds, people have to think about them a bit (no more Fighter X/Bard 1/RDD 10).

And yes, no Kaedrin's.

Modifié par The Fred, 22 décembre 2010 - 01:42 .

[manageri]

I think spirit shamans could use a little boost. I know kaedrin's removing their double caster stat dependance in his next release, that would at least be a good change IMO. I'd also give em medium armor.

[Arkalezth]

An estimated end level would be good to know, too, if possible. I mean, if you end at level 7, there's no need to touch most PrCs. Since you mention Fighter X/Bard 1/RDD 10, I guess a high level is reachable. I don't think you need to change classes, it's up to the player to use a strong or weak class, but anyway:

-Overpowered:

Low levels: Melee mages, Druid, Fighter (and most melee classes), Ranger if there are lots of enemies of the same race, maybe Sacred Fist and Blackguard with the undead pet (level 9 earliest, not much practical experience with it, but it's basically 2 warriors for the price of one).
With some more levels: Frenzied Berserker, RDD, ASoCk, Stormlord, Cleric, Bard.

-Underpowered:

Low STR Rogues (and low STR characters in general), Warlock, Monk until level 8-10, Spirit Shaman, Harper Agent, Warpriest, Doomguide, Pale Master, maybe Invisible Blade...

Some of these "overpowered" classes are not necessarily overpowered, but powerful at least.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 22 décembre 2010 - 02:02 .

[kamalpoe]

A lot depends on the level of magic items available.

[Arkalezth]

Yes, and even non-magical. For example, Fighters lose a big advantage if they can't find a full plate. At low levels and with mundane equipment, buffers are the kings. Wizards can get a +4 armor and +4 shield bonus right from the start, a level 5 Druid can get 1-8 extra fire damage and +7 AC, on top of a Dino...Clerics are not that good until a bit later.

Can I ask why did you cut Bards and Paladins?

Modifié par Arkalezth, 22 décembre 2010 - 04:36 .

[nicethugbert]

If the module had no combat at all and it were entirely skills based, who would be under or over powered then?

[Arkalezth]

Oh, and I forgot the good ol' single Shadowdancer level.

[The Fred]

Sorry, I forgot to mention that the magic level will probably be quite low, and I do intend to restrict the majority of armour to light and medium (hopefully this will encourage dex-based characters, or at least force str-based ones to consider diversifying).

Obviously certain classes are often taken purely for dips, which is something else to think about ("under/overpowered" is admittedly a bit of a "black-and-white" concept).

At the moment (nothing final, yet), Bards and Pallies have been cut for flavour reasons more than anything (Oriental Adventures actually suggests cutting also Clerics, Druids and Wizards, but it replaces these with the Shaman, Shugenja and Wu Jen), and I will be adding other classes, too.

Modifié par The Fred, 22 décembre 2010 - 11:08 .

[nicethugbert]

How about including the dragon classes in Kaedrin's class Pack?

[The Fred]

I've had a quick look at them and they look pretty cool, but I want to give a slightly more oriental feel to dragons (I prefer D&D/"western" dragons to the Chinese-type dragons, but I'm going to try and differentiate them a little from the classic D&D chromatic/metallic types at least) and I haven't quite decided how I'm going to go about it.

[Anacronian Stryx]

Dragon Disciples are easily brought down to level just by adding a must be able to cast lvl3 arcane spells as a prerequisite.

[The Fred]

I haven't quite yet decided what I'm going to do with Dragon Disciples, but raising the prereqs a tad is probably called for.

So anyway, the classes which might be considered "overpowered" I'm thinking would be something like Cleric, maybe Fighter at low levels, Arcane Scholar, Red Dragon Disciple, Swashbucklers as a one-level dip... then FB, Stormlord or Bard? I know Bards are quite versetile, but I never really thought of them as overpowered.

Underpowered would probably be Rogues, Monks (at low levels), Spirit Shamans, Harper Agents and Pale Masters? Haven't had much experience with Warpriest (high reqs and only 1/2 spell progression are tough, mind), Doomguide or IB, though.

Anything else screaming out for change?

Modifié par The Fred, 28 décembre 2010 - 12:36 .

[manageri]

Are you thinking about balance from a solo PoV only (or mostly)?

[The Fred]

Mostly; I intend for the player to get companions at some point, but I haven't made any yet and don't know how many. I'm hoping to vary the party size (by offering solo missions or battlefield-like ones) through the game to add some variety. This is all still on the drawing board, though. ;-)

[Haplose]

I wouldn't call Fighter at low levels overpowered. Unless he has a full suite of +1+ equipment at level 1.
Even with fullplate he's still inferior to Druids and Clerics.
Stormlords are quite bad, yes. Bad-ass I mean.

Modifié par Haplose, 28 décembre 2010 - 07:15 .

[Arkalezth]

Yes, that's why I said that some classes were powerful, but maybe not overpowered. They're still among the most powerful classes at very low levels, when buffs don't last long.

They were still better a couple patches ago, when tower shields didn't come with -2 AB.

[frozen4]

I see none has even mentioned the Barbarian, and I guess I know why. It is so bad none even remembered it existed! Rage would need to be 1 per class level and stack with equipment for the class to compete with fighter.

[Arkalezth]

Barbarians are worse than Fighters, but that doesn't mean they're underpowered. Though Barbarians gain basically nothing between levels 2 and 11.

But the same could be said for Paladins, for example. Fighters are better, and power-wise, there's little point in taking more than 5 Paladin levels.

[nicethugbert]

The topic is vague and one sided. Define overpowered and underpowered. Are monsters overpowered?



And, no one has answered my first question. If the module had no combat at all and it were entirely skills based, who would be under or over powered then?

[Arkalezth]

nicethugbert wrote...

And, no one has answered my first question. If the module had no combat at all and it were entirely skills based, who would be under or over powered then?

Bards, Rogues, maybe Wizards (though there's little point in being a Wizard if you don't need spells)...not a hard question.

[The Fred]

nicethugbert wrote...
The topic is vague and one sided. Define overpowered and underpowered. Are monsters overpowered?

I know the topic is somewhat subjective, but I just wanted to get people's general feelings on balance. Things like 1-level dips of Shadowdancer or Cleric, or Bard for RDD levels, don't make a lot of flavour sense (unless you *really* stretch it) but give a much bigger bonus to a character than an extra level of their main class might. I'd call these overpowered.

nicethugbert wrote...
And, no one has answered my first question. If the module had no combat at all and it were entirely skills based, who would be under or over powered then?

As Arkalezth said, Rogues, Bards and other high-skill-point characters. However, I think a module which were *entirely* skills-based would be pretty pointless. I do plan on putting in plenty of skill checks, though, and I've got conversation-based uses for enchantment spells and class features, so a wizard or sorcerer can find plenty of non-combat uses for spells.

frozen4 wrote...
I see none has even mentioned the Barbarian, and I guess I know why. It is so bad none even remembered it existed! Rage would need to be 1 per class level and stack with equipment for the class to compete with fighter.

I have to admit that I've not thought about the Barbarian much, though this is more because of flavour reasons again, rather than simply forgetting it. I actually thought about cutting this one too, but probably won't. In fact, I've already given the Barbarian an extra feat as a bonus.

[nicethugbert]

If high skill classes are overpowered in a skills based module then how can they be underpowered in a skills and combat based module?



I wouldn't call a class overpowered if people only dip into it. It can't be as good as a class that people take more levels of otherwise they are just weakening their build with more levels in the other class.



And, again, are monsters overpowered? Traps? Dispels?

[kamalpoe]

nicethugbert wrote...

If high skill classes are overpowered in a skills based module then how can they be underpowered in a skills and combat based module?

Because in most modules the balance is not 50/50 between combat/skill, and being able to complete a mod via mostly skill use happens almost never.