13 réponses à ce sujet

[052Hagen]

Just have a simple question, really - will it be possible to create dungeons with the help of the building parts? So instead of relying on an interior area, we can simply put the dungeon we want on the map with streamless transition. I mean, at least for small dungeons, I see this as an interesting alternative. A problem would be that we could most likely not hide it underground or out of sight for the player, of course.

[DavidSims]

If I'm understanding you, what you want is a continuous space from an exterior to an interior, rather than an area transition?

That's theoretically possible, but there are a number of issues and the existing pieces aren't built for it.

One problem is you can't punch holes in the terrain mesh. You would have to lower the terrain beneath the dungeon and cover it up with props, or you would have to build the dungeon off the side of the terrain mesh.

Another issues is the lack of path over path support in the pathfinding engine. Wherever the dungeon is, the player wouldn't be able to walk over it. Creating such a situation would be rather difficult anyway though.

A third issue is the existing pieces and the tactical camera. In exterior areas we don't use tactical cutaways, but an interior would have to. Creating the transition between those two styles would be problematic.

Overall, I think this is something that the community is likely to figure out, but it's going to take quite a bit of work.

Modifié par DavidSims, 27 octobre 2009 - 01:31 .

[Shadow180]

DavidSims wrote...

If I'm understanding you, what you want is a continuous space from an exterior to an interior, rather than an area transition?

That's theoretically possible, but there are a number of issues and the existing pieces aren't built for it.

One problem is you can't punch holes in the terrain mesh. You would have to lower the terrain beneath the dungeon and cover it up with props, or you would have to build the dungeon off the side of the terrain mesh.

Another issues is the lack of path over path support in the pathfinding engine. Wherever the dungeon is, the player wouldn't be able to walk over it. Creating such a situation would be rather difficult anyway though.

A third issue is the existing pieces and the tactical camera. In exterior areas we don't use tactical cutaways, but an interior would have to. Creating the transition between those two styles would be problematic.

Overall, I think this is something that the community is likely to figure out, but it's going to take quite a bit of work.

If I remember rightly, on a previous forum it was mentioned that on props there is a type of 'flag' that can be checked, which makes it so that the object fades away when the camera is in a certain place or when the PC is underneath it or something along those lines..?

I can't remember what it does exactly, but wouldn't it help with this?

Also, In my opinion doing something like this would be too much trouble to be worth it. You can try it and probably get results, but you are going to be far more limited by restrictions than if you use the standard way as mentioned above.

[Jassper]

As mentioned, this can be done to some extent, yes. For example you might be able to do a single "Cave" but not a network of caverns, or you could do a single room building. As Shadow180 mentioned, to do anything complex would be too problematic to be worth while.



Now for my question,

What is the big deal with transitions? Is it that you don't like the added 5 or 6 sec load time or is it because you think one huge area is better than say 5 smaller ones? I personally don't buy the "It breaks game immersion" bs, so I hope thats not it.

[Foxd1e]

Personally I always thought it was cool in certain games that offer a cutaway of the dungeon to see a view of the outside world. Like say you are exploring an ancient Mayan ruins and somewhere deep inside you come across a L corner and at the corner is a broken section of wall showing the outside world and the light leaking in, maybe some vines covering it and some jungle growth spreading in. Another cool example would be the game Deadspace, all those scenes you get to peak and sometimes walk a little into space.

[052Hagen]

Walkable houses for one is a huge improvement for me over the previous system for me. I always really liked this in games like Diablo 2, Titan Quest or the Gothic series. I loathed it when in TES IV: Oblivion, they changed everything from the previous game so that the cities where instanced area instead of part of the overworld now, and within them, the houses themself only served as portals to interior areas (they used to do so in TES III as well). It lost the feeling of being one big coherent, organic world. It's just that much nicer beeing able to enter a building from one side, walk up the stairs and end on the roof of another. You are actually inside the architecture as opposed to the houses serving purely as static stage properties.



Yeah, so before drifting farther off-topic, I think the main benefits of this would be that you wouldn't get that disjointed feeling for one, and that you could do can combine the dungeon structure with outdoor areas nicely. It's also of special interest for my project as I plan to create one huge single exterior area for my module that hosts a number of villages, woods and mountains without any transitions in between.

[splyez]

hmmm as someone said about mayan ruins, i really like the idea. so lets hope someone figures out how to do eet

[Shadow180]

052Hagen wrote...

Walkable houses for one is a huge improvement for me over the previous system for me. I always really liked this in games like Diablo 2, Titan Quest or the Gothic series. I loathed it when in TES IV: Oblivion, they changed everything from the previous game so that the cities where instanced area instead of part of the overworld now, and within them, the houses themself only served as portals to interior areas (they used to do so in TES III as well). It lost the feeling of being one big coherent, organic world. It's just that much nicer beeing able to enter a building from one side, walk up the stairs and end on the roof of another. You are actually inside the architecture as opposed to the houses serving purely as static stage properties.

Yeah, so before drifting farther off-topic, I think the main benefits of this would be that you wouldn't get that disjointed feeling for one, and that you could do can combine the dungeon structure with outdoor areas nicely. It's also of special interest for my project as I plan to create one huge single exterior area for my module that hosts a number of villages, woods and mountains without any transitions in between.

I think you may come across a number of problems with that idea considering the engine was not built for large worlds such as that. 

[Adinos]

It is not realistic to design a module with no area transitions at all, and mixing exteriors and interiors like that.... uhm - I don't think it will work very well.

[052Hagen]

From a dev post

"In NWN2 each exterior "tile" was 10m x 10m so the biggest playable area was 320m x 320m. The total size of that area would be 400m x 400m (or was it 440m x 440m?).

In Dragon Age the biggest area possible is 102.4km x 102.4km. Yes that's a k. However the largest actual area in DA:O is 8.4km x 9.6km."


Now I dont know in how far this is true, or what the engine is capable of when that blank space is filled with content (and I remember one review mentioning the game had problems handling the larger areas). And even if a space of, let's say two square kilometers is realistic, there would still be the problem to place all the the objects, trees and what not (one toolset tester told me that there are certain tools to handle larger areas though).

In the end, all I can really say is that we'll see about that. I remain optimistic though.

Modifié par 052Hagen, 27 octobre 2009 - 03:28 .

[BomimoDK]

so, we would be able to make mods specifically for the openworld loving audience... awesome.

although i'm not a big fan i'd certainly be excited to see this be executed.

[Adinos]

"Open world" does not necessarily mean a single, huge (and slow) area - the important point is the ability yoo go anywhere you like, at any time - which is also something you can do with linked areas and typical area transitions.



What you have to avoid (if you want to give your module an "open world" feel) is to restrict player travel by the storyline ... that is, no "the road to X only opens up once you have done Y".



It is perfectly feasible to build a huge world tens, even hundreds of linked areas, with no travel restrictions - go anywhere at any time - gather companions, collect treasure, fight monsters or whatever. The drawback is that this tends to hurt the storyline, as a good story frequently relies on A happening before B.



If you are willing to sacrifice a part of the story in exchange for more freedom in exploring, go ahead - the toolset will allow this.

[DMSublime]

I know in NWN2 (Building outdoor areas is probably pretty much like NWN2) people were making outdoor areas with the appearance of being indoor areas. The were accomplishing this by setting the enviroment properties for the area to cave like settings, such as pitch black (no light source) and things of that nature. Then using appropriate props and models to make it seem like either a wide open cavern or whatever they were trying to accomplish. Some of them were pretty cool, with foggy caves and what not, even Drow cities I believe (it's been a long time).



The point is, if it can be done, some creative bastard will figure it out. Bioware had a plan to follow to accomplish their goals, as players and free builders we are not bound to that.

[Niko Daemon]

Adinos wrote...

It is not realistic to design a module with no area transitions at all, and mixing exteriors and interiors like that.... uhm - I don't think it will work very well.

Agree.  Unless u made like an above-ground maze or something similar, the mix will be problematic.