Base damage is a joke (there are way to many damage pluses you can get cheaply and with unarmed, you loose 2 weapon slots and thus loose on 2 times these). Damage type is not so important either. I played with scrims most of my 6 years of playing and rarely, if ever had issues with doing damage. Also the crit of 20 is soo nice (19-20 with ic)!
You seem to think that your arguments are "new". In ECB we discussed this for YEARS, with every possible reason and wherewithal, and the "best" minds in nwn all came to the same conclusion (which is opposite of yours (and I wasnt part of that cuz unarmed is really a silly way to play nwn- for all reasons I have listed in this silly thread). SO, maybe you know more than te best. I dont think so, but maybe you do.
All this said, YES, the whole thing is environment dependant (someone could have made a mod where a se of monk gloves is the most powerful item in the game, but I doubt it). And the sad thing that you seem to miss is that, in a low magic environment, you need all the gear bonus you can get and in a high magic world, the gear bonus wlll QUICKLY surpass ONE item vs 3 (gloves, wpn, wpn/shield).
Question about monk and ranger weapons
Débuté par
Spartansfan8888
, déc. 23 2010 02:35
Retour en haut
#27
Posté 17 janvier 2011 - 09:56
Shadooow
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Yes. And I agree that in most, I would said that 75%, modules it really doesn't pay off. There are exceptions, but they are rare.avado wrote...
All this said, YES, the whole thing is environment dependant (someone could have made a mod where a se of monk gloves is the most powerful item in the game, but I doubt it).
You still talking about three items, but thats not really correct. We are talking here about monk/cleric build. With monk whats the advantage of shield when you losing speed/monk AC/and mainly monk UBAB. Do not forget -3ab progression for monk UBAB, thats something I specifically build this character on the server I play. And thats exactly why most players are making these builds. So I do not understand why you are equate unarmed with weapon+shield.And the sad thing that you seem to miss is that, in a low magic
environment, you need all the gear bonus you can get and in a high magic
world, the gear bonus wlll QUICKLY surpass ONE item vs 3 (gloves, wpn,
wpn/shield).
I think that the question "Is monk/cleric better than non-monk cleric or any other build." that you are proposing secretly is irrelevant at least for this discussion, and is much harder to answer than it seems.
In general low magic environment, monk AC gives you same or even more than tower shields (if +12 wisdom is possible to attain). Also in general low magic environment mundane flamed+gmwed (+keen if available) kamas with 10 attacks is equal to mundane scimitar/kukri with the same.
For general high magic you are definitely right.
But IMO you should only equate unarmed with dual-wielding or single wield kama (if flag is available it may pay off to fight with one kama with possibility to dual-wield in some situations). Which is lost of
the one slot. I don't think that equating with non monk builds is in
place.
And you also forgot about my argument with flag. Thats for example available on Higher Grounds with monk bonuses. And HG is high magic environment, almost uber. And I think that unarmed is as much playable there as anything else. I tried it.
Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 17 janvier 2011 - 10:03 .
#28
Posté 19 janvier 2011 - 09:08
NorthWolf
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The entire thing is still environmental. If you joined a server where the primary enemy was undead, who are critical immune, pretty much everyone would have a chuckle at you for picking a scimitar. They have low base damage and several undead types are, as per D&D, supposed to resist slashing/piercing, meaning you'd essentially be making a hard time for yourself.avado wrote...
Base damage is a joke (there are way to many damage pluses you can get cheaply and with unarmed, you loose 2 weapon slots and thus loose on 2 times these). Damage type is not so important either. I played with scrims most of my 6 years of playing and rarely, if ever had issues with doing damage. Also the crit of 20 is soo nice (19-20 with ic)!
That's silly. People keep saying that the entire situation is environmental, and certainly no one thinks this sort of argument is new. Discussions about how good monks were in comparison to other classes have been going on since the game was released nine years ago, before there were epic levels to tinker with. And pretty much it's always going to remain situational, because the game is geared towards custom content as opposed to any sort of consistent combat mechanic.avado wrote...
You seem to think that your arguments are "new". In ECB we discussed this for YEARS, with every possible reason and wherewithal, and the "best" minds in nwn all came to the same conclusion (which is opposite of yours (and I wasnt part of that cuz unarmed is really a silly way to play nwn- for all reasons I have listed in this silly thread). SO, maybe you know more than te best. I dont think so, but maybe you do.
ShaDoOow pretty much covered this entirely. I'm glad you're willing to admit it's always going to be module-specific, and I've seen modules that enabled monk builds, including unarmed monk builds. Though I most defer to what ShaDo0ow has said about teh ph4t equipments in low-/high-magic worlds.avado wrote...
All this said, YES, the whole thing is environment dependant (someone could have made a mod where a se of monk gloves is the most powerful item in the game, but I doubt it). And the sad thing that you seem to miss is that, in a low magic environment, you need all the gear bonus you can get and in a high magic world, the gear bonus wlll QUICKLY surpass ONE item vs 3 (gloves, wpn, wpn/shield).
#29
Posté 21 janvier 2011 - 05:52
avado
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http://nwn.bioware.c...221720&gid=8061
In my view, the very best of unarmed builds is this. It isnt a monk (for reasons described in post). Funny, n base damage, no monk ac, etc yet it achieves something a monk cant!
Again, this discussion was done over and over. When I said that it is environment dependant I mean it. However, the environment is very very rare, one where the ultimate item in the game is a pair of monk gloves (to be better than the bonuses from 2 wpns and a pair of mitts). I have not seen on mod named where this is the case because it isnt so, though it could be. And regardless, that is ONE mod where this anomoly stands true.
What has happened to nwn? In ECB we ALWAYS discussed based on GENERAL nwn, not specifics. The entire argument for unarmed IS environment dependant, which should tell you something. I am at a loss. I can only pray that nwn will not continue down this path, though it looks to be the case.
In my view, the very best of unarmed builds is this. It isnt a monk (for reasons described in post). Funny, n base damage, no monk ac, etc yet it achieves something a monk cant!
Again, this discussion was done over and over. When I said that it is environment dependant I mean it. However, the environment is very very rare, one where the ultimate item in the game is a pair of monk gloves (to be better than the bonuses from 2 wpns and a pair of mitts). I have not seen on mod named where this is the case because it isnt so, though it could be. And regardless, that is ONE mod where this anomoly stands true.
What has happened to nwn? In ECB we ALWAYS discussed based on GENERAL nwn, not specifics. The entire argument for unarmed IS environment dependant, which should tell you something. I am at a loss. I can only pray that nwn will not continue down this path, though it looks to be the case.
#30
Posté 21 janvier 2011 - 06:50
qaerinju
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The entire argument for unarmed IS environment dependant
The entire argument for everything is environment dependent. How many servers are vanilla NWN? They're massively outnumbered by servers with changes to this that and the other. Long live variety.
#31
Posté 21 janvier 2011 - 07:37
Shadooow
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avado wrote
What has happened to nwn? In ECB we ALWAYS discussed based on GENERAL nwn, not specifics. The entire argument for unarmed IS environment dependant, which should tell you something. I am at a loss. I can only pray that nwn will not continue down this path, though it looks to be the case.
Good point qaerinju. In these days, if there is any module that do not have any custom items and any spell/class/feat changes, i eat my socks! Which is also reason why non of the build in ECB was for any good to me in past, when I couldn't build on my own. Now, I only look to search engine if there is that build I made up for the purpose. Looking inside the build always discovered pretty odd choices of stats/feats and skills.:innocent:
EDIT: I mean, even monsters are part of the environment, so every module has different one. Whats the vanilla build with scimitar to me when the module is full of undeads? Well thats propably another topic, but well you started it...
Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 21 janvier 2011 - 10:21 .
#32
Posté 22 janvier 2011 - 09:16
avado
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qaerinju wrote...
The entire argument for everything is environment dependent. How many servers are vanilla NWN? They're massively outnumbered by servers with changes to this that and the other. Long live variety.
I agree with that. The difficulty comes, when things like this come up (this thread), what do you discuss? Do you talk about the General, or a specific? Since the General is applicible to all, then it is best to talk about that. Regarding a specific server or mod, then that applies to ONE, which is best discussed on that mod or pws forum. Remember, this is nwn GENERAL forum.
That was why, in ECB since 2004, we talked about the General. When you understood the pw or mod, then it is a fairly trivial matter to tweak for that mod. It is, however, a very different story to try to go the other way (or it can be).
WIth regards to pw modifications, these used to kill populations on pws. We had PRC and no new people joined for long periods of time even though it was a truly amazing server. If that has changed, then it is a good thing for nwn, and it would explain alot about alot. This has been extremely humorous because I was always the one who played on Modified servers, yet I was educated in nwn character building enough to be able to talk vanilla or otherwise.
#33
Posté 27 janvier 2011 - 12:35
Shia Luck
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avado wrote...
qaerinju wrote...
The entire argument for everything is environment dependent. How many servers are vanilla NWN? They're massively outnumbered by servers with changes to this that and the other. Long live variety.
I agree with that. The difficulty comes, when things like this come up (this thread), what do you discuss? Do you talk about the General, or a specific? Since the General is applicible to all, then it is best to talk about that. Regarding a specific server or mod, then that applies to ONE, which is best discussed on that mod or pws forum. Remember, this is nwn GENERAL forum.
That was why, in ECB since 2004, we talked about the General.
Actually, in ECB everyone talks about a very specific set of circumstances. (+5 , no?) There's little doubt (IMHO, tho I might argue for +4) , that +5 and all the other restrictions are a very fair set of rules to discuss builds, but it is a specific set of rules. there's nothing 'general' about it.
... oh and 'general'? As in
NwN 1 General Discussion Forum , has a completely different meaning, no?
...A shame you didn't pay attention to the monk discussions on ECB, because then you would know where I got the information I posted from.
Then I tested it of course, and I repeat, for a given level of item (e.g. lvl21 items) you can get significantly more magic on gloves than on a weapon.Try it, no?have fun
