245 réponses à ce sujet

[Jaron Oberyn]

Googlesaurus wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Googlesaurus wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Adding a shooter element such as first person would shift the genre balance further towards the shooter genre due to the destruction of the cover system and the larger appeal to the shooter fanboys who will eventually wail for more shooter mechanics and less rpg mechanics. 

And the cover system is not a RPG mechanic, natch. A sucker is born every second on these forums. 

It's amazing the lack of comprehension that goes on in this thread. I won't waste my time. 

-Polite

Bolded for evidence. 

Sorry Polite but switching from a first-person view to third-person view is just a change in shooter mechanics, making your entire spiel and subsequent backtracking sad and pathetic. Or would you like to argue that Gears of War's cover system makes it more of a RPG than Halo? 

And where again did I explicitly say it was an RPG mechanic? Once again, I stated that the first person view addition would increase the appeal to the shooter fan base which will result in more diminishment of the RPG mechanics as we've seen in the second game of the trilogy. First person is more common and popular than Third person in the shooter genre due to franchises such as CoD and Halo. With the addition of first person view, what's next? Maybe we'll start getting more linear missions? How about more run and gun rather than tactical gameplay? How about the reduction of quality in the story mode while Bioware focuses more on multiplayer like MW2 and Halo Reach? Or better yet, how about a Mass Effect game every year like the CoD franchise? You can try to argue that it's not going to happen, but unfortunately given the current course it's going to happen eventually. Bioware IS designing their games to appeal more to the shooter crowd. If you don't see how this is evident, I suggest you go play one of their former games and compare them to their upcoming titles. Pretty soon you'll start to see a Bioware game that stresses more on the gameplay and combat mechanics than it does the story, which is what made Bioware the industry standard for RPG's.

-Polite 

[axl99]

Although I have the unfortunate case of first person shooter vertigo, I can empathize with the need of a first person toggle so long as the transition of 3rd to 1st person gameplay is seamless. Far as I remember, it's worked well enough for me in sniper mode when I'm playing infiltrator.



Other games already do FPS well. It'd be slightly out of character for ME to suddenly incorporate FPS elements in a way that won't alienate other fans in their already huge target demographic.



Off topic.



"Plenty of time" like 2 years might sound like a lot - especially if you're doing absolutely nothing but wait, but with things like revisions and bug fixes and all that jazz? You're lucky if you got about a year to work on your side of the production. And not all staff share the same schedule with their to-do list. Some people are on for a couple months, others for about half a year, others even longer.



Bioware doesn't really have that luxury. They got right back into production of the third game within a few months after ME2 was released. A Pixologic interview mentioned the character artists at the time were in the middle of prototyping new models for the next game. Now if we were to put an estimate of Q4 2011 as the somewhat general release date for ME3? I'd think it's more likely they'll still be working right up to the deadline as opposed to spacing out the whole thing in a longer timeframe.



Which in other words, there's a good chance they might not implement FPS for the sake of gameplay coherency. And the fact that up till now they haven't done many shooters.. ME1 and ME2 aren't enough.

[shumworld]

I'm not a big fan of First person shooters. A friend loan me Bioshock and I couldn't get into it after 5 hours of it. Third Person Shooter fix the problem I have with FPS.

[Googlesaurus]

Pacifien wrote...

I'm not understanding how first person perspective destroys the cover system. Thief was first person. It was entirely about staying within cover.

The main problem is that there is a lot more synergy between a third-person perspective and a cover system than a first-person perspective and said system. From the first, going into cover still allows the player to see their surroundings and the respective positions of enemies/allies. If Shepard goes into cover from a first-person POV, he'll either be staring at the floor or into the box itself.  

Thief was different: it was about staying in shadows and out of NPC line-of-sight, not direct shooting while hiding behind boxes.

[Pacifien]

I like to give BioWare the benefit of the doubt that they're designing games that they themselves wish to play, which may end up being the type of game that you do not wish to play.

[iOverRateD]

xXFadingXx wrote...

I like fps but it wouldn't work in MassEffect.

I agree, if i wanted FPS, i would go play COD or MW2.. The shooting in this game is awesome, and the cover system will be broken if you go FPS

[Pacifien]

Googlesaurus wrote...
The main problem is that there is a lot more synergy between a third-person perspective and a cover system than a first-person perspective and said system. From the first, going into cover still allows the player to see their surroundings and the respective positions of enemies/allies. If Shepard goes into cover from a first-person POV, he'll either be staring at the floor or into the box itself. 

Would take a bit of a learning curve to figure out the intricacies of the perspective. Can be done, but some people really don't want to have to fight the system all the time. Stick with what's familiar to allow one to focus on something else without headache.

I personally am an isometric top down perspective fan.

[Jaron Oberyn]

Pacifien wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...
It's not a personal attack since I expressed my statement in a plural sense. If expressing my discontent with the current status of the game qualifies as a "personal attack" then that's just fantastic.  It truly must be difficult to discern the meaning behind statements on the internet.

If you had said that you felt that adding first person shooter elements would ruin the series, that's one thing. To say it is a specific group of people who are ruining the series is another. You are blaming people based merely on their preferences.

Like Ms. Lovey Dovey, I see no problem with the mere discussion of a design element that could be put into the game. Does that make me a shooter fanboy? I get called one often enough for merely enjoying the combat of Mass Effect 2, but it's still assumptive. I don't own another shooter game, let alone being a fan of them.

What exactly was your intent?

My intent wasn't to provoke Ms. Lovey Dovey. It is a well established fact that the reduction of RPG elements in the second game was executed in order to appeal to the shooter fans. I play Halo and Call of Duty, yet I know the value of different genres. It adds to the variety of games. With ME2 becoming more of a shooter and less of an RPG it just becomes another shooter, and honestly how many do we need to have? I would rather Bioware remain consistent with what they do best instead of trying to branch out into a genre they have little experience in. Leave it to the developers who are experienced with shooters to develop shooters. Leave it to Bioware to develop RPG's with rich story telling. I have no problem with some shooter mechanics in the game, but when it costs us the RPG elements in return it becomes a problem. I bought the game because it was an RPG, not a shooter. ME2 was so much of a shooter it pissed me off. I have games for that. There aren't any other experienced RPG developers out there like Bioware, so I look to them to satisfy my RPG tastes. But now that they're starting to water down the RPG elements in favor for Shooter elements, how am I supposed to enjoy the trilogy that I started out in ME1? 

-Polite

[Legion 2.5]

No absolutely No and Sten agrees.

[Googlesaurus]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

And where again did I explicitly say it was an RPG mechanic? Once again, I stated that the first person view addition would increase the appeal to the shooter fan base which will result in more diminishment of the RPG mechanics as we've seen in the second game of the trilogy. First person is more common and popular than Third person in the shooter genre due to franchises such as CoD and Halo. With the addition of first person view, what's next? Maybe we'll start getting more linear missions? How about more run and gun rather than tactical gameplay? How about the reduction of quality in the story mode while Bioware focuses more on multiplayer like MW2 and Halo Reach? Or better yet, how about a Mass Effect game every year like the CoD franchise? You can try to argue that it's not going to happen, but unfortunately given the current course it's going to happen eventually. Bioware IS designing their games to appeal more to the shooter crowd. If you don't see how this is evident, I suggest you go play one of their former games and compare them to their upcoming titles. Pretty soon you'll start to see a Bioware game that stresses more on the gameplay and combat mechanics than it does the story, which is what made Bioware the industry standard for RPG's.

-Polite 

PoliteAssassin wrote...

Adding a shooter element such as first person would shift the genre balance further towards the shooter genre due to the destruction of the cover system...

Once again, how would the "destruction of the cover system" shift the genre balance towards the shooter aspect if it wasn't considered a RPG aspect? How would anything diminish RPG mechanics other than a direct lack of development? 

I agree with everything else that you said, and I don't want Bioware to embrace those features. But those are irrelevant to the issue: adding a first-person mode by itself will not ruin the RPG aspects. However, current gameplay mechanics would make it awkward to implement. Making it functional involves too many changes at this time.

Modifié par Googlesaurus, 23 décembre 2010 - 05:52 .

[sympathy4saren]

WHOA!!! A sexist because he says first person dumbed down? Ad hominems are always funny.



You see, every person has a different perspective on existence. Polite Assassin's view is his view. I happen to share that same perspective. As previously stated, many are concerned with the push for more fps elements in Mass Effect. While there were a lot of rpg elements in ME2, and combat was fun, many are pushing BioWare to add in more rpg elements, since it is an rpg. This demand is constructive in the sense that it creates a challenge that not only am I sure BioWare appreciates, since they are in my view the greatest game developer in the industry, but pushes the quality and quantity higher and higher. Sure, a plea for first person could be seen in the same light, but there will always be a contradictory argument depicting that that time spent in first person could have been directly spent on making a level or world design 10% more open or larger, or the like



As stated before, I saw previous pleas for more melee, co-op and multiplayer and now first person. What is a logical connection to those elements? First person shooter. While people have the ability to suggest those ideas, other people have the ability to slam those ideas, and relay fears.

[ArcanistLibram]

I don't see how it would contribute anything to the game.

[archurban]

don't bring COD blops or halo leak crap here. it will ruin entire game. of course, Bioware won't do it. it's story based RPG action game. if it is FPS, you can't even see Shepard by yourself. I don't want it. if you want FPS, don't buy ME game. go and play blops or something else.

[Jaron Oberyn]

Pacifien wrote...

I like to give BioWare the benefit of the doubt that they're designing games that they themselves wish to play, which may end up being the type of game that you do not wish to play.

I should remind you that EA owns Bioware now. So ultimately the decision lies with EA whether or not ME will be more of a shooter than and RPG. I don't necessarily blame Bioware, but EA since before they were acquired their RPG's were actually great masterpieces. It seems that now their standards of quality have gone down, and whether we like it or not EA's main priority is profit. Quality comes after that. I respect a game developer's justification to make the game the way they want it, but unfortunately EA's calling the shots now. As a result, future Bioware games will be what EA wants them to be. If they want shooter, it's a shooter. If they want action adventure, it's action adventure. 

-Polite

[Fortlowe]

Polite, that view is very limitiing. There is no room for experimentation or innovation with a dogma such as that. Bioware should branch out I think. FPS's, open world games, platformers, or even fighting games. Bioware's strength is not RPG's, it's storytelling. If they develop games in other genres based on that strength, then perhap's their RPG's would be all the stronger from that experience, no?

Modifié par Fortlowe, 23 décembre 2010 - 05:56 .

[Pacifien]

That's really all about personal preference and not something to blame fans of other genres for, Polite. I am a fan of BioWare starting with Baldur's Gate. I was an cRPG enthusiast starting with the Ultima series. I feel I can call myself an RPG fan, and I enjoyed ME2 well enough.



But I read that ME2 is not enough of an RPG. I read that the shooter element dumbed it down. What am I to think about my place in this argument? Is my enjoyment of the game that you so disliked of lesser value? If I wanted to, I'd argue that ME1 suffered well enough from lack of what I deem proper RPG elements.



As it is, I prefer to judge every game I play on its own merits regardless of genre. I'd do away with the whole labeling system, preferring that developers simply design what they felt was a good game regardless of whether it fit in one genre or another. But the last time I mentioned this, there were some who were adamant that such labels have their place in helping them know what sort of game they are getting. I'd think game footage and demos would help, but that's just me.



Really beside the point of this topic, though. I can't really picture the ME series in first person perspective, so don't have anything to add to that discussion.

[Pacifien]

Holy ****, when did EA buy out BioWare?!

[XxHYDROZILLAxX]

First and third person options would be nice. Bethesda always includes that. I would really love to see a shoulder switch option as well. The cover system is a little clunky and just slows me down. With shoulder switch I could just poke my gun around corners (left or right) while conceiling my body without having to take cover as much. In ME2 the only way to shoot from your left was to take cover and run all the way to the left side and then shoot. They stepped up the gunplay, now it's time to add this.

[Raanz]

I would be fine with it, if it didn't fundamentally change the game play.
What really gets my goat, is that most of the fans of 1st person perspective come into a game forum like this one, suggest it, then get pissed when someone doesn't like their suggestion. As a whole, 1st person fans would uniformly reject the notion of adding a 3rd person camera to one of their fav games.
Think about it, how many fans of Halo, or Killzone would shiat a two ton brick if a handful of 3rd person fans said "hey, how about adding a 3rd person camera to the game, just the option, that would be cool"?
Just curious.

More to the point though, I like the idea of being able to see my Shep, the time I spend in finding new gear, hell I want to see it.  It's a story driven RPG (loosely), there are plenty of traditional shooters out there.

Modifié par Raanz, 23 décembre 2010 - 06:06 .

[Ghost Lightning]

No.

[Googlesaurus]

Pacifien wrote...

Would take a bit of a learning curve to figure out the intricacies of the perspective. Can be done, but some people really don't want to have to fight the system all the time. Stick with what's familiar to allow one to focus on something else without headache.

I personally am an isometric top down perspective fan.

Fallout 3 already had a pretty good 1st/3rd system but it also had jumping and crouch to compliment them. ME2's cover and movement system is awfully restrictive without that freedom of movement. 

Modifié par Googlesaurus, 23 décembre 2010 - 06:07 .