175 réponses à ce sujet

[Piecake]

HallowedWarden wrote...

I think the only part of the Bethany/Carver situation that upsets me is the reveal that your class determines who lives and who dies. I, too, had a dream of playing apostate mage sibling to Bethany. I liked the idea of some mage sibling bond (or rivalry, perhaps) and hoped that would be the case.

My only problem now is this: the mage class is and has always been my favorite class, while I always tend to "save the female" if I can help it. Maybe it's some deep sense of chivalry or "women and children" first, but if I have to choose between saving a female and a male, I usually pick the female. The only exception is in Mass Effect as I don't want to unexpectedly romance Ashley again on a character that I have other romantic plans for in ME2. (Tali FTW!)

Perhaps the reason why they did this is that if you are a mage and got Bethany for a companion you'd simply be stuck with two characters that have the same storyline - repetitive.  With Carver, youll get something new

Modifié par Piecake, 24 décembre 2010 - 08:37 .

[Luzeka]

Why cant we just choose who wil die at that cutscene when it comes XD.I dont like Carver derp derp derp.

[Firky]

Can I just register that I think that this whole Bethany/Carver thing is great? That you miss out on a whole companion because of class is really brutal in an old school, OMG Keldorn just murdered Level 18 * very old spoiler - other follower* kind of way. Presumably Bethany and Carver aren't just clones of one another in terms of story/role in the game. At least one replay is now sold on me. I didn't start really appreciating Origins until the second time through.



Also, there's no reason to think that it would come across as "You are a mage. Your sister is a mage. Only one mage shall be allowed to pass." Surely most people would just think, "Oh noes. My sister just got smashed." and continue whacking darkspawn.



Unavoidably killing off a whole, detailed companion at the very beginning is a gutsy design decision IMO. That my blood mage, elf romanced Alistair in Origins and then dumped him with no consequences was a little disappointing. But, I do confess a personal taste for really brutal moments in RPGs.

[marshalleck]

Makes sense to me. Obviously they want the player to have some emotional tie to whatever is happening with mages in Thedas--that's no problem if Hawke is a mage, but if Hawke is not then you have a mage sibling to be concerned for, a reason to care about a major part of the story line. A personal commitment to it.

Modifié par marshalleck, 24 décembre 2010 - 09:21 .

[RogueWriter3201]

I must admit that this reveal in the article has me, for the most part, somewhat dissapointed with the possibility that simply because I prefer playing a Mage above all other classes I might not be able to have Bethany with me for my playthrough. For me, it's a very personal preference since I have several sisters in real life (no brothers) and the idea of being able to play Hawke and have my Mage sister with me along the way would have left me feeling much closer to my Hawke character.

Now, I always respect David's creative choices as they are almost always based in some brilliant frame of mind; however, if playing a Mage means I'm stuck with a Brother character I don't really want (I'm sorry, I'm sure he'll have an interesting story but I just have *no* interest in a male sibling) it will be perhaps my only true dissapointment in the game. There's several months till release, and the Article didn't reveal *everything* so I can only hope my fears will be proven unwarrented.

[Uhh.. Jonah]

We don't even know anything about the characters.

Bethany could be some crazy lunatic and Carver could be loyal and trustworthy.

[HiroVoid]

I agree with Bioware's decision.

[Piecake]

So, for example, let's say we have the theme of Dalish Elves struggling to reclaim their lost heritage. If that's a major theme in the story, then we want a follower to tell that story. They're ciphers, right? Players will not care about the issues unless there is a character that he or she cares about that cares about the issues. Otherwise it's too abstract. It's like saving the world. 'The world' is an abstract concept; saving the world doesn't really mean anything to you unless you're saving someone - a face - that you do care about. We use followers and other things in the game as potential hooks. We never know what, necessarily, the character will care about, so we offer lots of potential hooks, and we just need one of those to sink in. If none of them work, then we've failed. The player might enjoy the game, but he or she won't feel that emotional connection.

That was from a david gaider interview. From that, it really seems that if you have Hawke mage and Bethany you'd have two followers/ciphers/hooks telling the same story - that of the apostate mage. With Carver, we have the possibility of him being a cipher/hook for a different story.



I guess if they want to take the simple route it would be something like warrior/rogue hawke and Carver are the hooks for a particular story or themes within the game. Mage Hawke and Bethany are the hooks for the apostate story. If you had Mage hawke and bethany in your party you'd miss out on the warrior Hawke/carver story.



Perhaps Carver was added as a character so people who selected Mages didnt lose out on story content. I realize its all quite speculative, but i think it makes sense

[ISpeakTheTruth]

If that's true than we should still have the right to 'miss out' on some features if we want to have a game where you can be the class you want to be and have the Sibling that you want. Eventually a fan of the game will have multiple playthroughs and they could experiment with different siblings surviving and then compare it to the class they play. That way in a playthrough you could have a story that the Devs want you to hand and in another a game where you can have the story you want to have.

[Ziggeh]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

If that's true than we should still have the right to 'miss out' on some features if we want to have a game where you can be the class you want to be and have the Sibling that you want.

That's a little meta, and causes a problem for the apparent majority of players who only play the once. Perhaps a toggle would work.

[Piecake]

Ziggeh wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

If that's true than we should still have the right to 'miss out' on some features if we want to have a game where you can be the class you want to be and have the Sibling that you want.

That's a little meta, and causes a problem for the apparent majority of players who only play the once. Perhaps a toggle would work.

Don't they apparently have data that shows that most don't even finish the game?

[Ziggeh]

Piecake wrote...

Don't they apparently have data that shows that most don't even finish the game?

I believe so. But they're hard to design around, I imagine.

Well, other than making the main story shorter and beefing the sidequests. Maybe. Possibly.

[Piecake]

Ziggeh wrote...

Piecake wrote...

Don't they apparently have data that shows that most don't even finish the game?

I believe so. But they're hard to design around, I imagine.

Well, other than making the main story shorter and beefing the sidequests. Maybe. Possibly.

Oh, I wasnt advocating that.  I was just driving home the point that most players don't beat the game multiple times, so if there is an effective way for those playes to see more of the content on that playthrough than they normally would, I think it makes sense to do so. 

[Harid]

Only problem I have with this is it is something modders can choose to fix, yet something I cannot experience due to being on consoles.



I swear that Unreal Tournament on PS3 was mod-able. I suppose that's the problem with Xbox being the lead console. I suppose it's too much to ask that non X360 owners should not be penalized due to Xbox Live restrictions, eh.

[redloz]

I'm fine with it because it'll have genuine overall impact on the story arc. That makes it interesting. Looks like my dude Hawke will be a mage instead of a rogue however, if my fem hawke is a warrior. I can't just continually allow Carver to die.

[ladyofpayne]

I always play a fighter and love Beth. I have no choice.

[Saraphial]

I'm thinking that the bonus party member if you get the sig addition will be whoever would normally die according to your class, but instead you get to keep both of them. It makes sense if they are both written as permanent party members, but half of the players would only get to have one of them in their party.

[Maria Caliban]

Did you ever have to make up your mind?
Pick up on one and leave the other behind.
It's not often easy and not often kind.
Did you ever have to make up your mind?


Did you ever have to finally decide?
Say yes to one and let the other one ride.
There's so many changes and tears you must hide.
Did you ever have to finally decide?

[Ortaya Alevli]

Hawke and co. escape Lothering and make it to Kirkwall, everyone in one piece. There they get into a street fight with a bunch of qunari. Bethany casts a spell during the fight to fell the last one, and a templar passing by witnesses the incident. Bethany is identified as an apostate and promptly taken away to the Aeonar in Free Marches, namely Spellhold. Hawke spends a good chunk of game time trying to bail Bethany out, but during their journeys Carver gets to chat it up with Aveline on occasion and gradually becomes a Chantry sympathizer. When they finally make their way to Spellhold, Carver betrays the group and is killed in the ensuing fight, making room for Bethany in the party. Right after Bethany is rescued... alright, I have no idea how to connect the stolen souls part, so excuse me.

[SirGladiator]

Wow, this is just an incredibly awful decision, right up there with when they decided to kill Imoen in BG2. Happily that decision got changed when the fans helped them understand how horrible it was, I don't know if this one will get changed or not but at least there should be a way for modders to fix it pretty easily. The argument that somehow you aren't supposed to be knowledgeable/intelligent enough to figure out which one you like better, therefore you shouldn't be allowed to choose, is absurd for multiple reasons. Catering to the totally clueless and opinionless few at the expense of the vast majority who will either know a good deal or will (gasp) actually form an opinion without an approved level of knowledge of the characters simply makes no sense. The bottom line is if one of your siblings is going to die because of a decision that you make, that decision should NOT be 'what class do I want to play?' any more than it should be 'what gender do I want to be?', it should be a decision that we make within the game itself.



Of course the argument that it 'isn't really taking a choice away because you never had the choice in the first place' is again a good one so long as you're making it to small minds, who can't figure out the simple and logical reply 'But you did give us the choice, you simply gave us the wrong way to make it'. Nobody would've wanted it to be "Because I'm a Rogue, Leliana doesn't offer to join the party", or "Because I'm a Mage Flemeth doesn't give us Morrigan", obviously you could use the exact same logic to argue why they should have done that, and the logic is obviously flawed because we see for ourselves that we prefer having the choice over which teammates we get, class selection is 100% irrelevant to that.



Ultimately I'm going to prefer one over the other, I don't care if a random fan or Mr. Gaider himself feels I don't have enough information to be entitled to have an opinion, I'm going to have my opinion just the same, and I simply would like the ability to act on that opinion some way other than by being forced to alter my character's class in order to save the character I want to save. In a game that's all about making choices, that seems like a pretty reasonable request.

[Thicos]

I dont want them to die.

I want both alive. Oh my twin brothers, so cute hehehe



But, Bethany will die with me because I will be mage ^^

[Tiax Rules All]

I completely understand Biowares point of view but do not agree with it. If I want to be a mage and have Boobany i mean, Bethany with me I should have that choice.. (que, it was never a chioce) from Bioware..

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

I completely understand Biowares point of view but do not agree with it. If I want to be a mage and have Boobany i mean, Bethany with me I should have that choice.. (que, it was never a chioce) from Bioware..

Bioware RPG's are no longer about choice. They're about fast gameplay and forcing a predetermined plot down our throats. Welcome to EAWare, not that the whole "fixed protagonist" preference is really all that new.

[Piecake]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

I completely understand Biowares point of view but do not agree with it. If I want to be a mage and have Boobany i mean, Bethany with me I should have that choice.. (que, it was never a chioce) from Bioware..

It sounds that she is going to get deflated once you get past the exaggerated scene.  Apparently Varic is a horny perv

[Mykel54]

Do we know whenever Carver/Bethany are the younger sibling or the older? Or perhaps one is the younger and other the older, i haven´t read anything regarding this matter.