40 réponses à ce sujet

[Tigerking]

If they didn't keep their secrecy, they would get any recruits (most likely), and then no one would be able to kill an archdemon.

Also, if they went public with everything (vis-a-vis killing the Archdemon and the Joining), it would sound like the power-mad ravings of a blood-drinking cult.

They need their secrecy if the Wardens are to survive, it seems to me, and Jory's death, while unfortunate, simply guarantees the security of the Wardens.

[TrueShaitan]

The forcing people to join against thier will is called conscription, real life militaries do it in times of need, and for the blood drinking, the game explains why prospective wardens have to drink the blood.

[IanPolaris]

Tigerking wrote...

If they didn't keep their secrecy, they would get any recruits (most likely), and then no one would be able to kill an archdemon.
Also, if they went public with everything (vis-a-vis killing the Archdemon and the Joining), it would sound like the power-mad ravings of a blood-drinking cult.
They need their secrecy if the Wardens are to survive, it seems to me, and Jory's death, while unfortunate, simply guarantees the security of the Wardens.

 
I get it, but that makes we wonder why Anora seems to know all about it and why Virgil in DAA is allowed to administer the ritual.  Neither are wardens.  If they know and live, then Jory's death seems pointless.  Frankly I could tell almost from the moment he opened his mouth that Jory should never have been recruited at all.

-Polaris

[Glorfindel709]

"In peace, vigilance. In war, victory. In death, sacrifice." <-- pretty much tells you all you need to know about the Wardens.



They are a militaristic secret order, but I do agree that it almost seems unfair how much they dont tell recruits about joining. Dead within 3 decades, a higher cost of living bill for all the food you'll eat, and sacrificing yourself to kill the archdemon are all warning labels that should be taped to the Chalice.

[Glorfindel709]

I think we can all agree that Jory was not going to just turn tail and run. He was just going to keep going north until it became south and hit the Darkspawn horde from behind. They'd never expect it!

[IanPolaris]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

I think we can all agree that Jory was not going to just turn tail and run. He was just going to keep going north until it became south and hit the Darkspawn horde from behind. They'd never expect it!

Sten marvels at Jory's tactical brilliance.

-Polaris

[Glorfindel709]

I just finished Urn of Sacred Ashes on my current playthrough, it was fresh in my head >.> <.<

[White_Buffalo94]

He is a very wise man, and not insane in the slightest besides the impending doom he faces from the taint.

For one, he saves your life in all 6 origins. Two, killing Jory (I refuse to call him Ser, he is a coward) secured the Wardens existence. Duncan knows that if everybody knew they might die in the joining, they'd never get any recruits, and a war on the Wardens would also take place most probably.

The forcing of people into the Wardens is necessary. Would you prefer Thedas was overrun by Darkspawn?

[Glorfindel709]

No, but for Makers sake, a warning would be pleasant



I know my Warden would still have accepted, it was either that or be branded an apostate and have to deal with the oh so lovely torture of the templars

[IanPolaris]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

He is a very wise man, and not insane in the slightest besides the impending doom he faces from the taint.
For one, he saves your life in all 6 origins. Two, killing Jory (I refuse to call him Ser, he is a coward) secured the Wardens existence. Duncan knows that if everybody knew they might die in the joining, they'd never get any recruits, and a war on the Wardens would also take place most probably.
The forcing of people into the Wardens is necessary. Would you prefer Thedas was overrun by Darkspawn?

I would agree with this except for one small detail.  Apparently some non-wardens (specifically Anora and Virgil....and even Oghren in Awakenings) already know that you can die in the joining.  Since the secret is clearly out, what is gained by killing the nincompoop (Jory) other than the lulz?

-Polaris

[Quill74Pen]

IanPolaris wrote...

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

He is a very wise man, and not insane in the slightest besides the impending doom he faces from the taint.
For one, he saves your life in all 6 origins. Two, killing Jory (I refuse to call him Ser, he is a coward) secured the Wardens existence. Duncan knows that if everybody knew they might die in the joining, they'd never get any recruits, and a war on the Wardens would also take place most probably.
The forcing of people into the Wardens is necessary. Would you prefer Thedas was overrun by Darkspawn?

I would agree with this except for one small detail.  Apparently some non-wardens (specifically Anora and Virgil....and even Oghren in Awakenings) already know that you can die in the joining.  Since the secret is clearly out, what is gained by killing the nincompoop (Jory) other than the lulz?

-Polaris

You also have to consider the era in which Dragon Age takes place — it's a medievel setting, and if it's anything like Earth's medievel European period (and I suspect it is), ignorance and superstition run amok, with perhaps only some of the nobles having an idea of what really all goes into the Grey Wardens' joining ritual. Everyone else, well, let's just say that the free flow of information in the medievel period was all but nonexistent outside the occasional monastery and nunnery.

That said, I do suspect that the Grey Wardens drop hints to prospective recruits of the dangers they could face. Yes, the wardens do have the right of conscription, but from what I can tell, it's rarely invoked and, even when it is, it's even rarer for a *commoner* (such as Jory, knight or not) to be subject to it.

Quill74Pen

[IanPolaris]

Quill,



Virgil is a commoner.



-Polaris

[Quill74Pen]

Hmm. It's been a while since I played DAO, so I don't even remember a Virgil. Was he a major character? I know the Keep's seneschal knows of the ritual's details ... his name isn't Virgil, is it?

Quill74Pen

[CalJones]

I think he means Varel.

[IanPolaris]

CalJones wrote...

I think he means Varel.

Whoops.  I mean Varel, senschal of Vigil's keep.  Sorry.

-Polaris

[Quill74Pen]

**LOL** Yes, it's been a long day and night, hasn't it?

Quill74Pen

Edit: Oh, and in my first post in this thread (two or so posts above this one), I meant DAA, not DAO. After all, I'm playing a character through on DAO right now!

Modifié par Quill74Pen, 23 décembre 2010 - 07:50 .

[Nerolink]

IanPolaris wrote...

I think he means Varel.

Whoops.  I mean Varel, senschal of Vigil's keep.  Sorry.

-Polaris

I believe there is some dialogue from Awakening that states Varel was told of the Grey Warden protocols from the Orlesian Wardens stationed there when he was reinstated as Seneschal.

Modifié par Nerolink, 23 décembre 2010 - 07:51 .

[IanPolaris]

[quote]Nerolink wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

I think he means Varel.[/quote]

Whoops.  I mean Varel, senschal of Vigil's keep.  Sorry.

-Polaris[/quote]

I believe there is some dialogue from Awakening that states Varel was told of the Grey Warden protocols from the Orlesian Wardens stationed there when he was reinstated as Seneschal. [/quote]

This only begs the question of why Ser Jory was killed.  Are we to believe that the joining is such an important secret that would-be recruits have to be killed to keep it, and yet a non-warden will simply be told by a group of wardens (who have no prior idea that they will be wiped out) the entire secret?

One of these things can't be true.

-Polaris

[Ymladdych]

Well, Ser Jory *did* pull his weapon first, so we'll never know if Duncan advanced with an intent to kill. Maybe he just planned to incapacitate and force the blood down.

And I suppose you could always argue that a panicked recruit is a greater liability for bar room blabbing than a dedicated servant like Verel. It's a weak argument, I know, but it's one of those things that needs a little charity if you like the story. In truth, that secret would have been blown a long time ago.

Even voluntary recruits like Alistair get PO'd when they realize the degree of sacrifice, and then you've got all the people who were tainted against their will. It's kind of hard to believe that embittered wardens (or embittered spouses) wouldn't have already spilled the beans all over the place. It's a cool story on the whole, though, so I'm willing to suspend my disbelief.

Modifié par Ymladdych, 23 décembre 2010 - 08:41 .

[psychocandy]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

He is a very wise man, and not insane in the slightest besides the impending doom he faces from the taint.
For one, he saves your life in all 6 origins. Two, killing Jory (I refuse to call him Ser, he is a coward) secured the Wardens existence. Duncan knows that if everybody knew they might die in the joining, they'd never get any recruits, and a war on the Wardens would also take place most probably.
The forcing of people into the Wardens is necessary. Would you prefer Thedas was overrun by Darkspawn?

he doesnt save your life in all 6 origins

[Persephone]

I'll leave "The Calling" out of this but:

He strikes me as neither. For one, even I, a rookie, knew the moment I met Ser Jory that he should never have been recruited. I FACEPALMED that Duncan took the risk of letting Daveth go first, rather than Jory!! It was Daveth's death that caused Jory's complete meltdown after all. Duncan is ruthless. Ruthless enough to emotionally blackmail a dying man, watch innocent women being abducted to be raped etc. He would do ANYTHING to stop the Blight. As it must be.

[Leonia]

Duncan puts the "grey" in Grey Warden, for sure. That's the role he is supposed to fill.. he's supposed to make you think "Hey this isn't a group of noble and valiant knights or anything". And if you want to know more about him or why he is the way he is, I'd recommend reading The Calling.

As for why Anora knows about the ritual.. I suspect maybe Cailan knew about it (though I don't even remember Maric being told of it in the novels so not sure how Cailan would have known unless he had a super close relationship with Duncan). Varel is a bit more more obscure but I undrestand why they have him doing it Awakening.. we have a silent Warden remember? So they had to get somebody to do Joining ritual with a voice and Varel seemed like the right authority figure, I suppose (since there's no gurantee that Alistair lived through Origins, not that he knows how to do the ritual either. Maybe Riordan could have left some notes behind or something..).

Modifié par leonia42, 23 décembre 2010 - 10:51 .