83 réponses à ce sujet

[Falonthas]

the server i play alot on is polling on adding haks to give more options to dms and player alike

since 2002 this server has been hak free with a few overrides that can be used if you so choose

one of the greatest fears is haks will run off new potential players from logging in and trying out the server
 
so
my question is this to the community

Do Haks turn off new players from trying a server?

my response would be not in the least

[Tyndrel]

At it's simplest there are two types of new player, the first type is deliberately heading for your server, they know something about it, they like what they've heard and will therefore have downloaded the haks in readiness. The other type are folks who are browsing Gamespy for somewhere to play, they will only know what the mod description tells them and if it requires haks they will probably move on.
 
This is an old dilemma and really there is no right or wrong, if your game is good enough and popular enough to bring people in through your publicity or word of mouth then haks are great but if you are already struggling for players then chances are that having to download haks will make it worse.

Modifié par Tyndrel, 23 décembre 2010 - 10:32 .

[SuperFly_2000]

Falonthas wrote...

Do Haks turn off new players from trying a server?

I don't think so. At least not if your server has a well structured forum or homepage where this information is easy to find and all the links to the downloads are avaliable there.

Might sound easy...but obviously it is not...I tried out numerous servers where the above information was either impossible to find or in worst case even outdated. Also most servers do not explain how CEP really works...meaning that if the server requires CEP 2.3 it COULD also require earlier version...like 2.1...this can also lead to frustration and get players to "ragequit".


Having HAK's...and most importantly implementing them in a good way...(It is eays to stuff a server full of HAK's and harder to actually build something good with them)...is probably something that will make the server more popular.

Look at servers like Cormanthor. Although they started out totally fresh almost they have managed to get a player base almost like some of the most popular long standing servers...

Modifié par SuperFly_2000, 23 décembre 2010 - 01:27 .

[SuperFly_2000]

Voting about having HAK's or not seems like daft move if you excuse my bluntness...as this is a builder's decision firstmost...

[Baaleos]

Without having read the above responses -

Yes - Haks can diminish the amount of players who grace the front porch of your server.



Its just a technicality though.



A server with no hak requirements can be entered by ALL players

A server with hak requirements can only be entered by those who have those haks.



A note on CEP2.X

Because CEP2.X uses haks that are named along the same naming convention etc, you will find that

A server with cep2.1 installed, can be entered by cep2.3 clients. - Backwards compatability

A server with cep2.3 installed, can be entered by cep2.2 and maybe 2.1 clients, however, there exists the possibility of the client crashing if they enter an area which has placeables or tilesets not present in the clients hak.



There are some content types which are optional though, and I use these with my own server.

Music / BMU's

Sound Effects / WAV's



These, if stored in override folder, will not prevent players from entering the server, if they are not present, the players simply wont hear the content, but can still enter areas and the server itself.



In some ways, its kinda catch 22.

To get in the server, they need your content

To be notified about needing the content, they may need in your server - eg Notice Boards etc

[Falonthas]

actually i played on cormanthor when it was called myth drannor so it had a base already there they only had to shift servers when the admin shifted



and we are polling our playerbase because we have been around and in top percentage of players logged in since 03. afterall the dms and builders are players as well.

[ehye_khandee]

It is 100% logical that since a server that does not use haks can be joined by ALL of the NWN audience and servers WITH a hak requirement can only be joined by a SOME of the NWN audience, that having hak requirments DOES limit who can join.



Making your hak requirements more managable by linking to them from your forums, wiki, web, blog, etc. makes it more likely that those who are lacking your haks may download them and thus be able to join the server.



All this said, there are still a portion of the NWN audience who are purists and will not even consider downloading a hak. Most of them play on the more crowded servers such as ARELITH where both numbers that lure new PLAYERS to click and explore are met with a successful connection attempt. Once you get the new PLAYER through the door and started, usually, they will stay (if your content is worth anything at least).



All that said, I'll tell you, add haks ONLY if you need them.







Hope to see you online.



Be well. Game on.

GM_ODA

66.232.100.90

cep2.1 or better required

24x7 we bring the game!

aldohral.forumotion.com

[NorthWolf]

Knowing about Cormanthor, it's not a great example here. It had a built in population and was prone to success since their haks are a modification of the pre-existing Myth Drannor haks (as Falonthas said). I'm glad to see they're doing well, but they definitely had the advantage of an existing and active community.



That being said, the decision of adding haks is largely based on what you want your server to accomplish in my experience. If you add a good deal of high quality content that makes the big download worthwhile, publicity might fill your sails enough for you to garner a community, and then your haks are worthwhile additions. Alternatively you can just run CEP (or even base NWN) and get a good source of players because you're accessible.



Since the server is already established from the sounds of it, your players are likely to stick around either way, but I could be wrong. I'm sure other people have opinions.

[TSMDude]

*rolling eyes at some contents up above from our resident downer as builders need players and players need builders.*
 
If you do do haks this is a cool tool I have been looking at that helps streamline the proccess a bit I think.

Server Custom Content Downloader / Updater

The nwn server updater is a java program designed provide players with an easy way to download and stay up to date on the custom content used in the servers they play. It works by downloading a text file hosted by the server admin which contains a list of the files required to play on their server. It then compares this file to the files in your nwn directory and downloads any of the files you don't have. Once finished, it places the files in the correct folder so you are ready to play as soon as it's finished.

Please take a look at the readme before using this program.

Latest Version: 0.2 beta

Special Thanks to Zunath and his teams at Solar Odyssey Online and Revenge of the Dead for their help in designing and testing this program.


If this works as advertised I think this is a great tool and am glad it is out there.

[ehye_khandee]

Sorry to be a downer but it stands to reason, if your 'draw' (percentage of viewers who take your offer) is pitched to a smaller group, you will get less total takers. This assumes you have the same level of appeal with the module and pitch. The groups outlined in my other post indicated that the smaller group are those 'amenable to haks' vs the whole group of nwners which is the larger group. Pitched against these two groups the larger group should provide a greater response, all else being equal. It's just numbers.

[HipMaestro]

Falonthas wrote...
Do Haks turn off new players from trying a server?

I'll speak for what I believe to be an extreme minority, yet nonetheless has some impact.

It's the fraternity/sorority of low-speed connection users like myself about which I refer.  And in those cases, the answer can definitely be a "Yes", depending on the size of the hak, so let me explain my rationale which may reflect other connection-challenged attitudes in the community.

If the server has an excellent rep and thorough documentation, folks like myself may venture into the realm of constant drop-outs and overnight DLs in an attempt to obtain the necessaries.  However, a newly-birthed server with similar hak requirements is simply not worth all the aggravation.  It becomes a matter of expediency then and I for one am not getting any younger.

If a small hak, then the answer is likely "No" since the process requires few additional resources and merely customizes the basic content a bit.

Albeit a bit off-topic, trying out custom content in general, faces the same hurdle as a PW.  The modules that provide short, non-epic type content would be the last to consider since it essentially takes longer to download the hak then play the game itself.  Longer-spanning content makes it more attractive.  Of course, quality of content is important and in many ways the equalizer in these situations.

So to cut to the chase, for the low-speed connection audience probably "Yes", high-speed folks probably "No". At least, I can state that were it not for the limitations of dial-up, I wouldn't care myself if a server required haks or not. If it adds some interesting innovations it is well worth the little bit of extra effort to set up the proper environment.

Modifié par HipMaestro, 23 décembre 2010 - 09:34 .

[FunkySwerve]

To answer the original question, yes, adding haks will cut into your initial visits. This is a simple fact. It was because of this that the CEP was set up - to create a pool of custom content that a larger portion of the community would have access to. If the content you want is in the CEP, then it is, in my book, a great compromise. If not, you'll have to decide whether the benefit of the haks is worth what it costs you in players - a difficult call to make without knowing how many it will cost you up front. My gut feeling is that that number is fairly large - players are less willing to invest substantial amounts of time (both set-up and play) of older games. Of course, that's less true of those remaining in the nwn community now than it once was - they're still playing nwn, obviously.



For our part, we've gone to great pains to avoid using any hak but CEP, which we feel represents a good compromise. You can do a LOT of custom stuff without adding haks - more if you use CEP, which has a blank 'custom' hak you can fill with your own stuff, allowing players to log in regardless if they have your version of it or the bank version (name, not content, is checked). If you keep your custom content outside of beginning areas, you can then allow them to demo the server without having to download your version of the custom hak. Obviously, that won't work with ALL customizations, but it will for many.



Funky

[Eradrain]

As a player, I refuse to try any server unless they have custom, server-specific haks. The CEP just isn't enough for my tastes, and no haks of any kind is frankly repugnant to me, I think that defeats the point that makes NWN great to begin with.



So, for me at least, it's the opposite. The lack of haks will immediately prevent me from trying a server. Having several gigs of custom haks, some new spells and classes, that sort of thing, will draw me in.

[The Amethyst Dragon]

As an admin of a PW with some rather large custom haks (plus the CEP), I can say that yes, they definitely do cut down on the number of casual server-hoppers dropping in.  It's a time investment for those that want to just check out a PW, and that can turn quite a few people off from a PW.

I think that having clear information regarding getting the haks, and having a website/screenshots of some of what is offered in the haks, can make it more likely that someone might be willing to download the files to log in.  But even such enticements and ease of downloading won't work on many potential players.

I accept this fact and live with it.  My world's players do get to enjoy new things that come with using custom haks, so I continue to use them (and I'm constantly adding new things to them as time passes).  Personally, I couldn't continue to build my PW (or retain any interest in it myself) if I didn't have the ability to add pretty much anything visual or 2da related that I want to it.  Going without haks would mean missing out on the chance to use practically anything that's been developed by the community in the last 8 1/2 years, and it would mean my PW would end up visually looking pretty much like every other PW.

[FunkySwerve]

Eradrain wrote...

So, for me at least, it's the opposite. The lack of haks will immediately prevent me from trying a server. Having several gigs of custom haks, some new spells and classes, that sort of thing, will draw me in.

You don't need to have custom hacks for this beyond the cep_custom hak. We have oodles of custom spells, for example, by this method. That way, players can sample the server and determine if it's worth their time to download additional content.

Funky

[NorthWolf]

I'm in Eradrain's boat, though probably for different reasons. To me it's about genre, and I roleplay a lot. The additional models, tilesets, etc. you get from custom content feel necessary for Neverwinter Nights to stay fresh to me; after all, a lot of my play time is spent standing around looking at other people and the scenery, and without some jazzing up it gets old fast. Even the CEP, which adds awesome content, isn't enough; I've seen its steady progression over the years and become accustom to the content it offers the same way I'm accustom to the base clothing you get in Neverwinter Nights.



That isn't to say other people can't appreciate visuals, just you're a lot more likely to if you're not busy contending with PvM or PvP gameplay to want prettier stuff.

[Kniva Knobbyknees]

Having played NWN forever and a day (has it been that long?) I will say that haks "can" be a deterent. If you use a hak, its best to mention the hak as upfront as possible. I log into a PW with no mention of a hak (and I get punted) I tend to never return.

If you plan to use a hak, then the most up to date CEP seems like the most logical one to use when you are building a PW.



That said ... there are still alot of old PWs that were around before CEP.

[Falonthas]

ok some are misreading - the PW im speaking of has been around since 2003 and is in its 4th version due to the very gifted scripting and building team. of course you can only build so much with the base content, which is why we began to think about adding haks as a community

[NorthWolf]

As I said earlier, most people won't leave over the addition of haks to a server if they've invested time in it. I've seen twice where a community got all up in arms about the addition of haks, but neither time did I see a decrease in player count at the end of everything. That's just me, though; other people might have different experiences.

[kalbaern]

NorthWolf wrote...

As I said earlier, most people won't leave over the addition of haks to a server if they've invested time in it. I've seen twice where a community got all up in arms about the addition of haks, but neither time did I see a decrease in player count at the end of everything. That's just me, though; other people might have different experiences.

I totally agree and have witnessed the same. There will undoubtably be an initial uproar, but once the fruit of your labors starts to be seen by players, they'll forget all about it and want more.

Since your module uses all standard tilesets though, I think adding the CEP 2.3 is the best option, at least as a start. For a module being built from scratch, I'd recommend even more haks depending on the campaign setting. The thing I like the most about the CEP for an otherwise vanilla module is that their tileset additions can be added as both stand alones and extensions. The extensions option would allow you to update many of your pre-existing maps without having to completely replace them instead. There are two rather large PWs doing just this right now infact.

[TSMDude]

As a builder I love haks. LOVE them. I think as NWN gets older we will see more folks being okay with haks and outnumbering those who do not.



As Admin of a PW we do not use anything besides CEP at the moment. Would we lose players? Probally not as we started with a optional override and it went over rather well. Yet you do lose the drop in guy to see what it is like but honestly as the game ages there is less of those and more just Base.



With Barry being down and out and CEP slowly regrouping I am hoping that the Custom Content guys will get together as one massive force and merge thier fab work together for the good of the Community. (nudge nudge...I would even bake you guys cookies!)

[omen_shepperd]

It would be really cool to see the cep and prc unify into one set of haks.

[Jenna WSI]

I haven't read all the replies, but we did poll this extensively for our server to make the same decision. The answer seems to be that you loose and gain players from haks. Some people don't want to download custom content to try a new server, and some players refuse to login to a server that does not have haks and custom content. The question is really more about what kind of players you're looking to attract.

[HipMaestro]

Jenna WSI wrote...
....clip...

The question is really more about what kind of players you're looking to attract.

Kudos!  That capsulates it about as good as can be.  It's seems a difficult decision to make so my question is: what is the proportion of new samplers vs. innovation-seeking vets?  Perhaps the availability  of sites like GoG will change the ratio in the future?

[FunkySwerve]

The ratio isn't great, but it's a lot more vet-heavy, to use your terms, than it used to be, and will continue to become moreso as the game changes. I seriously doubt adding haks (other than CEP) will ever net you more players than going without, but it almost definitely costs you fewer than it once did.



At the risk of beating a dead horse, though, it's not a decision that's nearly as costly now as it used to be, either, with the addition of the CEP custom hak. With that, you can stow an enormous amount of custom content for access in your mod, without it costing you any players that that have the CEP. Spells, custom classes, custom icons, and much more are all available through this method in vanilla nwn. We've actually added vfx and item properties to that list as well on HG, though it took some engine edits in order to create alternate vfx for those without our custom hak, and to make those item props not show as badstrref for them. Likewise, you can even add tilesets, though you would need some way to prevent those without your custom hak from entering such areas - we haven't managed that yet.



Unless you're eying a really large number of custom content items, packing them into CEP's custom hak is likely the best tradeoff of added content / player loss you're going to see.



Funky