83 réponses à ce sujet

[Eradrain]

FunkySwerve wrote...

You don't need to have custom hacks for this beyond the cep_custom hak. We have oodles of custom spells, for example, by this method. That way, players can sample the server and determine if it's worth their time to download additional content.

Funky

This is going to be my only post on this subject, because I don't want to derail the thread, but...

If your custom spells don't appear in the spellbook along with the default spells, if your custom classes don't show up at the level-up screen alongside the standard classes, if you're using workarounds of any kind to cut down on haks and custom talk tables, if the functionality of your custom spells/feats/classes works even one iota differently than the basic functionality of the game, then by my book, it's not a server worth trying.  Nothing breaks my immersion more than scripted workarounds, that's just the way I personally am.  Nothing screams "AMATEUR" to me like a server that opted to use workarounds, whether in the interest of being accessible to hak-unfriendly players or from lack of developer know-how, instead of using 2da haks and .tlks to properly implement this kind of content.

I don't know what the CEP Custom hak is because I've avoided the CEP for a long time now, but I do know that though you can change spells and feats around with 2das, you can't properly implement brand new, custom spells, feats and classes without a custom talk table.  Saying anything different is just misleading, because it's a work-around, and not the genuine article.

Modifié par Eradrain, 29 décembre 2010 - 01:10 .

[kalbaern]

Eradrain wrote...

FunkySwerve wrote...

You don't need to have custom hacks for this beyond the cep_custom hak. We have oodles of custom spells, for example, by this method. That way, players can sample the server and determine if it's worth their time to download additional content.

Funky

This is going to be my only post on this subject, because I don't want to derail the thread, but...

If your custom spells don't appear in the spellbook along with the default spells, if your custom classes don't show up at the level-up screen alongside the standard classes, if you're using workarounds of any kind to cut down on haks and custom talk tables, if the functionality of your custom spells/feats/classes works even one iota differently than the basic functionality of the game, then by my book, it's not a server worth trying.  Nothing breaks my immersion more than scripted workarounds, that's just the way I personally am.  Nothing screams "AMATEUR" to me like a server that opted to use workarounds, whether in the interest of being accessible to hak-unfriendly players or from lack of developer know-how, instead of using 2da haks and .tlks to properly implement this kind of content.

I don't know what the CEP Custom hak is because I've avoided the CEP for a long time now, but I do know that though you can change spells and feats around with 2das, you can't properly implement brand new, custom spells, feats and classes without a custom talk table.  Saying anything different is just misleading, because it's a work-around, and not the genuine article.

You've misunderstood Funky's post. He's claiming to offer just what you ask for. However, it's optional. His use of the CEP Custom hak allows folk to log in with nothing more so they can "get a quick feel". Downloading his version of the CEP Custom hak (which is normally a blank placeholder to players) will enable the extras you're looking for.

I don't however recommend this myself. I and many others use the custom hak as a serverside tool and PWs using it as a player hak can cause conflicts for players that play on multiple modules. (I am assuming Funky's version does have a custom tlk in it for their spells ... if not .. He'll correct me. ).

[Eradrain]

Okay, but you don't just need a hak to implement things like custom spells correctly. You need a custom talk table, too. Therein lies my confusion. Talk tables aren't packaged in haks.

[FunkySwerve]

kalbaern wrote...
You've misunderstood Funky's post. He's claiming to offer just what you ask for. However, it's optional. His use
of the CEP Custom hak allows folk to log in with nothing more so they can "get a quick feel". Downloading his version of the CEP Custom hak (which is normally a blank placeholder to players) will enable the
extras you're looking for.

Bingo. I'm surprised someone so willing to toss around the word 'amatuer' didn't understand that. And yes, we use a custom tlk for that, and all sorts of things - most recently, for adding additional 'Master Feat' categories, since we use them to sort our legendary leveler feats into like-named subfolders. Speaking of that leveler, while players without the custom hak see 'amateurish' workarounds like commands to list their custom feats taken, players with the hak see the feats in their character sheet, custom icons and all. Going the extra mile to serve a broader slice of the community, by catering to dedicated players,custom content fans and casual droppers-by alike, is not the mark of an amateur, but of someone interested in getting the best of both worlds. Which, of course, is why that custom hak is so darned handy.

I don't however recommend this myself. I and many others use the custom hak as a serverside tool and PWs using it as a player hak can cause conflicts for players that play on multiple modules. (I am assuming Funky's version does have a custom tlk in it for their spells ... if not .. He'll correct me. ).

That's true, but that problem is inherent in the nature of the hak itself, not our particular use of it (our spells.2da, for example, wouldn't cause anyone else any problems, as it's identical to the bioware one for the publicly available spells, save for, I think, a couple range fixes).  I think the CEP team understood this potential problem when they added it, but did so anyway, because of the enormous upsides. We also haven't had any players complain about the kind of crossover issues you mention, though I do understand the potential. That may simply be because we have our own integrated installer.

Dumping extra serverside content into it is of limited usefulness, given the availability of tools like virusman's resman, available to both win and lin hosts, that allow you to squirrel away all the additional resources your little heart desires. We have a few thousand uti's tucked away ourselves in this fashion. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]

Funky

Modifié par FunkySwerve, 29 décembre 2010 - 05:11 .

[NorthWolf]

Personally I dislike the CEP custom hak being used that way for the same reason I dislike overrides: it causes problems when you're playing elsewhere. So I'm in Kalbaern's boat here. Furthermore, anyone willing to download the gargantuan CEP will probably survive the download of a comparatively small 2da/tlk package.

[kalbaern]

Thanks for clearing that up Funky. (as I knew ya would ) So you're also overwiting the CEP tlk as well and not using one renamed to something different if I understand correctly?

[FunkySwerve]

kalbaern wrote...

Thanks for clearing that up Funky. (as I knew ya would ) So you're also overwiting the CEP tlk as well and not using one renamed to something different if I understand correctly?

Exactly. We ramp up our tlk numbers pretty high to avoid future conflicts, as well, preserving the original CEP tlk values. Really, nothing we're doing should be causing conflicts with other servers, by design, though that may of necessity change when we get around to adding favored soul and other new base classes (that's pending some engine hacks). Of course, any server that does this may conflict with any other, but that's more of a built-in cost to the benefits offered by this approach, and it shouldn't impinge at all on those just using it for serverside content, or interfere with playing on other servers using vanilla CEP haks.

Funky

Modifié par FunkySwerve, 29 décembre 2010 - 06:44 .

[Eradrain]

FunkySwerve wrote...


Bingo. I'm surprised someone so willing to toss around the word 'amatuer' didn't understand that.

I did understand that, actually.  As I made clear in my second post, it was the lack of any mention of a custom .tlk that threw me off.  You said that you made custom classes and spells possible with a cep_custom hak.  You did not mention the requisite .tlk anywhere in your original post to me, only in your subsequent follow-up.  In fact, you didn't even respond to my second post which elaborated my confusion, you elected to ignore it entirely.

Thanks for insulting me in two threads, now, though.  I appreciate it.

Modifié par Eradrain, 29 décembre 2010 - 07:42 .

[TSMDude]

Eradrain, you offended ALOT of folks with the use of the word "amatuer."



Alot.



Many of us pour countless hours away from our families into this and then someone comes along and dismisses what we do because we do not use something you approve of is insulting in the extreme.

[kalbaern]

TSMDude wrote...

Eradrain, you offended ALOT of folks with the use of the word "amatuer."

Alot.

Many of us pour countless hours away from our families into this and then someone comes along and dismisses what we do because we do not use something you approve of is insulting in the extreme.

I would agree with TSMDude. While not having a custom TLK or other "workarounds" that you might consider to "scream AMATUER", some PWs do indeed use these methods precisely to assist those that panic over using/installing haks or have other complications (such as many MAC users run into). In my own opinion, this speaks to being professional and recognizing the needs of some folks players bases and is a conscience choice some of us make. Some of us simply have a mature following of great players that cannot afford the latest and greatest systems to play on or when they do, turning on their computers and clicking a launch icon is the upper range of their computing skills. So we make exceptions and accomodations. That's not being amatuerish, its called being caring and accomodating.

I've explored many a PW that meet the qualifications of having lot's of custom spells, classes, feats, etc... along with great tileset haks that were simply stunning to walk around on. Many however lacked creativity beyond that though. Broken quests, lots of unconnected transitions, wilderness and dungeons lacking themes and consistant flow and focused instead soley on loot and random monsters with seemingly random abilities is what I'd deem "less than professional" myself. PWs that allow unlimited inane and random sillyness over the shout channel I avoid, despite any stunning visuals on my screen. Then again, there's room for all types in NWN and that's the beauty of this game. Its far outlasted its projected longevity because of the myriad of contributors enhancing it and keeping it going over all these years.

Lastly, we're all also "amatuers" in the truest sense of the word, since none of us here get paid for our work. Not in currencey at least. Happy players is its own reward in the end.

**Addendum**

While many responses to a post might be considered as "talking down" to someone, I like that folk like "Funky" along with many others go into long and sometimes overblown explanations. They aren't always responding to just "me" or "you", but are instead trying to explain things for folk of ALL knowledge levels. I've had responses to my own questions and comments over the years that made me grumble and think "just how big an idiot does so-and-so think I am", but one day it dawned on me. "They" don't know how big an idiot I may be firstly as we've never met and secondly, I began to recall previous topics I'd read but not responded to or started myself wherein I was the idiot and the overblown explanations added to my knowledge and I was thankful. So I try and just ignore that facit nowadays and assume that most responses are meant as much for the OPs as they are the public at large.

Modifié par kalbaern, 29 décembre 2010 - 04:47 .

[Balduvard]

With the prevalence of broadband connections growing throughout the life of the game, downloading additional content packages is not as onerous a process as it may have once been. There still exists the issues of finding the content to be downloaded (if a server does not provide a link in their module description) and correctly "installing" the content. Additionally, as has been mentioned, content packages may not be compatible with each other; I ended up writing my own batch file to enable me to select and shuffle around content packages depending on the server I wanted to play on.

To echo a previous comment, if you do intend to use custom content in your module, I would hope that the content is used to its fullest and is not solely relied on, to the detriment of good module design practices.

[FunkySwerve]

Eradrain wrote...

FunkySwerve wrote...
Bingo. I'm surprised someone so willing to toss around the word 'amatuer' didn't understand that.

I did understand that, actually.  As I made clear in my second post, it was the lack of any mention of a custom .tlk that threw me off.

THAT is precisely what I'm referring to when I said you didn't understsand 'that' - the use of a custom .tlk in addition to the hak, which kal had to explain to you - look up, if you're forgetting.

You said that you made custom classes and spells possible with a cep_custom hak.  You did not mention the requisite .tlk anywhere in your original post to me, only in your subsequent follow-up. 

I made no mention of it because haks, not tlks, are the subject of this thread. I credited you with the knowledge that a tlk was required, and avoided explaining as much, because I've seen how sensitive you can be when you feel someone is 'talking down' to you because they're explaining things you already know - even when it's for the benefit of others reading the thread, and not just you.

Curiously, since you say you DID know that, you chose to assume I wasn't using a tlk, and thus wasn't doing things 'properly', and was somehow 'misleading' people:

Eradrain wrote...

I don't know what the CEP Custom hak is because I've avoided the CEP for a long time now, but I do know that though you can change spells and feats around with 2das, you can't properly implement brand new, custom spells, feats and classes without a custom talk table.  Saying anything different is just misleading, because it's a work-around, and not the genuine article.

Kal, by contrast, absent whatever motive lead you to make such an ungenerous assumption, correctly surmised that I was in fact using a tlk.

In fact, you didn't even respond to my second post which elaborated my confusion, you elected to ignore it entirely.

Do you think perhaps that's a result of how you've reacted to my responses in the past (not to mention this response)? 

Thanks for insulting me in two threads, now, though.  I appreciate it.

So if I explain too much, I'm insulting you, and if I explain too little, I'm insulting you. Yet it's somehow ok for you to call people 'amateurs' and accuse them of misleading people based on nothing but an erroneous assumption? I think I'll just get a moderator now...

Funky

Modifié par FunkySwerve, 29 décembre 2010 - 08:29 .

[kalbaern]

Balduvard wrote...

With the prevalence of broadband connections growing throughout the life of the game, downloading additional content packages is not as onerous a process as it may have once been. There still exists the issues of finding the content to be downloaded (if a server does not provide a link in their module description) and correctly "installing" the content. Additionally, as has been mentioned, content packages may not be compatible with each other; I ended up writing my own batch file to enable me to select and shuffle around content packages depending on the server I wanted to play on.

To echo a previous comment, if you do intend to use custom content in your module, I would hope that the content is used to its fullest and is not solely relied on, to the detriment of good module design practices.

While downloading is less ponderous for most of us, I still run into folk that either because of finacial or geographic limitations, do not have high speed access. I suspect this is more a phenomenon of Low Magic RP servers though.  Since many PWs are more than simple modules and infact resemble more closely a community of like minded individuals and friends, often times an Admin/Builder will purposely do something in a "backwards" manner so as not to eliminate the albeit minority of players with these issues. (I have one old MAC user and two with dial up connections I mail CDs too now when updating as my own compromise)

The decision to use CEP or Project Q or custom haks of your own or others makings all comes down to the players you have and those you'd like to gain. We're I creating a brand new PW tomorrow, I'd likely use all custom haks for all or most of my tilesets along with a merge of both CEP and Project Q mainly for their combined appearance options. (I don't think a day passes I don't consider taking a couple months off of work to remake my entire module using only tilesets by "six_thrice" and "Maxam" )

[NorthWolf]

Personally I've always managed to crawl through to the finish line even when my connection was utterly pathetic, but I think that might just be due to the fact I a lot of the custom content available and am willing to drool mindlessly watching a status bar for several hours.

Modifié par NorthWolf, 29 décembre 2010 - 09:07 .

[kalbaern]

NorthWolf wrote...

Personally I've always managed to crawl through to the finish line even when my connection was utterly pathetic, but I think that might just be due to the fact I a lot of the custom content available and am willing to drool mindlessly watching a status bar for several hours.

Seems like decades since I've needed to use one, but ... there are programs that allow you to resume downloads after pausing or disconnecting.

[Selene Moonsong]

Different thread, same warning. It is okay to have differing opinions, but it is not acceptable to be insulting each other. Cease the name calling or those involved will be granted a short vacation from the forums.

Modifié par Selene Moonsong, 30 décembre 2010 - 12:41 .

[MingWolf]

Do Haks turn off new players from trying a server?

Speaking for myself, I do not mind haks so long as they actually add to gaming experience and so long as I do not have to download a thousand different files just to play on one server/world.

[Aesir Rising]

Falonthas wrote...

... hak free with a few overrides

...

Do Haks turn off new players from trying a server?

Haks don't bother me. Overrides do.

Overrides create conflicts that inconvenience the potential player as he roams around different servers looking for his next big thing.

[Xovian]

Long time player of this game (got at release for all 3 versions).

I remember very well when CEP first started becoming popular.
I avoided it like the plague, and servers that required it, I refused to enter.
The reason?
I didn't trust it, or understand how Haks work with NWN.

When I started building, and scripting, my knowledge base about the core of the game grew wider and wider, and eventually I started looking into things like Haks and Overrides to see if I could understand how to use or even make them.

I was quite surprised when i first downloaded CEP, that all I had to do was put it in the Hak folder and that was it. I mean...folder...done. That simple. You'd be surprised how many people do not under stand that, because I myself and I know of several others who didn't. Making sure such simplicity is explained can also make it so much easier. Many PW's simply do not do this, and it hurts them more then they know I would wager.

I will add one final thing, given that many haks come and go (same for overrides), if you have a module, PW or anything whether here on the downloads of this forum, or on the vault, include them WITH the haks required. It requires you to load one extra file besides the module. Module and haks it needs, this makes it so much easier for people to jump into a game they have an interest in. If they are reading about a module/PW, odds are they are interested, don't run them off by linking 20 different things when you can go to your own folder and .rar or .zip it yourself so its all there. No muss, no fuss and no problems for people who might be worried about other updates to the various haks.

If I had known what I know now, I would have played many modules I missed (many are gone with time now) and I would have built some much better modules myself too in those early days had I know how good some haks can actually be for a game (CEP for my example). Keep in mind, I did start using CEP once 2.2 came out, but that was a decent gap before I even tried using haks.

Food for thought.

Modifié par Xovian, 16 janvier 2011 - 03:18 .

[Kail Pendragon]

ehye_khandee wrote...

Sorry to be a downer but it stands to reason, if your 'draw' (percentage of viewers who take your offer) is pitched to a smaller group, you will get less total takers. This assumes you have the same level of appeal with the module and pitch. The groups outlined in my other post indicated that the smaller group are those 'amenable to haks' vs the whole group of nwners which is the larger group. Pitched against these two groups the larger group should provide a greater response, all else being equal. It's just numbers.

Those ain't correct numbers, nor correct logical reasoning. There's the group of those who will play only hak-less PWs, those that will play only hak-ed PWs and those who play both. Since you do not have the numbers of the first and second group, you have no way to support your statement. I see that you haven't yet grasped what you have been told many moons ago. I'm not surprised.

[TripleAught]

My thoughts pretty much align with everyone that has said "Make the most of any haks you use".



But what I'm really interested to know if if your world decided to go with haks or not? And what pushed you to that final decision?

[ehye_khandee]

Kail Pendragon wrote...

ehye_khandee wrote...

Sorry to be a downer but it stands to reason, if your 'draw' (percentage of viewers who take your offer) is pitched to a smaller group, you will get less total takers. This assumes you have the same level of appeal with the module and pitch. The groups outlined in my other post indicated that the smaller group are those 'amenable to haks' vs the whole group of nwners which is the larger group. Pitched against these two groups the larger group should provide a greater response, all else being equal. It's just numbers.

Those ain't correct numbers, nor correct logical reasoning. There's the group of those who will play only hak-less PWs, those that will play only hak-ed PWs and those who play both. Since you do not have the numbers of the first and second group, you have no way to support your statement. I see that you haven't yet grasped what you have been told many moons ago. I'm not surprised.

Kail, go borrow a working brain and see if you can wrap it around this :

Those servers which have NO haks can be joined by any nwn player, therefore is a larger group, in fact the largest group as it represents 'all nwn players'. Those servers which use haks can only be joined by persons from the first group, who also have the hak (or are willing to obtain it). This will always, and by necessity be a smaller group, since it is a sub-set of the first group.

You are right, I don't bother grasping what is inherently wrong. You should try it sometime.

[Karvon]

TripleAught wrote...

My thoughts pretty much align with everyone that has said "Make the most of any haks you use".

But what I'm really interested to know if if your world decided to go with haks or not? And what pushed you to that final decision?

As a builder/DM, I want to have access to certain CC to enhance my view of what my mod will look like. While you can certainly tell stories with just the basics, and perhaps CEP, some tilesets or whatever, can really help bring your world to life. Thus, I normally make use of additional haks in my campaigns.

Karvon

[kalbaern]

TripleAught wrote...

My thoughts pretty much align with everyone that has said "Make the most of any haks you use".

But what I'm really interested to know if if your world decided to go with haks or not? And what pushed you to that final decision?

I myself judge haks as follows:

1) Will it enhance my existing areas or detract from them?

This is more a concern when updating older modules or using older areas for a new module. If half a PW uses Bioware Tilesets or even enhanced variants, then adding areas made with LoW's or sixthrice's tilesets will make the other areas pale too much. Transitioning from a Bioware(ish) Rural or Forest Exterior to one of theirs on the next map just breaks immersion for me as theirs shine so much brighter. This is also why I use the CEP. It meshes fairly nicely with the Bioware stuff. Were I to make a new module from scratch though, I'd likely use only the CEP appearances for creatures and placeables and use all custom tilesets from those mentioned above and others like Maxam and Senemenelas (something I ponder weekly actually).

2) Is the Hak complete or still in Beta?

When I first started building, there were many haks in developement that seemed promising. People get busy, drift away, find other things they like doing better and a good many hak projects never get completed. So completed haks are more attractive to me. I use Maxam's Versatile Dungeon and classic Dungeon tilesets and love them both even though his Versatile one is unfinished. Despite what is yet to be added or finished though, I played around with the existing features and decided that whether it ever was done or not, I'd be using it alot. I did pass on some of sixthrices stuff though because it left me wanting still. That's not the case now, but was when I started my current PW. (I'm constantly tempted to just rip out half my areas and use six's stuff anyhow now that they are complete or nearer to complete nowadays)

3) Will I use the hak for more than just an area or three and can I come close to my vision with what I have already?

Many times I've been tempted to add a hak based on what it would do to fill a small need. If it's a large hak, but I only forsee using it for an area or two, then those either have to be "make or break" areas where I just gotta have it to pull off the desired effect or I'll do without. I've passed on several haks just because I knew I'd never really use them to their full potential. As a builder, I'm frugal and want the biggest bang for my buck everytime. As a player, it's disheartening to download haks that are Gigabytes in size and find out that the PW uses it in only a few areas. Sometimes as I test a potential new hak, I suddenly envision how I might come close using something I already have in my module.

4) Aside from the visual appeal, are there any or many pathfinding isues?

Early on, I'd added in the JPX Mountains to my module. They created some really nice areas to look at. Pathfinding however was horrible. Eventually, I ended up removing them and replacing them with either areas made with CEP 2.3 options or the large City/Rural Combo hak I use.

5) Are the haks easy to download and install? Do they work for all platforms?

You'd think that might sound silly, but some haks require abit of work to use. If players have to leap through too many hoops to get them to work, many won't bother. CEP seems to confuse many players as does the CTP at times. Some haks extract to a folder and need yanked from there and dragged to your hak folder. Most of us here can handle that, but there's alot of players that panic when more than point and click is required. I admit that CEP has caused me issues in the past as some MAC users couldn't get all the newer content. Luckilly, I was able to download what they needed over MSN to the handful of players I had that were suffering. A few haks I've passed on because they needed renamed inorder to work for Linux users. Reposting someone elses work with just the haks renamed isn't something I'm ever likely to do.

6) Does the hak "play well with others"?

If I need to add my own custom hak to merge 2da files or TLKs then I might pass or at least put off adding the hak. I have one hak currently that I plan on adding, but since it needs some merges made, I'm holding off a few months as I'll be adding a custom TLK and a custom hak (Spells and JFK's "Makeshift Weapons" ... ya gotta love duel wielding frypans) to my module anyways. This way, I only have to listen to players whine once this spring. (They will and always do too ... even if you give them a months notice they'll wait until you've made the change and whine that you ruined their playtime )

Anyhow, that's how I decide on what if any haks to use. As for the real "push"? That's easy. It came when I first added my underdark haks and saw that I coul dmake a "real" underdark finally. After that, the rest was an easy sale.

Modifié par kalbaern, 17 février 2011 - 08:57 .

[henesua]

For a module with standard tilesets I highly recommend getting NWNCQ. It will improve the appearance of all of your existing areas. You can use the override or the hak.