83 réponses à ce sujet

[Kail Pendragon]

ehye_khandee wrote...

Kail Pendragon wrote...

ehye_khandee wrote...

Sorry to be a downer but it stands to reason, if your 'draw' (percentage of viewers who take your offer) is pitched to a smaller group, you will get less total takers. This assumes you have the same level of appeal with the module and pitch. The groups outlined in my other post indicated that the smaller group are those 'amenable to haks' vs the whole group of nwners which is the larger group. Pitched against these two groups the larger group should provide a greater response, all else being equal. It's just numbers.

Those ain't correct numbers, nor correct logical reasoning. There's the group of those who will play only hak-less PWs, those that will play only hak-ed PWs and those who play both. Since you do not have the numbers of the first and second group, you have no way to support your statement. I see that you haven't yet grasped what you have been told many moons ago. I'm not surprised.

Kail, go borrow a working brain and see if you can wrap it around this :

Those servers which have NO haks can be joined by any nwn player, therefore is a larger group, in fact the largest group as it represents 'all nwn players'. Those servers which use haks can only be joined by persons from the first group, who also have the hak (or are willing to obtain it). This will always, and by necessity be a smaller group, since it is a sub-set of the first group.

You are right, I don't bother grasping what is inherently wrong. You should try it sometime.

I see time is not making you any wiser not to say smarter. Mother nature has not been kind to you but you are your worst enemy. And you cannot grasp neither basic logic, nor mathematics, nor set theory. The server that have no haks can be joined by all the players wiling to join a server which has no hak . That is a subset of all NWN players (one which you have no figures for). Similarly the servers with haks can be joined by all players willing to join server with haks, another subset of all NWN players. Of all NWN players some will be willing to join only servers with haks, some only servers without haks and some both. The latter belong to both groups I mentioned above and as such do not contribute to determine whether there is more players which will play only server with haks or only servers without haks. Since we have no figures to say whether there's more players belonging to the group that playes only haked worlds vs those that play only non-haked worlds, it is impossible to say with certainty whether haked or non haked worlds have a wider audience. All we have is conjecture, which may be wright or wrong (and we have no way to know).

I really don't know how to make it simpler than this, unfortunately I am not as dumb as it takes to understand your limited intellect.

Congratulations for making yourself look like a fool once more, that is making yourself look like what you actually are.

[Jenna WSI]

This is just silly on both sides, isn't there something more productive you could be doing?

[ehye_khandee]

Kail Pendragon wrote...

[as usual, nothing worth reading.]

Kail,
I find it amazing that you fail to either read my post or comprehend the words.

I will try one more time, then resolve that you are just impish or unable to comprehend.

ALL of NWN players - can join a server with no haks. CAN is the operative word.

SOME of NWN players (who have haks required) can join servers with haks.

The sub-set is invariably smaller than the set.

Invariably is the operative word here.

Please do try to digest these simple immutable facts. Then maybe try not to be so annoyingly wrong.

[kalbaern]

To put Kail's views in a calmer light ...

Assuming that everyone with NWN will visit a PW not using haks is wrong. I know a good many that never will. What that percentage actually is I've no clue, but ... I suspect it's higher than many would guess. I suspect whether a person will or won't visit a PW based on whether they do or do not use haks will depend on many variables too.

- NWN seems to have a wider age spread than many other online games. Many of the "older" players I know are often afraid of haks. Just loading and updating to 1.69 is often enough to give them an anxiety attack. Many older folks do prefer a hakless PW.

- Many folk regardless of age (though rarely under 30) fear that a simple misclick installing a hak will end the world, launch a virus to wipe out their computers or somehow make some guy in Nigeria able to empty their checking accounts. These of course also prefer a hakless PW.

- Even installing the CEP can be daunting and confusing to many. Once done though, most enjoy the extra content, especially the character customization gained from it.

- Many and I include myself won't usually visit a PW that uses no haks. We're spoiled. We love all the new content that's been added other the years.

In the end, while ALL that play NWN can join a server that uses no haks, not ALL ever will.

I've helped several PWs update from vanilla to CEP or other haks over the years. The loud resistance common in '05 has been replaced more often by pleas to "add more" nowadays. This would show a trend toward many favoring a hak vs non-hak PW to visit.

Ehye is correct that no haks means a greater possible draw. But only possible based on numbers of game owners.

Kail is also correct. Many that own NWN won't consider a hakless PW as they assume (rightly or wrongly is moot) that no haks at all means an outdated and dieing PW.

[Jenna WSI]

I really don't think there's a difference. Look at Arelith and Amia. Hackless and Hacked, respectively. Both have about the same spread of playerbase. If you offer something people want, they're willing to go to a little trouble to get it. Now, as for bringing new players and getting people to want to experience a server without a solid playerbase hackless or hacked (People go where people are..) ... that's a different topic and I don't think hacks play much of a role. Because there are just as many empty servers that are equally hacked and hackless sitting out there. I really think it has nothing to do with custom content and more with your server's draw on players.

Modifié par Jenna WSI, 01 mars 2011 - 05:59 .

[Kail Pendragon]

ehye_khandee wrote...

Kail,
I find it amazing that you fail to either read my post or comprehend the words.

I will try one more time, then resolve that you are just impish or unable to comprehend.

ALL of NWN players - can join a server with no haks. CAN is the operative word.

Wrong. Can is not the operative word. The operative words are "are willing to".

SOME of NWN players (who have haks required) can join servers with haks.

All NWNW players can join a server with haks, they just need to download them.

The sub-set is invariably smaller than the set.

Indeed, the sub-set of "all NWN players willing to play hakless servers" is smaller than the set of "all NWN players"; similarly the  sub-set "all NWN players willing to play hak-ed servers" is smaller than the set "all NWN players".  You have no way to know which of these two subsets is bigger, hence your statement is simply unverifiable.

You, in your sheer ignorance and lack of intelligence, fail to take into account that there are players that will never play servers without haks. They could, if they wanted to, but they do not want and never will want. Hakfree sevrers do not have all NWN players as their pool of potential players. That is a fact.

Invariably is the operative word here.

Please do try to digest these simple immutable facts. Then maybe try not to be so annoyingly wrong.

Try to read, then understanmd. I know it's difficult for you or I wouldn't have to repeat the same basic concept time and time again. Hakfree servers have a pool of players which is a subset of all nwn players. Haked servers have a pool of players which is a subset of all nwn players. To the best of my knowledge there are currently no figures for these subsets, hence there is no way anyone can state with certainty whether haked or hakfree servers enjoy the widest pool of players. If you have verified figures, come on forth be my guest and show them. But you ain' t got nothing but your empty and unfounded claims, unfounded in both logic and facts. Goodbye.

Modifié par Kail Pendragon, 09 mars 2011 - 12:29 .

[Kail Pendragon]

kalbaern wrote...

To put Kail's views in a calmer light ...

Assuming that everyone with NWN will visit a PW not using haks is wrong. I know a good many that never will. What that percentage actually is I've no clue, but ... I suspect it's higher than many would guess. I suspect whether a person will or won't visit a PW based on whether they do or do not use haks will depend on many variables too.

- NWN seems to have a wider age spread than many other online games. Many of the "older" players I know are often afraid of haks. Just loading and updating to 1.69 is often enough to give them an anxiety attack. Many older folks do prefer a hakless PW.

- Many folk regardless of age (though rarely under 30) fear that a simple misclick installing a hak will end the world, launch a virus to wipe out their computers or somehow make some guy in Nigeria able to empty their checking accounts. These of course also prefer a hakless PW.

- Even installing the CEP can be daunting and confusing to many. Once done though, most enjoy the extra content, especially the character customization gained from it.

- Many and I include myself won't usually visit a PW that uses no haks. We're spoiled. We love all the new content that's been added other the years.

In the end, while ALL that play NWN can join a server that uses no haks, not ALL ever will.

I've helped several PWs update from vanilla to CEP or other haks over the years. The loud resistance common in '05 has been replaced more often by pleas to "add more" nowadays. This would show a trend toward many favoring a hak vs non-hak PW to visit.

Ehye is correct that no haks means a greater possible draw. But only possible based on numbers of game owners.

Kail is also correct. Many that own NWN won't consider a hakless PW as they assume (rightly or wrongly is moot) that no haks at all means an outdated and dieing PW.

Bravo.

HAKed PWs mean extra custom content and hence the possibility to get a very unique and special feel compared to hakfree servers. One might want to play only servers that have custom tilesets, or custom races, or custom classes, or classes updated to 3.5 rules, etc. and that is something that hakfree PWs are not in able to grant.

That said, one is free to make an educated guess that hakfree servers might enjoy a wider pool of players because of any factor they choose to take into account and analyze. I might even concur that hakfree servers probably have more players to draw from, but I won't state it as a fact, because I simply am not in the position to do that.

Modifié par Kail Pendragon, 09 mars 2011 - 12:38 .

[ehye_khandee]

kalbaern wrote...

To put Kail's views in a calmer light ...

Assuming that everyone with NWN will visit a PW not using haks is wrong.

First, read what I posted. I never said 'everyone will' I said 'all nwn owners CAN join a server without haks. This is a true statement.

For Kail's benefit, I'll remind all that no-one here has proven that a sub-set can be larger than the set. Buy yourself a jumbo box of logic and have a go at it. 

I stand by my statement.

[ehye_khandee]

Kail Pendragon wrote...

ehye_khandee wrote...

Kail,
I find it amazing that you fail to either read my post or comprehend the words.

I will try one more time, then resolve that you are just impish or unable to comprehend.

ALL of NWN players - can join a server with no haks. CAN is the operative word.

Wrong. Can is not the operative word. The operative words are "are willing to".

This is without merit. You are AGAIN putting words into my post which I did not type. I stated what I stated and you took it utterly wrong as you always have. Read what I said, and post your counterclaim actually addressing the point I made and we'll have a dialog. Up until now, you are simply wrong, utterly wrong and fully wrongheaded.

I repeat - my original statement here for those unable or unwilling to read the original :

It is 100% logical that since a server that does not use haks can be joined by ALL of the NWN audience and servers WITH a hak requirement can only be joined by a SOME of the NWN audience, that having hak requirments DOES limit who can join.
Making your hak requirements more managable by linking to them from your forums, wiki, web, blog, etc. makes it more likely that those who are lacking your haks may download them and thus be able to join the server.

All this said, there are still a portion of the NWN audience who are purists and will not even consider downloading a hak. Most of them play on the more crowded servers such as ARELITH where both numbers that lure new PLAYERS to click and explore are met with a successful connection attempt. Once you get the new PLAYER through the door and started, usually, they will stay (if your content is worth anything at least).

All that said, I'll tell you, add haks ONLY if you need them.


END.

Now, Kail, if you will get someone to read the page for you, you will see it is ONLY YOU who are positing 'willingness' I stated only 'can join' and I stand by that utter truth.

[avado]

ehye_khandee wrote...
Kail, go borrow a working brain and see if you can wrap it around this :

In all my days, I have NEVER read these sort of words directed to Kail.  Kail has been known to deal with concepts alot more complex than this in intelligent and efficient manner. 

[Kail Pendragon]

[quote]ehye_khandee wrote...

[quote]Kail Pendragon wrote...


[quote]ehye_khandee wrote...

Kail,
I find it amazing that you fail to either read my post or comprehend the words.[

I will try one more time, then resolve that you are just impish or unable to comprehend.

ALL of NWN players - can join a server with no haks. CAN is the operative word.[/quote]Wrong. Can is not the operative word. The operative words are "are willing to".

[/quote]
This is without merit. You are AGAIN putting words into my post which I did not type.[/quote]
I am not. I'm putting words in my post, not yours. It's me to say willing to and for a reason. It doesn't matter at all who can join the server, it matters who will join the server. Anybody that gets information about NWN can play it provided they take the necessary steps of getting a copy of the game, no mater whether we are talking about a hak-ed or hak-free PW or whatever. The issue is, will they play it or not?


[quote]I stated what I stated and you took it utterly wrong as you always have.[/quote]And rightly so since your statements are wrong once again (and as usual... no surprise there for me).

[quote]Read what I said, and post your counterclaim actually addressing the point I made and we'll have a dialog. [/quote]Do not delude yourself, I'm not interested in having a dialog with someone of your level of intelligence. You are not worth it.

[quote]Up until now, you are simply wrong, utterly wrong and fully wrongheaded. [/quote]Prove it then. Oh, I forgot, you can't, so you ar eleft with empty claims and unfounded "reasoning".


[quote]I repeat - my original statement here for those unable or unwilling to read the original :

It is 100% logical that since a server that does not use haks can be joined by ALL of the NWN audience and servers WITH a hak requirement can only be joined by a SOME of the NWN audience,[/quote]False. All PWs can be joined by all the NWN audience. Hak-ed PWs simply require the extra step of downloading the necessary haks.

[quote]that having hak requirments DOES limit who can join.[/quote]Having a hak limits those that will join not those who can join. Besides also not having a hak limits the pool of players for the server since there are those who will not join any PW which is hak free

[quote]
Making your hak requirements more managable by linking to them from your forums, wiki, web, blog, etc. makes it more likely that those who are lacking your haks may download them and thus be able to join the server.[/quote]Which says nothing about the pool of players of hak-free and hak-ed PWs.

[quote]All this said, there are still a portion of the NWN audience who are purists and will not even consider downloading a hak. [/quote]And similarly there is a portion of NWN players who will never consider to play a hak-free PW. Most of them are possibly spoiled by the quality and amount of custom content available and by the endless possibilities granted by this custom content that they look down on hak free PWs as not worth the effort of checking out.

In fact we could very well ask whether "does the absence of haks stop people from coming to a server?". It does stop some, as a matter of fact.

So both choices, adding a hak and not adding a hak stop people from joining a server.


[quote]
Now, Kail, if you will get someone to read the page for you, you will see it is ONLY YOU who are positing 'willingness' I stated only 'can join' and I stand by that utter truth.



[/quote]Any PW can be joined by any NWN player, no matter whether it' s a hak-free or hak-ed PW. So your utter truth is simply unfounded as usual.

Should you be reminded of this other utter truth:

[quote]Sorry to be a downer but it stands to reason, if your 'draw' (percentage
of viewers who take your offer) is pitched to a smaller group, you will
get less total takers. This assumes you have the same level of appeal
with the module and pitch. The groups outlined in my other post
indicated that the smaller group are those 'amenable to haks' vs the
whole group of nwners which is the larger group. Pitched against these
two groups the larger group should provide a greater response, all else
being equal. It's just numbers.[/quote]

Your "numbers" are wrong. I'll let you figure out why. I know you won't.

[SHOVA]

There is a limit to how many players can join a server, therefore not everyone can log in to a server if they use haks or not. personaly, I will not join a Hakless PW. I will not join a CEP only PW, as CEP, while a great HAK set, feels to me rather generic on what CC is available. Argueing about the semantics of who can, or will join is pointless, because your trying to quantify people. Currently there are only a handfull of servers running now, with players logged in. From a sampling of active player PWs, only 3 did not use haks. I did not look at every server running, with players. The probability that a new PW, or even an established Empty PW atracting players lately has been, and probably will remain, slim to none. I am sure that some may believe differently, but the truth is, NWN is a old game, and has been in decline for awhile now, and most, Thats most, not all, players ted to stay with the PW they know. To the OP, my advice is to add haks, overrides or whetever CC you like, think is neat, or inspires you to build.

Good luck!

[Lightfoot8]

Most of the long time players will have little problem downloading a hak to play on a server,After all by now they are use to it. However with the recent ability to directly download NWN from sites like GOG, there may be a new influx of players that have no idea what a hak even is. Some of thies players may not bother to download haks, untill after they play a PW without a hak. Once they have been bitten by a good PW the chances are better that they will download haks to play a server.

[Fellanor]

If you have a lot of players already, haks won't harm you. If you're a small server with 0 players on, having a lot of haks could stop some players from bothering to check you out.

[cmwise]

As a player who has experience in making and down loading Haks, erf's, mods, etc. I dont mind doing it now. But two years ago, no way..and by the way...different PW's use different methods for down loading Haks...that is really where the difference comes into play...If you want to have the player download three or four separate haks from third party sources, and then go onto the vault to download two or three more (of massive size) and then extract manually to where? Then, manually place in proper directories, clean up any override problems..well..some folks just wont go through it all.

There are some PW's with simple set up wizards that can walk the player through the down loads, that is helpful.

Point is this, if you have to be a computer nerd to get the Haks in place to play..people wont do it. They'll get lost in the process or not even try.

Modifié par cmwise, 19 mars 2011 - 01:09 .

[Eagles Talon]

Kalbaern wrote:

- NWN seems to have a wider age spread than many other online games. Many of the "older" players I know are often afraid of haks. Just loading and updating to 1.69 is often enough to give them an anxiety attack. Many older folks do prefer a hakless PW.

- Many folk regardless of age (though rarely under 30) fear that a simple misclick installing a hak will end the world, launch a virus to wipe out their computers or somehow make some guy in Nigeria able to empty their checking accounts. These of course also prefer a hakless PW.

Thank you sir for making me realize that I am an exception to the rule.

[TSMDude]

Just letting everyone know we have decided to use haks now and will let you all know how it does for our numbers.

We of course will be ready to roll back if it seriously effects other folks but I am thinking it will actually enhance rather than push people away.

Anyone have any new thoughts on this?

[Arinoch]

I think NWN was released almost 10 years ago, and the aversion to downloading even the 1 gig CEP has got to be a lot more limited now. Just thinking of my own internet connection, only probably 3 years ago my absolute max download speed was 100k/sec from a really good site? Now it's 600-700k/sec. So whereas previously it took 2.5 hours to download 1 gig, now it can take maybe 25 minutes on a good site.

When I started playing on PWs I went for one that had zero haks for simplicity's sake because I was just testing the waters of NWN PWs. I can't imagine many brand new NWN players diving head first from the 10 meter diving board downloading 2 gigs worth of haks (server haks + CEP) just to try something they may not like. That said, how many new NWN players are there at this point? Now you have people with experience looking for a server that will suit their specific wants as a player. I play on one that has CEP and its own install and launcher. It isn't someone seeing if they want to swim in the world of PWs anymore; it's someone who's tested several different pools and has decided they like their water 23.6 meters deep with dyed, slightly purple water and 0.07% chlorine. The brand new NWN player at this point is going to be rare.

[seventhslayer]

it really is a slog...when you switch over and try to find a server that you might be comfortable in, it really is a bit obnoxious, ESPECIALLY for new players trying to get into the game. It's annoying enough having to make new character's for each server you try, let alone downloading all the hakpaks and etc that come with it.

I mean atm I wouldn't be bothering with Planar Legends' 1 gig of hakpaks if 1. it wasn't new and 2. there are a considerable amount of people on there and I'm tired of logging into PW's with 0 players in them.

[Fellanor]

CEP stops me coming to a server, because it's such a hunk of junk.

[Metaldwarf]

Fellanor wrote...

CEP stops me coming to a server, because it's such a hunk of junk.

LOL...can you clarify what you mean by calling one of the most important things to come out of the hard work of dozens of dedicated NWN crafters a 'hunk of junk'? I had nothing to do with it but to this day my primary gaming experience is NWN due to the work and the love the community has for continuing to improve it.

[Mad.Hatter]

The only problem with CEP is that it started to add things (looking at scripts, CRAP, so on) that most of the community doesn't and wouldn't use. Hence the complaints of bloat. (I still use it, though)

[PurpleDragonKnight]

Haks do prevent me from trying a server, especially the CEP. I have a low graphics card, and most haks were poorly done. Sure, they look pretty, but they lacked the design efficiency, practicality and server load parameters of Bioware's work. So many examples of it - CEP fog, which lags everything up... Custom trees, which create invisible barriers so that you can't walk around them. There are very few haks which were expertly done.

[Fellanor]

Metaldwarf:

The CEP clogs up the palette with mostly junk. It triples module loading times. Most of its placables are poorly constructed. Remember, that it is a jumble of different works. Personally, I find that 95% of it is worthless. Am I going to add it to my module for that 5% which is decent? Nope. The bigger it grows, the more useless it becomes. It actually makes it harder for a builder to find the good stuff, because it clogs the palettes up with an unnecessarily massive amount of repetitive content.

[Fellanor]

PurpleDragonKnight:

That is a fair comment. A lot of players like to whine about Bioware (while playing their game), but Bioware, to be fair, did put a high level of planning into their content. That is why there is not a huge quantity of it available; Because they actually thought about all the aspects: As you say, design efficiency, module strain, etc.

CEP objects, on the other hand, appear to have been construced much faster and with a large number of imperfections. Add all of them together and you get... a hunk of junk.