75 réponses à ce sujet

[282xvl]

Cylon Basestars, evolved.



Should NOT have just let it fly off...

[Dionkey]

Vaenier wrote...

They are a bad plot device that dont make sense for anything. If I had their resources, I would have turned the galaxy into one giant cloning and research facility and pump out multiple reapers a second. The universe would bow down to their numbers. Right now, the Reapers sit on their ass and do nothing.
Best I can do for the Mass Effect story is say they are simply an experiment with a toaster gone horribly wrong. They have no goals or objectives, they simply kill because their programming tells them to. They know nothing else. They barely qualify as sentient.

I have to agree in way. The reapers are the kind of plot device that kind of screws the pooch, anyway you look at it the outcome or origin is most likely going to be generic or already guessed, I doubt they could pull something off like Inception without people calling mindf***

[TheMiroHa]

I think that second theory is closest to truth. At least I've always imagined that first Reaper(s) was/were created by the first galactic civilization as the final step of their evolution as a species and since then they harvested other races to "ascend" them to what they believe is the peak of evolution.

[Dean_the_Young]

Dionkey wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

They are a bad plot device that dont make sense for anything. If I had their resources, I would have turned the galaxy into one giant cloning and research facility and pump out multiple reapers a second. The universe would bow down to their numbers. Right now, the Reapers sit on their ass and do nothing.
Best I can do for the Mass Effect story is say they are simply an experiment with a toaster gone horribly wrong. They have no goals or objectives, they simply kill because their programming tells them to. They know nothing else. They barely qualify as sentient.

I have to agree in way. The reapers are the kind of plot device that kind of screws the pooch, anyway you look at it the outcome or origin is most likely going to be generic or already guessed, I doubt they could pull something off like Inception without people calling mindf***

Except Vaenier's presumption that conquest/subjugation/reproduction is their goal is baseless.

If conquest and subjugation were the Reapers goals, they wouldn't leave the galaxy in the first place. There'd be no point to it. They also wouldn't, you know, kill the races they Reap. Whatever else their goals are (and there remain possible avenues of thought), these are not they.

If reproduction was their goal, they could simply mass produce Reapers. Not that they've needed 'more' for the last hundred million cycles, mind you, and not that they're shown lacking in the numbers department, but we know good and well that they pass up species they 'could' do it because they don't want to. Asari, Turians, Krogan, Drell: these are all races that aren't blocked, but are simply not desired. Turian advancement is a social problem that could be changed. Drell could be put into a breeding program for numbers. The Krogan Genophage is a matter of years to cure. Numbers isn't their goal, nor have they ever needed it. Multiple Reapers per second is, well, stupid. It serves no need of theirs. Reproduction without a point is still pointless.

Heck, even genocide isn't the end-goal of the Reaper cycle. If it was, they wouldn't go to the effort to seek out/analyze new species to Reaperfy, merely stick to their own desired race(s), and they wouldn't go through the effort of actually preserving the un-Reaperfiable Protheans in the form of Collectors. Genocide is an effect of their cycle, but they've gone though immense efforts to preserve species they desired to, even when they had no need to. Genocide of the rest isn't the point.

[hawat333]

Mr Writer sits in his chair thinking "Hm, I need an enemy that inspires fear, seems to be impossible to beat, have mistery around them. Mmm, let it be a race of organic machines, that sounds good enough."



After a few months, there are dozens of theories on their origins, agenda and purpose.

[vargatom]

The Reapers are a system designed to preserve (worthy) galactic civilizations from permanent extinction resulting from the inevitable overuse of Mass Effect dark energy destroying the galaxy.

There are a few issues with this...
Sovereign never mentioned this as a goal, only that organic civilizations are "extinguished". They only do this for destruction, even though it is possible that they do keep some data from the records of the Citadel whenever they start an invasion.
Besides, they don't preserve much even from the species they could have used to create more Reapers (we're still not clear on how often they're doing this). No memories, culture, ideas, just genetic material is used. And what use are stories and songs if noone ever gets to experience them again?
Not to mention that the actual individuals aren't really happy with the outcome either, having been killed in the process.

It's far more likely that the process has a purely practical purpose, creating variety within the Reapers to better prepare for evolutionary challanges or something like that. It's not preservation, just getting some source material.


Dark energy and the mass effect are probably involved in the entire extinction cycle, though. But the best way to ensure that the explanation is completely new and unexpected is to keep at least some important pieces of the puzzle hidden until the end. There's probably some big discovery left for Shepard to make in ME3 that could both explain the Reapers' origins and motivations, and it would also be the key to the survival of organic life in this galaxy.

[UKJackMan]

88mphSlayer wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

None of the above:

The Reapers are a system designed to preserve (worthy) galactic civilizations from permanent extinction resulting from the inevitable overuse of Mass Effect dark energy destroying the galaxy. The first Reapers were at least partially deliberate/willingness on the part of the origin species, with the gestalt biological-processed nature of the Reapers being used to preserve the 'essence' of a species and its population in a form that would not endanger the galaxy.

The galactic cycle, more than a cycle of extinction, is a cycle to allow more life to remain and grow in the galaxy. Civilizations that would inevitably discover, develop, overuse, and die from the overuse of Mass Effect and biotics are instead culled by the Reapers, allowing other species to grow. 'Worthy' civilizations/species that meet Reaperfication requirements are Reaperfied to preserve them as well.

The goal of the Reapers isn't conquest, territory, or dominance, or even killing. It's preserving a balance of galactic survival. Military necessity is an afterthought, not the purpose.

i don't know about overuse or abuse of biotics and mass effect technology, as the humans have only just started dabbling in that while the asari have been doing it for awhile

i just think it's one big reaper reproduction program, like reaper farming where they throw out all the scraps every winter and start over the next spring

sucks for all the carrots and potatoes that don't cut it, but that's how they view us - like carrots and potatoes, they don't view any species as something great because it built big towers or big space ships, they only see our genetic history and whether we're worthy of ascension

ascension of course in mystical terms means ascending to heaven without dying, reapers don't view humans as the final line in evolution just a step so they don't care if we die physically, only that our worthiness is preserved

they have to destroy all life regardless tho because like farming - you start over from scratch, you don't plant new potatoes next to old dead ones and weeds

Like the carrots and potatoes analogy....

If Shepard manages to defeat the Reapers I cant help thinking they will still not acknowledge Humans instead retreat to were ever they come from with an inferiority complex knowing they have been undone by a potato...

[tommythetomcat]

The funnest part about their origins is not knowing them and discussing it, it's going to be a real shame when thats no longer possible. I can only hope Bioware makes it coherent, there is nothing worse then a major plot point being poorly thought out.

[Dean_the_Young]

vargatom wrote...

The Reapers are a system designed to preserve (worthy) galactic civilizations from permanent extinction resulting from the inevitable overuse of Mass Effect dark energy destroying the galaxy.

There are a few issues with this...
Sovereign never mentioned this as a goal, only that organic civilizations are "extinguished". They only do this for destruction, even though it is possible that they do keep some data from the records of the Citadel whenever they start an invasion.

And how does this contradict? Civilizations re extinguished regarldess. Worthy ones are kept in the form of Reapers (or, in the case of the un-Reaperfiable Protheans, the Collectors). We know that extinction and ascension are two sides of the same genocide.

Besides, they don't preserve much even from the species they could have used to create more Reapers (we're still not clear on how often they're doing this). No memories, culture, ideas, just genetic material is used. And what use are stories and songs if noone ever gets to experience them again?

Reapers are gestalt AI, implied to be nations derived of the component race, with total memory storage. The ascended races can easily exist in a technological singularity, with all the memories of the culture and 'cyphers' of their races within themselves.

(Whether they do or not will depend on ME3's exposition of the true nature/intent of the Reapers.)

Not to mention that the actual individuals aren't really happy with the outcome either, having been killed in the process.

The Reaper gestalt intelligences would beg to differ. Theirs is the only opinion that matters.

It's far more likely that the process has a purely practical purpose, creating variety within the Reapers to better prepare for evolutionary challanges or something like that. It's not preservation, just getting some source material.

Reapers don't face such evolutionary intelligences, nor do they seek variety for variety's own sake (or else they wouldn't skip the other ascendable races on matters of principal).

[vargatom]

Do you realize the difference between the current state of, say, ancient Greece and its state at its peak? Just because we have most of their cultural achievments in libraries and museums, it's still not preserved, it's dead. They've been conquered and destroyed and failed to live on and create new things and prosper. 
The Collectors have also been mutilated and broken, not even a shadow of their former selves but just an infinitely sad afterword.

Reapers just destroy everything and don't give a damn about their culture and soul and anything.
End of story, really, every other bit is ungrounded speculation.

[Loup Blanc]

I like #4.

[vargatom]

By the way... if you sit down and consider Harbinger's observations about the various species, they don't really make any sense - that is, if their only plan is to build a new Reaper.

I mean, why would a weakened immune system matter, are they afraid that a Quarian Reaper would get space flu?
Would it inherit the short life span of a salarian, compromising its immortality? Is it going to be too "primitive"  if they make it from turians? Or the krogans' sterilization - do they want their new baby to... mate with someone?
Then there's humanity's technological potential, should the Human Reaper build a lab and research new stuff for them? What about the emotional drive, do they want to subjugate it so that the new recruit doesn't start writing poems?

All this makes it look like the human Reaper is not their goal, but merely a means to an end. Maybe if it's made from humans, it's more effective at conquering or controlling the species, perhaps through better indoctrination. But it clearly sounds like the Reapers want to do something with the entire human population, altering them somehow (hence the interest in genetic traits and other atttributes) - to become tools for a higher purpose. 
And so we get to the growing void mentioned in the dialogue that's been cut from the game's ending...

[Vaenier]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

They are a bad plot device that dont make sense for anything. If I had their resources, I would have turned the galaxy into one giant cloning and research facility and pump out multiple reapers a second. The universe would bow down to their numbers. Right now, the Reapers sit on their ass and do nothing.
Best I can do for the Mass Effect story is say they are simply an experiment with a toaster gone horribly wrong. They have no goals or objectives, they simply kill because their programming tells them to. They know nothing else. They barely qualify as sentient.

I have to agree in way. The reapers are the kind of plot device that kind of screws the pooch, anyway you look at it the outcome or origin is most likely going to be generic or already guessed, I doubt they could pull something off like Inception without people calling mindf***

Except Vaenier's presumption that conquest/subjugation/reproduction is their goal is baseless.

If conquest and subjugation were the Reapers goals, they wouldn't leave the galaxy in the first place. There'd be no point to it. They also wouldn't, you know, kill the races they Reap. Whatever else their goals are (and there remain possible avenues of thought), these are not they.

If reproduction was their goal, they could simply mass produce Reapers. Not that they've needed 'more' for the last hundred million cycles, mind you, and not that they're shown lacking in the numbers department, but we know good and well that they pass up species they 'could' do it because they don't want to. Asari, Turians, Krogan, Drell: these are all races that aren't blocked, but are simply not desired. Turian advancement is a social problem that could be changed. Drell could be put into a breeding program for numbers. The Krogan Genophage is a matter of years to cure. Numbers isn't their goal, nor have they ever needed it. Multiple Reapers per second is, well, stupid. It serves no need of theirs. Reproduction without a point is still pointless.

Heck, even genocide isn't the end-goal of the Reaper cycle. If it was, they wouldn't go to the effort to seek out/analyze new species to Reaperfy, merely stick to their own desired race(s), and they wouldn't go through the effort of actually preserving the un-Reaperfiable Protheans in the form of Collectors. Genocide is an effect of their cycle, but they've gone though immense efforts to preserve species they desired to, even when they had no need to. Genocide of the rest isn't the point.

I agree with you. I even said "They have no goals or objectives, they simply kill because their
programming tells them to. They know nothing else. They barely qualify
as sentient." because they obviously dont want that other stuff because they would be epic failures if they were trying for that. Its not reproduction, its not conquest, its not advancement, its not evolution. There is nothing they could be trying to achieve that cant be done faster, safer, and larger. They kill because they are programmed to kill, nothing more.

It could be they kill to give new races a chance. But killing is still their objective. They are not gaining anything out of this, probably not even enjoyment. They are slaves to their programming.

[przemichal]

iOnlySignIn wrote...
5. (Satan) Reapers have no beginning, i.e. they are always part of the universe. Their origins and motivations are truly beyond our comprehension.
(+) This is exactly what Sovereign means in ME1, and does not conflict any aspect of the story.
(--) This is mystical, and the Mass Effect universe is known for its lack of mystical elements.

Well -- IS ME universe REALLY known for its lack of (let's call them so) mystical elements? One may remember that those prothean visions needed you to obtain some kind cipher so you could fully understand them. Also they were transfered directly into your mind. Maybe some kind of "mystic connection" will also come into play this time? (Like Shep's implants or things like that I mean.) I would say 5, with some of 4, and then whatever 1, 2 or 3, it's not so important to me after I had my 5 and 4

Modifié par przemichal, 26 décembre 2010 - 06:00 .

[atheelogos]

"natural evolution of a sapient organic race" this. They evolved just like any race and enhanced themselves with tech.

[ZLurps]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

None of the above:

The Reapers are a system designed to preserve (worthy) galactic civilizations from permanent extinction resulting from the inevitable overuse of Mass Effect dark energy destroying the galaxy. The first Reapers were at least partially deliberate/willingness on the part of the origin species, with the gestalt biological-processed nature of the Reapers being used to preserve the 'essence' of a species and its population in a form that would not endanger the galaxy.

The galactic cycle, more than a cycle of extinction, is a cycle to allow more life to remain and grow in the galaxy. Civilizations that would inevitably discover, develop, overuse, and die from the overuse of Mass Effect and biotics are instead culled by the Reapers, allowing other species to grow. 'Worthy' civilizations/species that meet Reaperfication requirements are Reaperfied to preserve them as well.

The goal of the Reapers isn't conquest, territory, or dominance, or even killing. It's preserving a balance of galactic survival. Military necessity is an afterthought, not the purpose.

I have been something like this. Could Reapers originally been just dominant species in galaxy who where facing some sort of catastrophic event that threatened to end their species... And as solution they developed species / machine interface and technology we know as Reapers as some sort of space ark that was intended to preserve their species. Maybe something went awry somewhere along the process. Maybe fusion between species and AI ended in conflict which one would be dominant resulting insanity.
Or maybe Reapers were programmed to find suitable host for species that created them and repeat experiment after every  50.000 is to find suitable host... and harvest most suitable form of life to serve their masters when they "come back" and not let any species evolve to stage where they could be threat to Reapers goals.

[Archereon]

I prefer a meta version of 5: Never reveal the Reapers origins. Doing so would really be the final nail in the coffin of their guise of Cosmic Horrors, and would really complete their villain decay. The horror genre, particularly cosmic horror, is built around the fear of the unknown. Take that away, and the Reapers are nothing more than cartoonishly evil space monsters, if Harbinger doesn't get a serious speech pattern and voice retool between ME2 and ME3.

[BiancoAngelo7]

I say option 6: they are a windows virus from the future that learned to time travel and take over all civilization. Fu**ing bill gates.

[Knickerus]

BiancoAngelo7 wrote...

I say option 6: they are a windows virus from the future that learned to time travel and take over all civilization.

This.

[BiancoAngelo7]

[R3MUS]

I really wanna know the beginning of the Reapers. Maybe a race who was mortal and wanted to become immortal and not die by age, so they put their souls through som rituals into these machines. Or the race created these machines and the machines turned against them.

[TheJiveDJ]

A more likely scenario is that they have some motive to harvest life that we are unaware of. They are our "salvation" through destruction. Perhaps they're motives are justifiable. Harvesting life may prevent some cataclysmic event ala Haestrom's dying star. Who knows? I believe the reapers believe that what they are doing is necessary to sustain the universe somehow.

Modifié par TheJiveDJ, 28 décembre 2010 - 11:08 .

[RiouHotaru]

#5 would make them very Lovecraftian, implying they've been around far longer than all other life in the galaxy, and it would certainly fit the 'Eldritch Abomination/Starfish Alien' motif that's constantly used regarding them (See Reaper Ship logs, "even a dead god can dream")

[Zulu_DFA]

Kinda mix of #1 and #2:

There was an ancient hyperadvanced civilization. But it was divided into two parties: the first wanted to remain organic, and the second wanted to become cybernetic. The first party built the Citadel (an ark ship), the second party built the Omega (a Reaper factory), and turned themsleves into Reapers. Then the second party (now, the Reapers) wiped out the first party. Or the first party somehow turned into the "beings of light". For some reason the Reapers can't destroy the Citadel (perhaps that reason is that they need it to keep the "beings of light" passive or something).

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 29 décembre 2010 - 08:42 .

[Lisa_H]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

None of the above:

The Reapers are a system designed to preserve (worthy) galactic civilizations from permanent extinction resulting from the inevitable overuse of Mass Effect dark energy destroying the galaxy. The first Reapers were at least partially deliberate/willingness on the part of the origin species, with the gestalt biological-processed nature of the Reapers being used to preserve the 'essence' of a species and its population in a form that would not endanger the galaxy.

The galactic cycle, more than a cycle of extinction, is a cycle to allow more life to remain and grow in the galaxy. Civilizations that would inevitably discover, develop, overuse, and die from the overuse of Mass Effect and biotics are instead culled by the Reapers, allowing other species to grow. 'Worthy' civilizations/species that meet Reaperfication requirements are Reaperfied to preserve them as well.

The goal of the Reapers isn't conquest, territory, or dominance, or even killing. It's preserving a balance of galactic survival. Military necessity is an afterthought, not the purpose.

This is my theory as well. Shepard will destroy the reapers but prize will be that no new species will ever get the chance. Slowly the known species will conquer the entire galaxy unless they destroy each other in some war. If not for the reapers humanity would probably not exist since a nice planet like earth would probably have been discovered and used milllions of years ago. So this theory will also add a bit of grey in the story.