37 réponses à ce sujet

[lazuli]

Now you're talking about giving enemies enhanced Biotics, which is, in my opinion, a terrible idea and a topic for another thread. I would like enemies to have more diverse abilities at their command. Tela uses Shockwave effectively, for instance, and I enjoy that aspect of the fight with her. I do not, however, want enemies that can use Pull, Throw, and other Biotic gravity attacks. Think of all of the glitches that would occur. It was bad enough in ME1 with the simple ragdoll effect.

[Googlesaurus]

Spartas Husky wrote...

Is thane unique because he has throw and warp?

I rather recycle other ones and just give him powers.

Then every squadmate will start to resemble every other squadmate, which defeats the purpose of making them unique. ME2 squadmates had 3 available powers (plus the loyalty power) because the pool was relatively small. Raising the possible number of power combinations in ME3 necessarily means you must act new powers to the pool. Either make some loyalty powers into standard powers, recycle ME1 powers into ME3, or invent new ones. 

Spartas Husky wrote...

Now how exactly would it break the game. At the same time every enemy would have access to the same vast amount of powers.

How many enemies have you met that dont have just overly pumped hp bars and instead have as many powers as you do?

How many enemies try to warp you? or send a biotic throw at you?

Googlesaurus wrote...

Your description of Thane is a dude who can strip any defense (with split cooldowns he'll be able to stack combos on command) plus TC plus sniper rifles plus an additional defense boost plus two forms of CC. Considering that he must obey Shep's orders in battle, such a combination of powers will break the game.

Addendum: Proto-Thane isn't even a biotic Infiltrator, but a Sentinel with long-range weaponry. The Sentinel's only weakness is a lack of ranged weapons, and you've just removed that. The definition of broken.  

It wouldn't matter if enemies had the same number of powers since they wouldn't have the complexity to use them in intelligent ways. AI and scripting doesn't allow for that.  

Spartas Husky wrote...

I am not saying making squadmates godlike, but every single individual in the game to be as good as sheperd, not just a little tiny branch of it with 2 powers.

Now frmo what you 've said you rather have a suqadmate with 2 powers than have him have more like shep? make new powers I dont mind but dont have a squadmate or an enemy have only 2 powers at the most... although some have 3 I think.

I'd rather have a squadmate with 8 available powers and the points to max out 5 of them, with branching power trees and personal characteristics that clearly define them. 

lazuli wrote...



Now you're talking about giving enemies enhanced Biotics, which is, in my
opinion, a terrible idea and a topic for another thread. I would like enemies
to have more diverse abilities at their command. Tela uses Shockwave
effectively, for instance, and I enjoy that aspect of the fight with her. I do
not, however, want enemies that can use Pull, Throw, and other Biotic gravity
attacks. Think of all of the glitches that would occur. It was bad enough in
ME1 with the simple ragdoll effect.

*Shepard stuck on platform*

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH-AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH-ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!

Modifié par Googlesaurus, 26 décembre 2010 - 04:25 .

[Spartas Husky]

Googlesaurus wrote...

I'd rather have a squadmate with 8 available powers and the points to max out 5 of them, with branching power trees and personal characteristics that clearly define them. 

there u go... wow u summarized everything I was thinking in that sentence... there

THat is exactly What I been suggesting. Larger pool with finite points to choose certain powers.

What do we have thane now? 2 powers? does that make him unique?

What does Garrus have 2 powers? does that make him unique?

There u go, large pool of accessible powers and having points enought o max out 5... not including the passive power there perfect explanation. You just summed up my grieves in....a sentence :wizard:


Now on the AI..... m3h I found the AI of ME1 not so bad. Some of them used overload, and the damn weapon overheated... I dont see that in ME2... forgot if I ever saw damping.

but you dont need that much, and certain it has been done, ME1 did it.... to an extent.

have men in the background scripted they will have cloaking. THey wont shoot at you unless their cloaking power recharged, so for 15 secs every minute you will see snipers firing at you and you will just see muzzle flashes. That AI is not hard to make.

Simple soldiers at the beginning, if your getting too close, have em launch concussion shots at you... not really hard, all it needs is a distance trigger.

If they can seem to get your hp down coz you stay behind the cover too much use lift on u... stasis or w/e

I agree with that innitital sentence I quoted from you, but giving the excuse that they just can't make a "good" enough AI to handle a couple of scripted tactics is, no offense of course, blatant lies we have seen in many games reasonable AI's using powers effectively... although not... what we would call awesome or perfect, but reasonable.

Still in the end you summarized my ideas, larege pool, but in the end have as many powers, although not the same as a shep. Do you have limited points yes, so it makes them unique... after I pass the game though I would certainly cheat and just max em all for the fun of it but still idea remains.

Is better to have more options and limited availability than nearly no options at all.

Modifié par Spartas Husky, 26 décembre 2010 - 05:00 .

[Googlesaurus]

Spartas Husky wrote...

there u go... wow u summarized everything I was thinking in that sentence... there

THat is exactly What I been suggesting. Larger pool with finite points to choose certain powers.

What do we have thane now? 2 powers? does that make him unique?

What does Garrus have 2 powers? does that make him unique?

There u go, large pool of accessible powers and having points enought o max out 5... not including the passive power there perfect explanation. You just summed up my grieves in....a sentence :wizard:

Glad to see we agree.

Spartas Husky wrote...

Now on the AI..... m3h I found the AI of ME1 not so bad. Some of them used overload, and the damn weapon overheated... I dont see that in ME2... forgot if I ever saw damping.

but you dont need that much, and certain it has been done, ME1 did it.... to an extent.

have men in the background scripted they will have cloaking. THey wont shoot at you unless their cloaking power recharged, so for 15 secs every minute you will see snipers firing at you and you will just see muzzle flashes. That AI is not hard to make.

Simple soldiers at the beginning, if your getting too close, have em launch concussion shots at you... not really hard, all it needs is a distance trigger.

If they can seem to get your hp down coz you stay behind the cover too much use lift on u... stasis or w/e

I agree with that innitital sentence I quoted from you, but giving the excuse that they just can't make a "good" enough AI to handle a couple of scripted tactics is, no offense of course, blatant lies we have seen in many games reasonable AI's using powers effectively... although not... what we would call awesome or perfect, but reasonable.

Still in the end you summarized my ideas, larege pool, but in the end have as many powers, although not the same as a shep. Do you have limited points yes, so it makes them unique... after I pass the game though I would certainly cheat and just max em all for the fun of it but still idea remains.

Is better to have more options and limited availability than nearly no options at all.

The scripting only allowed them to use certain powers instead of the entire set of an Engineer or an Adept. Having enemies use all their powers at appropriate times would require more than scripting. Also if powers are regulated for specific circumstances such as distance, players will figure it out and learn how to abuse the system. As lazuli has mentioned, transferring the effects of biotic powers to the player could have really bad consequences. Imagine getting stuck on top of boxes multiple times in a single mission. 

Modifié par Googlesaurus, 26 décembre 2010 - 06:03 .

[Spartas Husky]

Googlesaurus wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

Now
on the AI..... m3h I found the AI of ME1 not so bad. Some of them used
overload, and the damn weapon overheated... I dont see that in ME2...
forgot if I ever saw damping.

but you dont need that much, and certain it has been done, ME1 did it.... to an extent.

have
men in the background scripted they will have cloaking. THey wont shoot
at you unless their cloaking power recharged, so for 15 secs every
minute you will see snipers firing at you and you will just see muzzle
flashes. That AI is not hard to make.

Simple soldiers at the
beginning, if your getting too close, have em launch concussion shots at
you... not really hard, all it needs is a distance trigger.

If they can seem to get your hp down coz you stay behind the cover too much use lift on u... stasis or w/e

I
agree with that innitital sentence I quoted from you, but giving the
excuse that they just can't make a "good" enough AI to handle a couple
of scripted tactics is, no offense of course, blatant lies we have seen
in many games reasonable AI's using powers effectively... although
not... what we would call awesome or perfect, but reasonable.

Still
in the end you summarized my ideas, larege pool, but in the end have as
many powers, although not the same as a shep. Do you have limited
points yes, so it makes them unique... after I pass the game though I
would certainly cheat and just max em all for the fun of it but still
idea remains.

Is better to have more options and limited availability than nearly no options at all.

The
scripting only allowed them to use certain powers instead of the entire
set of an Engineer or an Adept. Having enemies use all their powers at
appropriate times would require more than scripting. Also if powers are
regulated for specific circumstances such as distance, players will
figure it out and learn how to abuse the system. As lazuli has
mentioned, transferring the effects of biotic powers to the player could
have really bad consequences. Imagine getting stuck on top of boxes
multiple times in a single mission. 

well we know how
to abuse harbringer now , I dont see it is fair to say "that idea can
be exploited so lets not implement it", you know as well as I every idea
gamers will abuse it... I find that close to "lets not make it an rpg
because gamers will try to find a glitch to max all skills even though
that is not what we've intended.

AI's always have triggers, is not a bad nor hard. And there are simple things to lower abuse... no plan will ever be perfect but come on saying it "might" be exploited is no excuse to actually carry it out.

Chances of them using powers just as we would do. if shield is above 25% enemies use overloads.

If Armor is above 25% enemies use incinirate.

Powers that require health to be unprotected are not used unless there is no protection.

triggers like that while simple are near fool proof. Of course will there be unforseen events that we can exploit, of course, but that is no excuse to not increase the game's difficulty in a good way... rather than just beef up enemies hp.

Now on the biotic stuff you mentioned on the last sentence as Lazuli mentioned. No I am not saying to make NPC powers have the EXACT same effect, like floating through the air and the like.

ME1 is a clear example of it. When we used lift on enemies they lifted of the ground, but when those same powers were used against us we just dropped, unable to move. Not floating through the air not flying or anything, the effect was no different than being pushed knocked or w/e... but at least the attempt was made.

So yes I understand if suddenly you started to float in mid air and a concussion shot lands you get blasted half way across the map and lang god knows where. But just make you drop to at least incapacitate you is not that farfetched, as I said it was done in ME1.

Things like concussion shots landing on u, well dont have shep or squadies be launched like ragdolls but rather just take the double dmg and thats it.

Not very complicated to solve those issues, if gravity is the problem then dont try to even solve it take it out of the equation dont have anyone float, except for enemies of course being influenced by your powers, other than that simply drop or stay put with a weird aura of biotic power around you... much like ME1.

Something like "throw" it will cause glitches?...why we get knocked out sometimes... why not have the same script for it... nothing bad there.

Stasis... we saw it on ME1.

Singularity.... if u have a squadmate with singularity in your squad the effect is negated... if not then have you stand still... while boxes float about.... and they might hurt u. realistic, probably not but is better than just not implementing it.

So I guess my point is not necessarily to make enemies powers have the same "look" as urs... that as you said would create a whole bunch of unforseen problems, but nevertheless the effect to be there.

Try to imagine Garrus hold the fort part... and dont tell me it would have been sweet having enemies actually be something else than mindless drones ready to be shot. I mean even if is all heavily scripted and no AI involved it would have been better than just mindlessly be mowed down by my sniper.

PS:....all this started from one issue I encountered really.... two actually. A why doesn't miranda have tech armor....doesn't make her unique? why enemies have it....

B. how come when I bring down an enemies tech armor it doesn't send out a blast

[Googlesaurus]

Spartas Husky wrote...

well we know how
to abuse harbringer now , I dont see it is fair to say "that idea can
be exploited so lets not implement it", you know as well as I every idea
gamers will abuse it... I find that close to "lets not make it an rpg
because gamers will try to find a glitch to max all skills even though
that is not what we've intended.

It depends on how bad you can "exploit" scripting and AI. There's recognizing patterns and adjusting your gameplay/pushing your strengths to defeat enemies, and then there's cheap spamming of tactics. Twiddling back and forth behind cover because you know Harby always brings the pseudo-Singularity on the third attack is an example of the latter. It takes a helluva lot more patience than thought or skill. 

Spartas Husky wrote...

AI's always have triggers, is not a bad nor hard. And there are simple things to lower abuse... no plan will ever be perfect but come on saying it "might" be exploited is no excuse to actually carry it out.

Chances of them using powers just as we would do. if shield is above 25% enemies use overloads.

If Armor is above 25% enemies use incinirate.

Powers that require health to be unprotected are not used unless there is no protection.

triggers like that while simple are near fool proof. Of course will there be unforseen events that we can exploit, of course, but that is no excuse to not increase the game's difficulty in a good way... rather than just beef up enemies hp.

But should the triggers be so specific? I like being surprised every once in a while. 

Spartas Husky wrote...

Now on the biotic stuff you mentioned on the last sentence as Lazuli mentioned. No I am not saying to make NPC powers have the EXACT same effect, like floating through the air and the like.

ME1 is a clear example of it. When we used lift on enemies they lifted of the ground, but when those same powers were used against us we just dropped, unable to move. Not floating through the air not flying or anything, the effect was no different than being pushed knocked or w/e... but at least the attempt was made.

So yes I understand if suddenly you started to float in mid air and a concussion shot lands you get blasted half way across the map and lang god knows where. But just make you drop to at least incapacitate you is not that farfetched, as I said it was done in ME1.

Things like concussion shots landing on u, well dont have shep or squadies be launched like ragdolls but rather just take the double dmg and thats it.

That was a pretty good feature of ME1. It would be great if powers did more than take damage, as long as it wasn't too out of control. You would need to get rid of the rigid cover system though. 

Spartas Husky wrote...

PS:....all this started from one issue I encountered really.... two actually. A why doesn't miranda have tech armor....doesn't make her unique? why enemies have it....

B. how come when I bring down an enemies tech armor it doesn't send out a blast

No pockets on that catsuit. 

Probably because the armor overload would be sudden death for Hardcore and Insanity players. Not that I'm supporting that as a good reason. 

Modifié par Googlesaurus, 26 décembre 2010 - 08:41 .

[Spartas Husky]

Googlesaurus wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

well we know how
to abuse harbringer now , I dont see it is fair to say "that idea can
be exploited so lets not implement it", you know as well as I every idea
gamers will abuse it... I find that close to "lets not make it an rpg
because gamers will try to find a glitch to max all skills even though
that is not what we've intended.

It depends on how bad you can "exploit" scripting and AI. There's recognizing patterns and adjusting your gameplay/pushing your strengths to defeat enemies, and then there's cheap spamming of tactics. Twiddling back and forth behind cover because you know Harby always brings the pseudo-Singularity on the third attack is an example of the latter. It takes a helluva lot more patience than thought or skill. 

true enough but like I said... things will be exploited no matter what and saying "they will be exploited so lets no input that feature" is no real reason to at least not have it. A half badly drawn picture is better than no picture at all.

Googlesaurus wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

AI's always have triggers, is not a bad nor hard. And there are simple things to lower abuse... no plan will ever be perfect but come on saying it "might" be exploited is no excuse to actually carry it out.

Chances of them using powers just as we would do. if shield is above 25% enemies use overloads.

If Armor is above 25% enemies use incinirate.

Powers that require health to be unprotected are not used unless there is no protection.

triggers like that while simple are near fool proof. Of course will there be unforseen events that we can exploit, of course, but that is no excuse to not increase the game's difficulty in a good way... rather than just beef up enemies hp.

But should the triggers be so specific? I like being surprised every once in a while. 

True I am just speaking as i come up with it but come on work with me here. I am coming up with them ina  few minutes and just one brain, they got an entire team of hundreds of time my experience and knowledge to work it out.

Besides those few triggers are not so bad... why not input those to start with?

I dont know why I get the feeling ur waiting so much for a surprise, that ur dismissing the small details that while dumb and simple on their own as a collective might add up to be the surprise ur speaking of.

Googlesaurus wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

Now on the biotic stuff you mentioned on the last sentence as Lazuli mentioned. No I am not saying to make NPC powers have the EXACT same effect, like floating through the air and the like.

ME1 is a clear example of it. When we used lift on enemies they lifted of the ground, but when those same powers were used against us we just dropped, unable to move. Not floating through the air not flying or anything, the effect was no different than being pushed knocked or w/e... but at least the attempt was made.

So yes I understand if suddenly you started to float in mid air and a concussion shot lands you get blasted half way across the map and lang god knows where. But just make you drop to at least incapacitate you is not that farfetched, as I said it was done in ME1.

Things like concussion shots landing on u, well dont have shep or squadies be launched like ragdolls but rather just take the double dmg and thats it.

That was a pretty good feature of ME1. It would be great if powers did more than take damage, as long as it wasn't too out of control. You would need to get rid of the rigid cover system though. 

Not sure what u ment by rigid??? the movements were not fluid enough?

Googlesaurus wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

PS:....all this started from one issue I encountered really.... two actually. A why doesn't miranda have tech armor....doesn't make her unique? why enemies have it....

B. how come when I bring down an enemies tech armor it doesn't send out a blast

No pockets on that catsuit. 

Probably because the armor overload would be sudden death for Hardcore and Insanity players. Not that I'm supporting that as a good reason. 

...so it makes the game more appealing and harder by another factor than mindlessly pumping hp is bad?

ok I understand though... in high levels have sentineles be slower maybe... dont take that and quote me but somehow it can be worked out...as I remember the sentinel description they are not front line runners but more on the support area... have them scripted in hard or insanity to stay back to maximize their cover and extra shielding?


PS: now if you want tot alk about vanguard charge... I have no clue on that one... I liked vanguards in ME1 better though... which really is the sentinel now.

Just like some find shooting all the time boring... I am the opposite but with charge can't get out of freedom's progress without getting bored of it....not sure why^_^

Modifié par Spartas Husky, 26 décembre 2010 - 08:53 .

[Googlesaurus]

Spartas Husky wrote...

true enough but like I said... things will be exploited no matter what and saying "they will be exploited so lets no input that feature" is no real reason to at least not have it. A half badly drawn picture is better than no picture at all.

Sensible tactics vs mindless spamming. It's really easy to design a combat system to cater to the latter without knowing it. 

Spartas Husky wrote...

True I am just speaking as i come up with it but come on work with me here. I am coming up with them ina  few minutes and just one brain, they got an entire team of hundreds of time my experience and knowledge to work it out.

Besides those few triggers are not so bad... why not input those to start with?

I dont know why I get the feeling ur waiting so much for a surprise, that ur dismissing the small details that while dumb and simple on their own as a collective might add up to be the surprise ur speaking of.

Having enemies use Incinerate on armored opponents isn't stupid. I don't want enemies to be necessarily restrained to such responses; randomize their actions . I know what you're saying though.  

Spartas Husky wrote...

Not sure what u ment by rigid??? the movements were not fluid enough?

When you're in cover, you're basically invincible. 

Spartas Husky wrote...

...so it makes the game more appealing and harder by another factor than mindlessly pumping hp is bad?

ok I understand though... in high levels have sentineles be slower maybe... dont take that and quote me but somehow it can be worked out...as I remember the sentinel description they are not front line runners but more on the support area... have them scripted in hard or insanity to stay back to maximize their cover and extra shielding?


PS: now if you want tot alk about vanguard charge... I have no clue on that one... I liked vanguards in ME1 better though... which really is the sentinel now.

Just like some find shooting all the time boring... I am the opposite but with charge can't get out of freedom's progress without getting bored of it....not sure why^_^

It's not a great reason in terms of gameplay, but the causal community would have issues with it.

You find charge boring?

Modifié par Googlesaurus, 26 décembre 2010 - 09:25 .

[Spartas Husky]

Googlesaurus wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

true enough but like I said... things will be exploited no matter what and saying "they will be exploited so lets no input that feature" is no real reason to at least not have it. A half badly drawn picture is better than no picture at all.

Sensible tactics vs mindless spamming. It's really easy to design a combat system to cater to the latter without knowing it. 

Spartas Husky wrote...

True I am just speaking as i come up with it but come on work with me here. I am coming up with them ina  few minutes and just one brain, they got an entire team of hundreds of time my experience and knowledge to work it out.

Besides those few triggers are not so bad... why not input those to start with?

I dont know why I get the feeling ur waiting so much for a surprise, that ur dismissing the small details that while dumb and simple on their own as a collective might add up to be the surprise ur speaking of.

Having enemies use Incinerate on armored opponents isn't stupid. I don't want enemies to be necessarily restrained to such responses; randomize their actions . I know what you're saying though.  

Spartas Husky wrote...

Not sure what u ment by rigid??? the movements were not fluid enough?

When you're in cover, you're basically invincible. 

Spartas Husky wrote...

...so it makes the game more appealing and harder by another factor than mindlessly pumping hp is bad?

ok I understand though... in high levels have sentineles be slower maybe... dont take that and quote me but somehow it can be worked out...as I remember the sentinel description they are not front line runners but more on the support area... have them scripted in hard or insanity to stay back to maximize their cover and extra shielding?


PS: now if you want tot alk about vanguard charge... I have no clue on that one... I liked vanguards in ME1 better though... which really is the sentinel now.

Just like some find shooting all the time boring... I am the opposite but with charge can't get out of freedom's progress without getting bored of it....not sure why^_^

It's not a great reason in terms of gameplay, but the causal community would have issues with it.

You find charge boring?

true to the first is  hard to dicern the two but if I have to have the latter or notihg.... I rather have the latter man, ME2 feels way to empty...

Of the cover in that way.... well without making pull actually levitate u I dont know... but there are ways... concussive shot might actually push u to some degree...at least while grounded....make enemies have grenade might be a good idea... either move or get blasted. Grenades are ment for that, to root out those behind cover to solid for rounds to penetrate.

Not hard to see an enemy fling a glowing red thing and know.... crap that is an incendiary move the fudge out... many games for that can be taken as ideas... gears for example... move or get inked to death.

I know... the first time I saw it I was awe striken thinking my lovable vanguard from ME1 is going to charge in with barrier on top.... but I duno, charge blast charge blast... seemed to be getting to me.

Then again some might argue, get high shoot get high shoot get high shoot, from a soldier is a similar tactic....

but I dont know at least with adrenaline I can choose at least to shoot a leg if I want to... charge shotgun to mid section, rinse and repeat did not appeal to me.

Maybe is because I dont have barrier, warp, and some things missing from my ME1 vanguard.... Sentinel in ME2 are closer to ME1 vanguards than they are to ME1 sentinels... maybe thats why sentinels appealed to me. duno.

still from what I have right now with ME2.. is empty devoided of anything... not even spamming, I rather have 20 harbringer spamming powers at me than just me mowing em down all the time in the same fashion.

Throw a shoe at somebody, make me want to get out fo cover... something... although bioware would then need to work out squads AI... because they already suck when a SCION goes icy on u... but o well

[lovgreno]

To OP: Interesting ideas but it might also make the squadmates a bit too alike. But I also think some more different powers per squadmate may make things more interesting. Not that I need more than the the alien trio of awesome from ME1 but I suppose that is a different topic.



Cloaking for Garrus would totaly be his style though.

[Spartas Husky]

Well some say they might be alike... but hey for example, if Kasumia and Garrus shared cloak... not the damn shadow strike.



Garrus cloak will only give him dmg for snipers and last shorter time. While Kasumis last longer and she gets a weapon fire speed increase. It might look the same but hell of a difference to both.



The same thing what I am saying for different powers, the powers for example of Warp that might be casted by Jack would have a hell of a difference from a warp casted by.... jacob.



or a barrier casted by jacob would be far more effective and different than a barrier casted by jack.



Not saying to have the same exact effects, but at least have em look alike to throw a wrench in the monotone routine.



Coz everytime I fight geth is the same, bring overload with someone... and thats it, all I use squadies is for shield take down after that I dont really mind if they die or something.



IN ME1... I loved how wrex might be able to charge if I tell him to with full barrier on top, as well as having Ash go all out with immunity, and even though my adept is lagging behind I know they can take care of themselves..... nobody can survive now without me having to babaysit em

[lovgreno]

Spartas Husky wrote...
Coz everytime I fight geth is the same, bring overload with someone... and thats it, all I use squadies is for shield take down after that I dont really mind if they die or something.

I agree. Once the shields/barrier/armours are down the enemies die fast so that's all you realy need squadmates for. I don't even bother resurecting fallen squadmembers anymore. So I just put some squadies I like to hear comment the fighting (wich is almost always my alien bro team) out of harms way (with the exception of the nigh invunerable Wrex of course) and solo the fight while acting as a meatshield for my buddies. It is kind of worth it just to hear things like "Scoooped and dropped!" and "Want some morrre?" though.

Modifié par lovgreno, 27 décembre 2010 - 03:17 .

[Spartas Husky]

Exactly... i want enemies to have my same skill set, even if they are drones using them mindlessly is better than just nothing.... a badly drawn monalisa is better than nothing at all lol... bad analogy I know but still