85 réponses à ce sujet

[errant_knight]

They really do everything they can to get one to go into that tavern, not only having Morrigan specifically tell you that the main reason for going there is the tavern where you'll be able to get information, but pointing it out on the map and hanging a bright light in front of it.

[IanPolaris]

errant_knight wrote...

They really do everything they can to get one to go into that tavern, not only having Morrigan specifically tell you that the main reason for going there is the tavern where you'll be able to get information, but pointing it out on the map and hanging a bright light in front of it.

I dunno.  I've almost skipped the tavern at least a couple of times in my various games especially if I was in a hurry to get through Lothering so I could get going with the 'real' game.  It is out of the way, and it's not that hard to skip.  After all you can do all the chanter's board quests without entering a single building, and the only building you are specifically directed towards (if you looted Henric's body) is the chantry.  Heck, if you are a rogue yourself, you can even pick Sten's cage without incident.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

[double post]

Modifié par IanPolaris, 24 décembre 2010 - 08:57 .

[Zy-El]

Well, if there were no Rogues in the game, you'd only have two things to do in the game: talk or fight.

There would be no sneaking around, no opening locked chests, no opening locked doors and no backstabbing. There'd also be no light or medium armor. If you're a mage, you wear robes. If you're a Warrior, you wear the heaviest armor because you can.

[IanPolaris]

Zy-El wrote...

Well, if there were no Rogues in the game, you'd only have two things to do in the game: talk or fight.
There would be no sneaking around, no opening locked chests, no opening locked doors and no backstabbing. There'd also be no light or medium armor. If you're a mage, you wear robes. If you're a Warrior, you wear the heaviest armor because you can.

Actually that's a good point and one more way the game really tries to force you to be a rogue.  If you aren't a rogue, you can not get (and certainly can not complete) a gold and XP rich series of quests called "Crimewave" and PC rogues and only PC rogues can get both branches of that questline.

-Polaris

[ejoslin]

IanPolaris wrote...

Zy-El wrote...

Well, if there were no Rogues in the game, you'd only have two things to do in the game: talk or fight.
There would be no sneaking around, no opening locked chests, no opening locked doors and no backstabbing. There'd also be no light or medium armor. If you're a mage, you wear robes. If you're a Warrior, you wear the heaviest armor because you can.

Actually that's a good point and one more way the game really tries to force you to be a rogue.  If you aren't a rogue, you can not get (and certainly can not complete) a gold and XP rich series of quests called "Crimewave" and PC rogues and only PC rogues can get both branches of that questline.

-Polaris

You most certainly can get Crimewave as a non-rogue.  Just put a point into stealing -- this makes Slim appear.  you DO need Zevran or Leliana to finish all the quests if you're not a rogue as the lockpick skill is necessary.

[IanPolaris]

ejoslin wrote...

You most certainly can get Crimewave as a non-rogue.  Just put a point into stealing -- this makes Slim appear.  you DO need Zevran or Leliana to finish all the quests if you're not a rogue as the lockpick skill is necessary.

You can't get the full set.  You need at least a point in stealth to be able to open up both sides, and only rogues can do that.

-Polaris

[ejoslin]

IanPolaris wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

You most certainly can get Crimewave as a non-rogue.  Just put a point into stealing -- this makes Slim appear.  you DO need Zevran or Leliana to finish all the quests if you're not a rogue as the lockpick skill is necessary.

You can't get the full set.  You need at least a point in stealth to be able to open up both sides, and only rogues can do that.

-Polaris

Nope, you need a rogue in your party with stealth to open up the stealth quests when talking to Slim.  Provided Leliana or Zevran have a point in stealth, it works.  Try it!

Edit: Actually, a quick peek at the code shows that you don't need a rogue with stealth in your party to take those quests (I didn't think you did because I usually respect Zevran, but I wasn't sure on that).  You DO need to tell him, "I want to know about it all." which is available if you have a point in stealing to get both sides of the quest.

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 décembre 2010 - 09:20 .

[IanPolaris]

ejoslin wrote...

Nope, you need a rogue in your party with stealth to open up the stealth quests when talking to Slim.  Provided Leliana or Zevran have a point in stealth, it works.  Try it!

Edit: Actually, a quick peek at the code shows that you don't need a rogue with stealth in your party to take those quests (I didn't think you did because I usually respect Zevran, but I wasn't sure on that).  You DO need to tell him, "I want to know about it all." which is available if you have a point in stealing to get both sides of the quest.

Yes you do.  I'm sorry but I've actually played all four possibilities.  He will show if you:

1.  Have a rank in stealing

OR

2.  Have a rank in stealth.

However, if you ONLY have a rank in Stealth, you will not get the bump and grab or "do it all" lines.  Likewise if you don't have the stealth, you don't get the "do it all" or "second story" lines.

I'm sorry, but I've done it on ver 1.4.  You have to be a rogue to get the full quest-line.

-Polaris

Edit:  A rogue in the party with a rank of stealth or even stealth and stealing isn't enough for "slim" to even show up.  Your PC has to have either stealing or stealth and even that isn't guaranteed to get you all the options.

Edit2:  The offfical game guide on page 313 also specifically says you have to have both stealth and stealing for slim to open up both sides of the quest.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 24 décembre 2010 - 09:30 .

[ejoslin]

IanPolaris wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Nope, you need a rogue in your party with stealth to open up the stealth quests when talking to Slim.  Provided Leliana or Zevran have a point in stealth, it works.  Try it!

Edit: Actually, a quick peek at the code shows that you don't need a rogue with stealth in your party to take those quests (I didn't think you did because I usually respect Zevran, but I wasn't sure on that).  You DO need to tell him, "I want to know about it all." which is available if you have a point in stealing to get both sides of the quest.

Yes you do.  I'm sorry but I've actually played all four possibilities.  He will show if you:

1.  Have a rank in stealing

OR

2.  Have a rank in stealth.

However, if you ONLY have a rank in Stealth, you will not get the bump and grab or "do it all" lines.  Likewise if you don't have the stealth, you don't get the "do it all" or "second story" lines.

I'm sorry, but I've done it on ver 1.4.  You have to be a rogue to get the full quest-line.

-Polaris

Edit:  A rogue in the party with a rank of stealth or even stealth and stealing isn't enough for "slim" to even show up.  Your PC has to have either stealing or stealth and even that isn't guaranteed to get you all the options.

Edit2:  The offfical game guide on page 313 also specifically says you have to have both stealth and stealing for slim to open up both sides of the quest.

I've done this plenty of times -- I usually play a warrior.  Now, if you're playing a rogue, if you dont' have a point in stealing you won't get the stealing line, that is true.  But as long as you have a point in stealing you can get both sides.  That particular dialog ALWAYS is open to me and I normally respec Zevran.  And then I looked up the code to be sure.

Here it is:

I want to make the note that the ONE condition leading up to these is that you have a point of stealing [edit] or be a rogue [end edit] -- that opens the quest line.  To this point, all the dialogs appear as there's no conditions, either stealing or stealth, on them.

Couldry: Well, one of my mates noticed your skills--nice piece of work that, uncommon caliber if you don't mind me saying--but I need to know what else you can do. (conversational)
Couldry: Ever done bump-and-grabs? Do much blending in shadows? Different opportunities for different folk, you know. (Intent, curious)

Warden:
1: I want to know about it all. (condition -- gen00pt_skills GEN_STEALING_LOW and then sets the flag: den200pt_thief PC_IS_BOTH_PICKPOCKET_AND_SNEAK)

Note the condition of this line appearing -- only stealing.  And this has been my experience in the game.  

Edit: For the others to appear (sorry)
2. Stealth I have covered, but I don't pick pockets. (NO conditions on this line as well -- it will appear for everyone.  The flag is set den200pt_thief PC_IS_SNEAK)
3. Swiping things is my specialty. (condition: gen00pt_skills GEN_STEALING_LOW and the flag is set den200pt_PC_IS_PICKPOCKET)
4. On second thought, I'll pass. (no conditions and no flags set).

Second edit: I always tell people not to trust the wiki and not to trust the official guide because, well, they're often mistaken. I should write another guide

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 décembre 2010 - 09:55 .

[IanPolaris]

I'm sorry but I know this is wrong. If you are a rogue with a rank of stealth, it also opens up (albeit not with the full line) so we already know there has to be at least two conditions.

-Polaris

Edit PS: I know that for a fact because I've actually played it (and played all four possible conditions).

Edit2:  Be a rogue is also wrong.  You have to have a rank of stealth.  I know because I had a rogue that had neither the first time he visited Denerim (early) and slim wasn't there.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 24 décembre 2010 - 09:58 .

[ejoslin]

IanPolaris wrote...

I'm sorry but I know this is wrong. If you have a rogue with a rank of stealth, it also opens up (albeit not with the full line) so we already know there has to be at least two conditions.

-Polaris

/shrug Test it, seriously.  I'm not wrong on this.  You can check the code yourself (it's in den200_couldry).  You can play it, deliberately testing it as well.

There is a LOT of bad information out there.  But if you check the code, note that the condition is a generic flag (the stealing one) not a defined one.

Edit: Even if you were correct (which you aren't), you're still claiming that everyone can get both sides of the quest -- it's just that you need Leliana or Zevran to have that point of stealth.  I will say again that it is NOT necessary (there's nothing in there that has additional or different dialog if Zevran or Leliana are in the party and have stealth or anything).

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 décembre 2010 - 10:01 .

[IanPolaris]

ejoslin wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I'm sorry but I know this is wrong. If you have a rogue with a rank of stealth, it also opens up (albeit not with the full line) so we already know there has to be at least two conditions.

-Polaris

/shrug Test it, seriously.  I'm not wrong on this.  You can check the code yourself (it's in den200_couldry).  You can play it, deliberately testing it as well.

There is a LOT of bad information out there.  But if you check the code, note that the condition is a generic flag (the stealing one) not a defined one.

/shrug  I guess we have different versions of the game then because I know I've played all possibilities and I know what was offered...and it was in line (that I found out later) with what the guide said.  Sure the guides are often wrong, but at least for me it wasn't in this case.

[ejoslin]

IanPolaris wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I'm sorry but I know this is wrong. If you have a rogue with a rank of stealth, it also opens up (albeit not with the full line) so we already know there has to be at least two conditions.

-Polaris

/shrug Test it, seriously.  I'm not wrong on this.  You can check the code yourself (it's in den200_couldry).  You can play it, deliberately testing it as well.

There is a LOT of bad information out there.  But if you check the code, note that the condition is a generic flag (the stealing one) not a defined one.

/shrug  I guess we have different versions of the game then because I know I've played all possibilities and I know what was offered...and it was in line (that I found out later) with what the guide said.  Sure the guides are often wrong, but at least for me it wasn't in this case.

You must have not had a point in stealing or picked the wrong line. Look at the code, seriously.  It HAS to trigger for everyone, the stealth comments.

It makes sense too.  I'll explain why I think it's set up this way.  Slim Couldry appears for a rogue PC no matter what.  Not everyone puts a point into stealth and/or stealing to begin with.  If the stealth lines weren't appearing for everyone, then you'd basically have him asking you for help, and face the real possibility that he wouldn't be able to give you a quest.  Having the stealth one appear (stealth is not required to actually complete any of the stealth lines) for everyone guards against this.

Edit: I JUST tested it, warrior, only one in party, one point in stealing.  Want to see the screen shot of that line appearing?  I'll put up the link in a second.  Game version 1.04, mods do not touch that file at all.

Or I can fraps it, the ss doesn't show anything other than the line there, which doesn't really show much (doesn't show my character class or the fact that there's no one in my party).

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 décembre 2010 - 10:13 .

[errant_knight]

IanPolaris wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

They really do everything they can to get one to go into that tavern, not only having Morrigan specifically tell you that the main reason for going there is the tavern where you'll be able to get information, but pointing it out on the map and hanging a bright light in front of it.

I dunno.  I've almost skipped the tavern at least a couple of times in my various games especially if I was in a hurry to get through Lothering so I could get going with the 'real' game.  It is out of the way, and it's not that hard to skip.  After all you can do all the chanter's board quests without entering a single building, and the only building you are specifically directed towards (if you looted Henric's body) is the chantry.  Heck, if you are a rogue yourself, you can even pick Sten's cage without incident.

-Polaris

Well, when you assume that Lothering isn't part of the 'real' game, or that talking to your companions isn't important, things like that are going to happen. That would occur in any area.

[Addai]

If this is really so bothersome to you, why not play a rogue? [/dumbquestions]

[IanPolaris]

Ejosin,



I just tested it not a week ago, and slim does NOT appear for a rogue PC no matter what. You have to have that point in stealth. As for the rest, I'll test it again...going over my backsaves, it appears the last time I tested the stealing only was in a prior version of the game, so you might, MIGHT be right about the stealing line.



You aren't right about stealth though. Even if you are a rogue, you have to have either stealth or stealing or Slim doesn't show.



-Polaris

[ejoslin]

IanPolaris wrote...

Ejosin,

I just tested it not a week ago, and slim does NOT appear for a rogue PC no matter what. You have to have that point in stealth. As for the rest, I'll test it again...going over my backsaves, it appears the last time I tested the stealing only was in a prior version of the game, so you might, MIGHT be right about the stealing line.

You aren't right about stealth though. Even if you are a rogue, you have to have either stealth or stealing or Slim doesn't show.

-Polaris

I tested it just 10 minutes ago on a warrior.  One point in stealing.  Not only did the quest line appear for me, but I could take both the stealing AND the stealth quests.

You DO need a point in stealing for Slim to appear or you need to be a rogue (perhaps if you're a rogue you need a point of stealth -- I'll have to find the exact script to verify that).  I do know once Slim DOES appear, as long as you have one point in stealing (any class), you can get all the quests.  Including the stealth ones.

Please just check the code yourself.  pretty please.  It's very clear cut.  The mods i use are ZDF and MRP, and neither touch that file.  Perhaps you're using a mod that changed it?

Edit: going through the code, I believe a rogue PC can either have a point in stealth or a point in stealing to get slim to appear -- for other pcs, they must have a point in stealing.  The stealth quests are open to everyone (as i showed before and tested as well to ensure there wasn't a different file used than the one in the toolset).

Second edit: There's an interesting flag that is defined, but is unused, that may have been meant for this quest that would actually do what Ian suggests.  Unfortunately, it is not used.  Generic flags are used instead.  Probably so all the quests remain open for all wardens.

Modifié par ejoslin, 24 décembre 2010 - 11:09 .

[IanPolaris]

ejosin,



Like I said when I looked over my backsave, it was a slightly different version so you might be right. I will check it myself when I get the chance regarding stealing. As for being a PC rogue, I *know* that just being a rogue isn't enough. Slim only appeared for my rogue after getting one rank of stealth.

[ejoslin]

IanPolaris wrote...

ejosin,

Like I said when I looked over my backsave, it was a slightly different version so you might be right. I will check it myself when I get the chance regarding stealing. As for being a PC rogue, I *know* that just being a rogue isn't enough. Slim only appeared for my rogue after getting one rank of stealth.

You're right.  In my last post I made that clear, but I don't believe i ever said it wasn't needed (only that i wasn't sure).  you need a point in stealth or a point in stealing for slim to appear.  everything else, i'm right about

Edit: For the sake of clear information, here is how it works:

You need a point in stealth or a point in stealing to get slim to appear.
you need a point in stealing to get the stealing quest lines (so it's possible for a rogue to not have this option)
Stealth quests appear for everyone if you pick the right dialog choice.

So, you do not need to be a rogue to get all of Slim Couldry's quests.  However, rogues will NOT get the stealing quests unless they have a point in stealing.

Modifié par ejoslin, 25 décembre 2010 - 12:03 .

[Addai]

Can Daveth pick locks at all? I've only tried on the ones out in the Wilds and assumed he didn't have any lockpick capability.

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

Can Daveth pick locks at all? I've only tried on the ones out in the Wilds and assumed he didn't have any lockpick capability.

He can pick locks with his raw cunning score (like any rogue can with no lockpicking skill).  He sucks at it though.  Sure he can pick most of the locks in the camp at Ostagar (but there is at least one chest he can't do).  He can't pick anything in the Kocari wilds nor can he find traps (and both are rather important in a couple of places there).

What's worse, Daveth gives no XP for picking locks.  None.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 25 décembre 2010 - 05:54 .

[Pro_Consul]

Another point is that in addition to getting your first rogue party member late, she is also not really all that well built for it. Her focus is split between dex and cunning and her talents similarly unfocused. It takes multiple level ups (or a respec) before she can reliably pick all the locked chests and disarm all the traps which you will be encountering. Not to mention, you are being pretty much forced to take Leliana in your party for the entire game (or use a respec mod), since Zevran's build is so hopelessly dex and archery focused that he will never be able to take up the unlock/disarm role.