85 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Another point is that in addition to getting your first rogue party member late, she is also not really all that well built for it. Her focus is split between dex and cunning and her talents similarly unfocused. It takes multiple level ups (or a respec) before she can reliably pick all the locked chests and disarm all the traps which you will be encountering. Not to mention, you are being pretty much forced to take Leliana in your party for the entire game (or use a respec mod), since Zevran's build is so hopelessly dex and archery focused that he will never be able to take up the unlock/disarm role.

Exactly.  It's take a second rate rogue (Lelianna) or be one yourself.

-Polaris

[Thiefy]

maybe it's just me, but i think there ought to be a difference between gameplays as characters with different classes. one of the benefits to being a rogue is that you WILL get more stuff and you will level easier as a result of the "sneakiness" - if only in the starting part of the game.



As other's have pointed out, it's not game breaking and you miss out on so little you shouldn't be complaining. That's the perk of being a rogue. Why should a warrior get the same amount of stuff or "easy exp" compared to a rogue? why? it's not fair? that's a perk of the class. you don't miss out on much just "small bonuses" which don't add up to much. that doesn't mean the game favors rogues. mages easily out power rogues, does that mean the game favors them? no.



what it means is that a warrior is a little more of a challenge to play, which is something a surprise I guess to most swordie lovers since they generall are the favored class in other rpgs and mmos.

[Pro_Consul]

Yep. Fortunately I get a kick out of playing a wicked, backstabbing pickpocketing, criminal member of the nobility. It just seems appropriate somehow...

[Addai]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Another point is that in addition to getting your first rogue party member late, she is also not really all that well built for it. Her focus is split between dex and cunning and her talents similarly unfocused. It takes multiple level ups (or a respec) before she can reliably pick all the locked chests and disarm all the traps which you will be encountering. Not to mention, you are being pretty much forced to take Leliana in your party for the entire game (or use a respec mod), since Zevran's build is so hopelessly dex and archery focused that he will never be able to take up the unlock/disarm role.

Zevran is archery based?  He's set up for a melee rogue.

Anyway... the assumption seems to be that you're entitled to get into every chest and disarm every trap from level one of the game.  Why?  The game is throwing challenges at you.  Are you also entitled playing a mage to not take any damage because it penalizes you for not being a warrior?  Are you entitled to AoE damage even if you leave Morrigan in camp?

I guess I don't consider Lothering "late in the game," and Leliana can open every lock in Lothering, so unless you'd like them to make every lock in the game an easy pick, that seems pretty balanced to me.

[tonnactus]

IanPolaris wrote...


True but not everyone will have the DLC or DCL achievements which unlock these items.  Even if they do, there is still the overall loss of XP.

-Polaris

And? Most important abilites are gained when players reach level 20 anyway,even before.And the enemies scale with the player in this game.Without Dlc content there is still the trick with making Potent Lyrium Potions.

Modifié par tonnactus, 25 décembre 2010 - 10:26 .

[White_Buffalo94]

Addai67 wrote...

Pro_Consul wrote...

Another point is that in addition to getting your first rogue party member late, she is also not really all that well built for it. Her focus is split between dex and cunning and her talents similarly unfocused. It takes multiple level ups (or a respec) before she can reliably pick all the locked chests and disarm all the traps which you will be encountering. Not to mention, you are being pretty much forced to take Leliana in your party for the entire game (or use a respec mod), since Zevran's build is so hopelessly dex and archery focused that he will never be able to take up the unlock/disarm role.

Zevran is archery based?  He's set up for a melee rogue.

Anyway... the assumption seems to be that you're entitled to get into every chest and disarm every trap from level one of the game.  Why?  The game is throwing challenges at you.  Are you also entitled playing a mage to not take any damage because it penalizes you for not being a warrior?  Are you entitled to AoE damage even if you leave Morrigan in camp?

I guess I don't consider Lothering "late in the game," and Leliana can open every lock in Lothering, so unless you'd like them to make every lock in the game an easy pick, that seems pretty balanced to me.

I always have Zevran as a melee and Leli as an archer TBH.

[Pro_Consul]

Addai67 wrote...

Zevran is archery based?  He's set up for a melee rogue.

He has a few melee talents and no archery talents, true. But the principle stat for a melee rogue is cunning, while for an archer its dex. And Zevran's build is weighted to split between them with heavier weight going into dex.  Heck, he even gets the Lethality talent so that he can use cunning instead of dex as his weapon combat modifier stat for daggers, but his stats are oriented as if he didn't have this talent. And he has no lockpicking skill whatsoever. Coupled with lower cunning, this lack of lockpicking skill rules Zev right out when it comes to dealing with traps and locks, since he will requires too many level ups to correct the imbalance. But he does come with a very nice bow, and high enough dex to be very dangerous with it right from the start. In fact, if you put him on autolevel he will end up being a complete terror as an archer, but will end up a mediocre dagger assassin at best.

Addai67 wrote...

Anyway... the assumption seems to be that you're entitled to get into every chest and disarm every trap from level one of the game.

Not entitled to open them all, no. If that were the case we would be lobbying to have traps and locks abolished outright. But your party should represent a good enough cross section of classes and talents so that all aspects of the game remain viable without forcing the player to choose this class/race/gender over another.

Addai67 wrote...

The game is throwing challenges at you.  Are you also entitled playing
a mage to not take any damage because it penalizes you for not being a
warrior?  Are you entitled to AoE damage even if you leave Morrigan in
camp?

You pick poor examples. If you want a lot of tanks in your party, the story provides the companions to allow this. If you want an AoE heavy party just put Morrigan and Wynne in there, pick a couple of AoE spells for each and watch them toast everything in sight, including you, each other and themselves. But if you want to be able to open locked chests and disarm traps, you must take Leliana and level her several times before she can make any real start on it. And then get used to having her in your party. Sure she can open some locks in Lothering, but you are still in nerf territory at that point of the story. Once you leave there and start do story missions, she will fail half or more of the unlock checks you come across (depending on where you decide to start). So it is either get used to Leliana... or play a rogue yourself.

The basic fact is that warrior is represented VERY strongly and from the very beginning; mage is well represented from Ostagar onward. Rogue is not represented well at all, since neither of the NPC rogues is any good at traps and locks without seriously leveling rehabilitation. In fact Zevran never really gets good at it unless you run him up past level 20 without ever popping any stat but cunning, by which point it no longer matters cuz your game is about over anyway.

[ashliij]

Why would you switch Zevran to archery and Leliana dual? They're already talented in the opposite sets at the beginning. Wouldn't be a problem later on, but early it'll really detriment your effectiveness, regardless of tactics.



Anyway, more on topic. I like creating archery rogues, though I don't like having to deal with wasting talents on trap mastery and lockpicking when I could be having combat improvements. (Arrow of Slaying, anyone?) I'd say just use Leliana, but I find her so irritating that I end up having Zevran along instead, as he's not too bad and a good comic relief. That leaves you with very little toward trap detection and opening chests. Normally it's just trash loot in these chests, but I find it important when there are locked, high level chests with plot-gifts (Such as the boots in Haven).



@Pro_Consul: I agree with you, and your last bit. It seems rogues are a bit lost in the mix.

[Addai]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Zevran is archery based?  He's set up for a melee rogue.

He has a few melee talents and no archery talents, true. But the principle stat for a melee rogue is cunning, while for an archer its dex. And Zevran's build is weighted to split between them with heavier weight going into dex.  Heck, he even gets the Lethality talent so that he can use cunning instead of dex as his weapon combat modifier stat for daggers, but his stats are oriented as if he didn't have this talent. And he has no lockpicking skill whatsoever. Coupled with lower cunning, this lack of lockpicking skill rules Zev right out when it comes to dealing with traps and locks, since he will requires too many level ups to correct the imbalance. But he does come with a very nice bow, and high enough dex to be very dangerous with it right from the start. In fact, if you put him on autolevel he will end up being a complete terror as an archer, but will end up a mediocre dagger assassin at best.

Interesting.  I never autolevel so I didn't realize he would autolevel that way.

I do use him as alternate archer, and I also respect Alistair to DW and use him as alternate archer.  Both of them are excellent archers without a single point in archery talents.  I still think of Zevran as primarily a melee rogue, though.  You can build a cunning rogue to deal very high damage with two daggers, but you don't have to.  Zevran is simply a killing machine whether built to cunning rogue or dex/str rogue.

You pick poor examples. If you want a lot of tanks in your party, the story provides the companions to allow this. If you want an AoE heavy party just put Morrigan and Wynne in there, pick a couple of AoE spells for each and watch them toast everything in sight, including you, each other and themselves. But if you want to be able to open locked chests and disarm traps, you must take Leliana and level her several times before she can make any real start on it. And then get used to having her in your party. Sure she can open some locks in Lothering, but you are still in nerf territory at that point of the story. Once you leave there and start do story missions, she will fail half or more of the unlock checks you come across (depending on where you decide to start). So it is either get used to Leliana... or play a rogue yourself.

I think you're exaggerating.  I hate Leliana so I park her in camp, and even before I started using a respec mod, you can get Zevran into cunning rogue territory before too long.  If it's that important to you, you make the sacrifices.  Just as I choose not to cart a healer around because I dislike Wynne, too.  For many people, that's the greater handicap.

Then again, I love both the respec and lock bash mods and would prefer to see both capabilities in the vanilla game. 

The basic fact is that warrior is represented VERY strongly and from the very beginning; mage is well represented from Ostagar onward. Rogue is not represented well at all, since neither of the NPC rogues is any good at traps and locks without seriously leveling rehabilitation. In fact Zevran never really gets good at it unless you run him up past level 20 without ever popping any stat but cunning, by which point it no longer matters cuz your game is about over anyway.

Most of the warriors you get are not tank material, however.  Sten, Oghren and Shale function pretty poorly as tanks until later in the game.

I just don't see it.  You get Leliana shortly after you pick up Morrigan, so there is no imbalance.

[DPSSOC]

Hmm honestly never thought about it as the game suggesting being rogue. I took the dispariity in numbers as a point of utility. Do you need more than 1 Rogue in a party? No. Is it smart to have more than 1 Rogue in a party? In my experience no. Same with Mage you only need one at a time so they don't need to give you all that many. Warriors on the other hand are your bread and butter, they're what keep your Rogues and Mages alive long enough to be of any use, so you need to have more. Rather than pressuring the player to pick Rogue I see it as the game saying, "We've got this covered," and the early chests are there so people who do play Rogues get something out of it.

[Giggles_Manically]

A good rouge can easily replace a warrior.



DPS in Dragon Age matters more than tanking ability to be honest. Mages as well can dominate better than warriors.



About the only time I have a warrior in the party is when the warden is a warrior.



Most games have Alistair, Sten, Oghren, and Shale sitting around playing Bingo the whole game.

Being able to do damage is far more important in Dragon Age then taking damage is.

[Addai]

DPSSOC wrote...

Hmm honestly never thought about it as the game suggesting being rogue. I took the dispariity in numbers as a point of utility. Do you need more than 1 Rogue in a party? No. Is it smart to have more than 1 Rogue in a party? In my experience no. Same with Mage you only need one at a time so they don't need to give you all that many. Warriors on the other hand are your bread and butter, they're what keep your Rogues and Mages alive long enough to be of any use, so you need to have more. Rather than pressuring the player to pick Rogue I see it as the game saying, "We've got this covered," and the early chests are there so people who do play Rogues get something out of it.

Depends completely on how you play.  I run parties of two or three rogues or mages.  If given my choice, I'd rather have either a rogue or mage than a warrior.  I don't rely on a tank and want the highest DPS.  Play a PC mage and take both Wynne and Morrigan with you- battles are insanely easy.

Modifié par Addai67, 26 décembre 2010 - 04:58 .

[DPSSOC]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
A good rouge can easily replace a warrior.

DPS in Dragon Age matters more than tanking ability to be honest. Mages as well can dominate better than warriors.

I agree, when I do play rogues (which is fairly often) they dominate, but they lack the survivability of my Warriors because as long as they avoid damage they're fine, but one hit and they're pretty much done.  Same with Mages, they're great as long as I can keep them out of the line of fire but as soon as an enemy get's past my Warriors it's game over.  Being able to dish out lots of damage is great, but if you can't survive the counter strike you're no good (IMO).

As for NPC's I've stopped giving Lel or Zev equipment because I can't respec them (Xbox) and no combination of tactics/equipment/micromanagement/etc. makes them live any longer.  They're useless and having brought both at once I've decided it's suicide.  So if I'm playing a Mage or Warrior I bring Lel along to open locks and accept that I have a 3 man party for all intents and purposes.

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Being able to do damage is far more important in Dragon Age then taking damage is.

I disagree but that's just how my playstyle works, I focus on soaking up or avoiding (if rogue PC) damage and slowly wearing enemies down.  I think my last fight with the High Dragon took about 30 minutes, maybe an hour.  Patience is a virtue and I've got it in spades.

Addai67 wrote...
Depends completely on how you play.  I run parties of two or three rogues or mages.  If given my choice, I'd rather have either a rogue or mage than a warrior.  I don't rely on a tank and want the highest DPS.  Play a PC mage and take both Wynne and Morrigan with you- battles are insanely easy.

Me, play a Mage, never.  I confess to having a completely irrational dislike of all dress wearing classes.  Mages in D&D, Adepts in ME (though I recognize they're not wearing dresses), Sorc or Necro in Diablo II, etc. I just can't bring myself to play them.  Part of it is I don't like having nothing to fall back on should my mana run out and I'm potionless (for whatever reason).  I could settle for an Arcane Warrior if I could actually play a Mage to level 7.

I agree it does depend on your playstyle and for me every Rogue in the party puts me one man down (unless PC), for combat.

[Corker]

ashliij wrote...

Why would you switch Zevran to archery and Leliana dual? They're already talented in the opposite sets at the beginning. Wouldn't be a problem later on, but early it'll really detriment your effectiveness, regardless of tactics.

 

My husband likes to play mages and to keep a second one in the party; he's usually also romancing Leliana and wants her in the party, too.  Since the two mages provide more than enough ranged damage, he turns her into a DWer.  Zevran ends up dual wielding pot scrubbers in camp.

/your mileage may vary

[IanPolaris]

Glaucon wrote...

I would imagine that the NPCs are specified in the way that they are for no other reason than it allows the PC to build a flexible party regardless of their initial choices with regard to class/Race.

But that's just it, you don't.  Proconsul is quite right.  Warrior as NPC is well represented from the beginning of the game, and Mage is well represented from Ostagar on (and Wynne isn't too terrible either and you can get her early....before a single main mission is completely anyways).  However, both rogues are terribly built for their stat layout, and if you aren't a rogue yourself, you are viritually forced to take Lelianna and take her with you all the time (forget the locks....it's the traps!  In particular such scenes as Wolves + Traps can occure anytime ofter Lothering), which is the very opposite of flexibility!  The only way to get around this is to be a rogue yourself.

-Polaris

[Ima Nutcracker]

I guess I look at it from a different angle- there is no reason for the player to be a rogue since there are few traps and hardly any chests that contain anything good. I like Lelianna for her archery skills and frequently take her along but really, there is no compelling reason to have a rogue in the party (I am not dissing them, though), and no reason at all to play as a rogue unless you like that combat style.

[IanPolaris]

Glaucon wrote...
When I played a Rogue I saw no use for Leliana whatsoever in my team. But I also found that my Rogue could only unlock around 50% of containers too during the early stages of the game. So it isn't a Leliana or Zevran specific weakness, but rather an example of how the game has been designed.

That's interesting because when I play as a rogue, assuming I start with the lower level missions first (Redcliff/circle) I find I pick locks with ease.  All of them.

I agree this was how the game was designed, but I'm arguing it's bad design.  If you aren't a rogue, you are basically forced to take Lelianna with you the entire game and that's the opposite of flexibility (Zev is worthless at lockpicking).  If you don't think so, then you've never had the joy of hitting a random enounter right after Lothering with a field full of traps surrounded by wolves that shred and overwhelm you.

So yeah, I do think this games unfairly hobbles you with regard to rogues.

-POlaris

[Addai]

DPSSOC wrote...
Me, play a Mage, never.  I confess to having a completely irrational dislike of all dress wearing classes.  Mages in D&D, Adepts in ME (though I recognize they're not wearing dresses), Sorc or Necro in Diablo II, etc. I just can't bring myself to play them.  Part of it is I don't like having nothing to fall back on should my mana run out and I'm potionless (for whatever reason).  I could settle for an Arcane Warrior if I could actually play a Mage to level 7.

I agree it does depend on your playstyle and for me every Rogue in the party puts me one man down (unless PC), for combat.

Potions are so cheap, there is no excuse but carelessness (or noob-ness) to run out.  I start planning for potion making from the origin onward, buying flasks and what elfroot is available before and after going into the Korcari Wilds.  It might get dicey in the Tower of Ishal, but after that it's really just minding your stock.

I do only play female mages because I have an irrational dislike of the robes on men, so I can understand that.  And even for the chicks, I get them in armor asap.  But it's just too fun to blow stuff up.  It got so I couldn't play anything but mages.  Going back to rogue, I thought, "you mean I have to stab all these people?" 

[Pro_Consul]

Addai67 wrote...

I do only play female mages because I have an irrational dislike of the robes on men, so I can understand that.  And even for the chicks, I get them in armor asap.  But it's just too fun to blow stuff up.  It got so I couldn't play anything but mages.  Going back to rogue, I thought, "you mean I have to stab all these people?" 

Addai, let me introduce you to my friend, Grenade.

[Addai]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I do only play female mages because I have an irrational dislike of the robes on men, so I can understand that.  And even for the chicks, I get them in armor asap.  But it's just too fun to blow stuff up.  It got so I couldn't play anything but mages.  Going back to rogue, I thought, "you mean I have to stab all these people?" 

Addai, let me introduce you to my friend, Grenade.

Pff, those things are worthless.  I mean, I use them, but they basically just soften people up.  Not neeeeaaarly as satisfying as a well-placed Fireball. 

[aygezgini]

Pro_Consul wrote...
He has a few melee talents and no archery talents, true. But the principle stat for a melee rogue is cunning, while for an archer its dex. And Zevran's build is weighted to split between them with heavier weight going into dex.  Heck, he even gets the Lethality talent so that he can use cunning instead of dex as his weapon combat modifier stat for daggers, but his stats are oriented as if he didn't have this talent. And he has no lockpicking skill whatsoever. Coupled with lower cunning, this lack of lockpicking skill rules Zev right out when it comes to dealing with traps and locks, since he will requires too many level ups to correct the imbalance. But he does come with a very nice bow, and high enough dex to be very dangerous with it right from the start. In fact, if you put him on autolevel he will end up being a complete terror as an archer, but will end up a mediocre dagger assassin at best.

Wait, what? Boy, if this is true then I went completely wrong directions with Zevran(Daggers with high DEX) and Leliana(Bow and high CUN). I knew I was kinda noob in this game but still...

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

IanPolaris wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

They really do everything they can to get one to go into that tavern, not only having Morrigan specifically tell you that the main reason for going there is the tavern where you'll be able to get information, but pointing it out on the map and hanging a bright light in front of it.

I dunno.  I've almost skipped the tavern at least a couple of times in my various games especially if I was in a hurry to get through Lothering so I could get going with the 'real' game.  It is out of the way, and it's not that hard to skip.  After all you can do all the chanter's board quests without entering a single building, and the only building you are specifically directed towards (if you looted Henric's body) is the chantry.  Heck, if you are a rogue yourself, you can even pick Sten's cage without incident.

-Polaris

Seriously? You walk right by it to leave the village. Sten and Leliana are literally 10 feet apart.

Personally 'get leliana' is one thing on my mental checklist of things to do in Lothering even if Im rushing through it. I can't get my head around someone missing her not once, but twice, when they know she's there.