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[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

IanPolaris wrote...

Pro_Consul wrote...

Another point is that in addition to getting your first rogue party member late, she is also not really all that well built for it. Her focus is split between dex and cunning and her talents similarly unfocused. It takes multiple level ups (or a respec) before she can reliably pick all the locked chests and disarm all the traps which you will be encountering. Not to mention, you are being pretty much forced to take Leliana in your party for the entire game (or use a respec mod), since Zevran's build is so hopelessly dex and archery focused that he will never be able to take up the unlock/disarm role.

Exactly.  It's take a second rate rogue (Lelianna) or be one yourself.

-Polaris

honestly, at level 7 even if you are a rogue yourself you cant open all chests or traps. You need to level either way.

I agree with Zevran. I'd rather they let you decide how to level him rather than what we get.

[IanPolaris]

Shinian2 wrote...

honestly, at level 7 even if you are a rogue yourself you cant open all chests or traps. You need to level either way.

I agree with Zevran. I'd rather they let you decide how to level him rather than what we get.

As long as you don't go to areas beyond your level, sure you can.  A PC rogue can have a cunning well into the thirties by Lothering (by contrast Lelianna's Cun is a pathetic 16 IIRC when you get her), which even with Lockpicking two, is easily enough to crack not only all the chests in Lothering, but all chests and traps in Redcliff and most of the lower floor tower ones as well (and you can quickly get lockpicking three for the rest).  Indeed if you go the typical Redcliff-Tower-Rest progression, you can pick every chest in the game by the time you hit the tower provided you do the optional quests first (and with these stats you'll have no difficulty doing the traps and chests in the DLCs).

By contrast Lelianna struggles even right after you get out of Lothering as Pro-Consul mentions.  The only effective way to offset this I've found is to quickly build up her approval (and thus bonus cunning) and Zev is almost a total disaster. 

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 28 décembre 2010 - 06:08 .

[Pro_Consul]

Shinian2 wrote...

I agree with Zevran. I'd rather they let you decide how to level him rather than what we get.

This would have been the best approach, IMO. If new members just automatically underwent a respec upon  initially joining your party, then this whole issue would be neutralized. You would have complete party flexibility  because you could set up each member from the beginning for the role you wanted them to play.

aygezgini wrote...

Pro_Consul wrote...
But the principle stat for a melee rogue is cunning, while for an archer its dex.

Wait, what? Boy, if this is true then I went completely wrong directions with Zevran(Daggers with high DEX) and Leliana(Bow and high CUN). I knew I was kinda noob in this game but still...

Yep, its true enough. If you look closely at the rogue's melee talents you will find one called "Lethality" which allows the rogue to use cunning as his combat modifier stat so long as it is higher than his strength stat. There is also the assassion talent "Exploit Weakness" which lets you use your cunning stat to apply extra bonus damage to backstabs, on top of the damage bonus Lethality gives you for your cunning score. And lastly, it directly affects your armor penetration, which is important when using lower damage weps like daggers.

As to your Leliana issue, no big if you gave her the Lethality talent. Lethality actually lets you use cunning as your combat modifier stat for ranged combat, too. For archers dex is only vital insofar as numerous archer talents have relatively high dex requirements. Beyond that, cunning is still your best friend so long as you remember to grab the Lethality talent. (Which makes it a mystery why Zevran's build scheme gives him Lethality out of the gate but make dex his primary stat.)

And of course the most rogue-centric stuff of all, traps and locks, are completely cunning dependent.

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 28 décembre 2010 - 08:28 .

[Dayshadow]

Rogues aren't weak pathetic pushovers.

There is no reason for them to have additonal utility skills that warriors don't have.

I can see if they were crappy, but they are far from crappy in combat.

[Addai]

Yep, its true enough. If you look closely at the rogue's melee talents you will find one called "Lethality" which allows the rogue to use cunning as his combat modifier stat so long as it is higher than his strength stat. There is also the assassion talent "Exploit Weakness" which lets you use your cunning stat to apply extra bonus damage to backstabs, on top of the damage bonus Lethality gives you for your cunning score. And lastly, it directly affects your armor penetration, which is important when using lower damage weps like daggers.

As to your Leliana issue, no big if you gave her the Lethality talent. Lethality actually lets you use cunning as your combat modifier stat for ranged combat, too. For archers dex is only vital insofar as numerous archer talents have relatively high dex requirements. Beyond that, cunning is still your best friend so long as you remember to grab the Lethality talent. (Which makes it a mystery why Zevran's build scheme gives him Lethality out of the gate but make dex his primary stat.)

And of course the most rogue-centric stuff of all, traps and locks, are completely cunning dependent.

Eh....  dexterity counts towards dagger damage, hit rate and it allows a rogue to survive close-combat mobs.  it is still the more important stat for melee rogues.  I don't even pick up Lethality for Zevran until later in the game when I've gotten the other stuff he needs more.  A bit of cunning + Lethality is just a boost to armor penetration and backstab damage.  By then he hardly needs it because he's killing stuff so fast, especially with some good paralyze runes on his weapons + Coup de Grace.  Zevran running Momentum is a beast. 

Cunning is more important for those relying on bard talents and it's useful for traps as you point out, but that's not supposed to be Zevran's specialty anyway.  He should be swapped in for a warrior.  He can pretty easily be re-spec'ed to a cunning rogue, though.

Modifié par Addai67, 28 décembre 2010 - 10:51 .

[Pro_Consul]

Addai67 wrote...

Eh....  dexterity counts towards dagger damage, hit rate and it allows a rogue to survive close-combat mobs.  it is still the more important stat for melee rogues.  I don't even pick up Lethality for Zevran until later in the game when I've gotten the other stuff he needs more.  A bit of cunning + Lethality is just a boost to armor penetration and backstab damage. 

This is a common misconception. It is not a matter of choosing between either dex or cunning for damage calculations. It is a matter of choosing between strength and cunning for both to hit and for damage, because with daggers AND with longbows, both the to-hit and the damage modifier is based on both the strength AND dex stats, unless you choose Lethality in which case it is based on Cunning and Dex. Either way you get the benefit of dex, but with higher cunning you get the added bonus of higher armor penetration, which improves actual damage numbers across the board, and higher backstab damage.

Here is the low down: dex can indeed modify to hit and dagger damage along with strength....or dex can do it teamed with cunning instead of strength, depending on whether you take Lethality and whether cunning is higher than strength. Assuming cunning is higher than strength (which is better be for a real rogue), and you take Lethality, then cunning becomes a combat modifier stat across the board, for ALL weapons, melee or ranged. If not, then all weapons default to their normal stat, be it strength, for swords and maces and such, or dex+str, for longbows and daggers. So you are left to choose which stat yields the greater overall benefits to your melee rogue, dex+str (w/o Lethality), or dex+cunning (w/Lethality). This one is rather a no-brainer. Then choose which stat, dex or cunning, should be higher to yield maximum benefits. And that choice is greatly simplified by the facts that cunning can add to your damage total TWICE, not just once, and that cunning also improves armor penetration to make more of your base damage actually count. Here is simple reduction of how it works, both for normal (face-to-face) attacks and backstabs:

DEX w/o Lethality:

1. Normal, you strike with your to hit chance modified by dex + strength, and then when a hit is scored you add your dex and strength modifiers to the damage. This damage number is then reduced by the target's armor score adjusted for your armor penetration (for which the only variable in this example is your cunning stat, which in this half of the example is assumed to be lower than dex.)

2. Backstab, as above except that you get a 50% bonus to damage (just like a crit), plus if you have Exploit Weakness you have added bonus damage based on your (lower than dex) cunning stat.

CUNNING w/Lethality:

1. Normal, you strike with your to hit chance modified by dex + cunning, and then when a hit is scored you add your dex and cunning modifiers to the damage. And then you reduce damage based on armor adjusted for your armor penetration (which in this half of the example is better because of your now higher cunning stat.)

2. Backstab, as above except that if you have Exploit Weakness you add your (higher than dex) cunning bonus in a second time.

So you see that with cunning as your primary stat, instead of dex, you get maximum use of the armor penetration and backstab components of damage calculation. And you STILL get to use your dex modifier to help with to hit and base damage calculations, except that you DON'T have to water it down with your presumably low strength stat, but rather can use your much higher cunning stat instead. With dex as your primary and no Lethality, you are stuck using your strength stat, which is likely quite lame, and your cunning stat plays no role. With Dex plus Lethality you are halfway in between, getting the advantage of using dex+cun for your base calculations, but still sacrificing in the areas of armor penetration and backstab damage due to your lower cunning score, thereby watering down the damage you can actually inflict.

When the calculations are all done, cunning is the hands down winner for both melee and archer rogues...and doubly so for the assassin specialization.

[Dayshadow]

And if it hasn;t already been mentioned: Persuade and intimidate require cunning.  Which is only useful combat wise for rogues. 

I started a City Elf and that arl's estate was clock full of chests that my warrior could not open.  It was like the game was laughing at me.. making fun of me because elves can't be warriors or something. I'd have sworn the text over one chest, instead of saying "insufficient skill", said "Why aren't you a rogue, knife ears." Then it proceeded to tell me that all the LI were human and not for me". Bioware is racist!!!

[Addai]

@ProConsul, I assumed everyone knew you combine dex with str for a dex rogue. DPS is not the only consideration, however. High dex means you never get hit, and you have a high hit rate. A rogue can be built different ways, and I'm aware dagger-dagger cunning rogue is the highest DPS build, however it's not absolutely necessary to build a rogue that way. And if your rogue is in the thick of melee, you want dex even if it's a cunning build for the defense.  You'll also need it in order to equip a lot of rogue-oriented stuff.

As for Coercion, you also get cunning from Fade bonuses so you don't need to use up leveling points to boost it.

Modifié par Addai67, 29 décembre 2010 - 09:55 .

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

@ProConsul, I assumed everyone knew you combine dex with str for a dex rogue. DPS is not the only consideration, however. High dex means you never get hit, and you have a high hit rate. A rogue can be built different ways, and I'm aware dagger-dagger cunning rogue is the highest DPS build, however it's not absolutely necessary to build a rogue that way. And if your rogue is in the thick of melee, you want dex even if it's a cunning build for the defense.  You'll also need it in order to equip a lot of rogue-oriented stuff.

As for Coercion, you also get cunning from Fade bonuses so you don't need to use up leveling points to boost it.

I also strongly dissent from Pro-Consul having tried multiple styles of rogue.  The Dex primary (very primary in fact) is IMHO far and the best build.  You want to have a very solid Cun true, but you can (and IMHO should) stop when your base is in the thirties somewhere.  It's true that you can't get the damage potential that a Cun primary rogue gets, but your DPS is actually better because you hit far, far more often AND as Addai mentioned, your defense goes through the roof which is absoutely crucial for dealing with certain scenarios such as all of Angarrak (to name one).    This is particularly important since most rogue builds of this sort will have generally poor armor for front-liners (20 str total at best generally which means you top out at drakskin light armors) and that means that anything that does hit you will massacre you.  Cun doesn't protect you.  Dex does.

-Polaris

[sithren]

This is an interesting thread. I'm not sure that Bioware is nudging players to be a Rogue. However, my experience has been that if you want a good rogue in your party, you have to do it yourself. That is, make your player character a rogue.

I think it is just an unintended consequence of how the characters are introduced in the game. I don't think it was done on purpose.

edit: in case anyone cares, I'm on my second run through the game. My PC is a mage. I tried using Leliana and Zevran for a while but quickly dumped them. It was taking to much time to get them to the point where they could unlock doors/chests. So my party is Alistair, Sten, Wynne, and my PC (a mage). Going pretty well.

Modifié par Sithren, 30 décembre 2010 - 02:35 .