392 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Interesting story. I played mostly a renegade but did choose paragon options a lot with my own squad. There were also times where it didn't seem logical from a really pragmatic standpoint to pick the "expected" renegade choice. An example is in ME2 where you have a choice to save an industrial district of a colony or its residential district. I thought even as a pragmatic type, you would save the residential because your human assets are more valuable and less replaceable. However if it came down to saving more people or letting a few die, such as in (a certain big decision at the end) in ME1, it's more compassionate to let the few die for the many.

Modifié par Addai67, 03 janvier 2011 - 04:23 .

[xlavaina]

@ the OP: That is ****ing awesome. No sarcasm. I didn't even read the whole thing [yet], but good for you (for going through the trouble) and good for your grandfather (seriously, how many people have grandparents that love video games, albeit in their own way?).

Okay I've read the rest. Honestly, your grandfather is correct; but renegade shep is supposed to seem dangerously flamboyant to the point of failure. Also don't forget that Shep is leading (at any given time in the field) only 2 extremely highly trained and self sufficient warriors. Shep isn't a CO from any conventional war, he's the leader of a highly specialized surgical strike force. 

Not that I am discounting your grandfather's point, as it is completely valid, but I'm just not sure if you can compare Shep and a CO from any previous all out US wars. Any conventional CO would be commanding... I don't know, I'm not a military man... lets say 100 men and some sergeants  (lets assume its a Lt) who have gone through only basic training. Shepard is commanding only 2 people who are debatably as lethal as he is. 

But in support of your grandfather's point: if Shepard's crew wasn't as trained as they are, Shep's renegade attitude would indeed probably get them killed most of the time. 

/my opinion

Modifié par xlavaina, 03 janvier 2011 - 04:52 .

[Ulzeraj]

Arken wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

 Personally I find the Paragon playthroughs to be unrealistic and downright insulting to my intelligence. 

Why not play a mix of the two? Be nice when it's appropriate and mean when it's appropriate.

Chaotic good is the way to go.

@OP

Epic grandpa! I bet he likes Blade Runner and Dr. Who also? I have an uncle like that. He was my hero when I was kid.

[Domdeegrpgc]

This thread was awesome and you chased away the OP. Thanks.

[SufferingTormentDarkness]

How come we cant kill off our team members in mass effect? i would like to use them as cannon fodder since they are useless anyway, Jacob would be first to go

[GodWood]

kill_switch_423 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

kill_switch_423 wrote...

ChuckNorris18 wrote...
You should show him what happens to renegade shep in mass effect 2 because of his insolence, I'm sure he'd agree with how it works out for them.

This. I think he'd like to know that said Shepard would not gain any loyalty and ultimately die, showing that the story reflects his own experiences.

Failing the suicide mission has nothing to do with being renegade.

I apologize, I should have clarified.  I'm 90% certain that, as a pure Renegade, Shep dismisses every squadmember's loyalty request.  Accepting that quest afterwards contradicts "pure Renegade", IMO, at least if not metagaming.

-sigh-
Being renegade is not simply picking the lower left dialogue option.
Using that flawed train of thought one cannot be "pure paragon" without being a womanizing douchebag.

[Phaedon]

GodWood wrote...
-sigh-
Being renegade is not simply picking the lower left dialogue option.
Using that flawed train of thought one cannot be "pure paragon" without being a womanizing douchebag.

Not a womanizing douchebag, but certainly an idealist singing 'Imagine' while throwing flowers at his/her enemies. Which is why is going "pure" renegade/paragon is stupid.

[PiEman]

GodWood wrote...

kill_switch_423 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

kill_switch_423 wrote...

ChuckNorris18 wrote...
You should show him what happens to renegade shep in mass effect 2 because of his insolence, I'm sure he'd agree with how it works out for them.

This. I think he'd like to know that said Shepard would not gain any loyalty and ultimately die, showing that the story reflects his own experiences.

Failing the suicide mission has nothing to do with being renegade.

I apologize, I should have clarified.  I'm 90% certain that, as a pure Renegade, Shep dismisses every squadmember's loyalty request.  Accepting that quest afterwards contradicts "pure Renegade", IMO, at least if not metagaming.

-sigh-
Being renegade is not simply picking the lower left dialogue option.
Using that flawed train of thought one cannot be "pure paragon" without being a womanizing douchebag.

John Shepard disapproves of this logic.

Besides, Captain Kirk was paragon.

[Da_Lion_Man]

SufferingTormentDarkness wrote...

How come we cant kill off our team members in mass effect? i would like to use them as cannon fodder since they are useless anyway, Jacob would be first to go

I'm sure every squad member would follow your Shepard to the death.

[The Avalon]

This is one of the most in depth and touching posts I've ever read. This shows why Mass Effect is the greatest series to ever be created. Thanks a lot for sharing this with us.

[DonJuliosBand]

I just smoked a bowl and happened to stumble on this post. Awesome share dude.

Hathur wrote...

(Long story.. don't read if you're not interested in the real-life story of a WWII vet).

Some context:

1) My Grandfather has loved early science fiction since he was a kid.. and even to this day he still enjoys reading sci-fi novels (awesome grandpa) - though he gets them on audio version since his eyes are too old to read comfortably.

2) He's not a gamer, never played a game in his life.

3) He likes Mass Effect 1 & 2... I made FRAPS recordings of my playthroughs as a paragon and put them on dvds so he could watch them like a movie... he absolutely loves the universe and characters... he's seen the Mass Effect story through the eyes of a female Shepard (as that was my primary character).

4) He's always asking me "When's the next one coming?" (ME3) .. and when will I record / edit all the videos, lol (I edit out the combat, he doesn't care about gameplay stuff.. only dialogue and story).

5) He served as a private during WWII, he fought during the D-day invasion and landed on Juno Beach where nearly 1/2 his unit was slaughtered by German machine guns... lotta good Canadians died that day. He fought in no less than 42 seperate combat engagements during the whole war, he shipped home at the end of the European theater, after the Americans & Russians took Berlin and destroyed the **** regime.

So.... on to the story... I visit my grandfather for the holidays and bring my PC... he was urging me to show him some of the "other Shepard" in ME1 & ME2 (he meant Renegade Shepard, since he's only seen Paragon).

Gramps is quiet and watching intently as I go through several key and pivotal moments of ME1 and ME2, but this time showing him the Renegade paths instead... this goes on for a good 3 hours before he pats my shoulder and says "that'll do boy."

Looking back over my shoulder to him, I see a look of discontent on his face... I know that look of disapproval as well... knowing better, I remain silent while he quietly ponders, his gaze seemingly distant now.

He shakes his finger at the paused game, his tone now firm and lecturous. He seemed... pissed.

"We had ****s like that in the war, boy." He says to me angrily (whilst pointing at renegade Shep). "Commanding officers who behaved like that in the field often found themselves inexplicably alone in a field... your history books only tell you about the so-called 'glory', boy... they don't tell you that these soldiers were humans... with morale.. and fear... and when you treated free men like cattle, not all would take it quiet... the history books don't tell you of CO's who were mysteriously left alone in enemy territory... or found a bullet in the ass from an 'accidental' rifle discharge."

I listened on and on... Gramps was reliving some dark moments of the war.. he's often told me of the realities of war, how the men of the allied forces were far from noble and honorable like our history likes to portray them as... that evil men often lead our troops and not all troops put up with it... not all men were able to cope with being treated as cannon fodder (which is what our heroes in WWII were often used as).

He went on to explain how very few free-willed man would ever follow a commanding officer like Renegade Shepard... his casual dismissal of those around him, his borderline cruelty to others... his belief he is better than everyone and that everyone has to fall in line or be crushed under his boot.... Gramps always emphasized that the good leaders in the second Great War inspired their men - treated them like a good father would... firmly, but with care.

He said a CO never dismissed his troops' opinions, their fears... he encouraged them, listened to his men, always gave them hope they'd live to see 1 more day.

My Grandfather served first under a CO who was an utter tyrant.. treated his men like garbage, like cannon fodder and was incompetent. No surprise most of the men under his command died in various battles - gramps got lucky and survived, one of only 8 remaining men who he landed with on Juno Beach (he was merged with a new unit when his original unit suffered over 90% casualties later on and he and a few men were all that were left).

His new commanding officer was night and day difference. Young (at the time), but bright... quiet, calm and collected. Gramps said he was a soft-spoken man who spoke reassuringly with his men during camp when he wasn't huddled over maps or on radio planning out the next day's actions or engagement. The men often voiced concerns, and the CO listened. He sat with his men during camp - listening to them... their fears, their hopes, their personal lives.... he got to know his men as people, not weapons.... and to the men, their CO felt like a human being - someone who cared whether or not they'd get turned to pink mist the next day (hit by artillery).

And gramps and the other troopers fought hard because they were inspired by their CO to do so... When they were given the order to hit a position - they did it with determined resolve and confidence that their CO wasn't sending them to die for nothing.. that their CO was looking out for them as best he could.

So when Gramps saw Renegade Shep, he was pulled back to a time where he saw leaders like that... and those leaders often got their men slaughtered... morale was always low, men didn't fight hard under that leadership... morale would break under those kinds of leaders (and this isn't documented in most war history either... that our troops were human, not superhumans who weren't capable of fleeing the field of battle when morale broke).

Gramps said good leaders who inspired the men under their command and treated them humanely, almost never ever had their units suffer morale failure even under severe casualties... they fought on, they fought hard.

He says that units in WWII that were labelled "lazy" or "troublemakers" were those that were lead by "jackasses"... leaders who knew nothing of motivating and inspiring men.... troopers turned "lazy" or into "troublemakers" because they were afraid of dying and didn't have any confidence they'd live to see another day if they went out into battle.... good leaders instilled hope and confidence even into the most cowardly of men.

When Gramps sees Renegade Shep... he sees those jackass leaders in WWII who did little more than get their men slaughtered.

Suffice it to say, he has no interest in watching any more of Renegade Shep heh.... he loved Paragon Shep because it reminded him so much of what the good commanders were like in the War... how important it was to have hope and inspiration in your darkest hour... and that hope came from good leadership.

Anyhow... sorry for the novel... but it was an emotional experience for me listening to his story... thought I'd share since it was ME related

(and no this is not a bashing on Renegade Shep... it's a game.. renegade shep is fine in a game... it was just interesting to hear from someone who knows what leadership means found the paragon Shep believable as a great leader, but not the renegade shep)

[Aggie Punbot]

kill_switch_423 wrote...

 I'm 90% certain that, as a pure Renegade, Shep dismisses every squadmember's loyalty request.  Accepting that quest afterwards contradicts "pure Renegade", IMO, at least if not metagaming.

When you're 90% certain of something, there's a 10% chance you're wrong. And in this case, you are wrong. You can choose the bottom right option and still complete the loyalty missions. Alignment has nothing to do with whether the player chooses to attempt to complete a loyalty mission, as I've seen quite a few people that play as a paragon go into the suicide mission without all of the squadmates being loyal.

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 05 janvier 2011 - 06:55 .

[Harshalv]

I have no idea why some people would think that a 85 year old guy can't watch a 3 hr movie? My granddad used to play video games till 70 and he still watches TV all day. He turned 83 in 2010. Or maybe I should record a video of him watching TV to prove some people on internet that I'm telling the truth??



OP great story.

[Estelindis]

Your grandpa sounds awesome. Thanks for sharing your experience - and thanks to him for helping Europe win its freedom.



In my opinion, renegade Shepard should have been written more like a heroic, unorthodox outsider rather than a sometimes-funny jerk. In most cases, I just cannot play renegade Shep because I don't think the decisions make sense. The whole idea of RenShep is that s/he does what s/he has to do in order to get results - but when a paragon can get the same or better results without making the same ruthless sacrifices as a renegade, this loses all meaning. I think choices like Bring Down the Sky, Legion's loyalty mission, what to do with Nerali Bhatia's body, and the Collector base were excellent examples of genuine paragon / renegade distinctions - each way of doing things had an advantage and a disadvantage, and it's a function of your values which advantage matters most that you're willing to allow such-and-such a bad result to obtain it - or which bad result is so unacceptable that you simply cannot choice such-and-such an option.

[Haventh]

Thanks for sharing, i will remember this. Gave me a good perspective.

[Ulzeraj]

I dont know if its only me but I cant play renegade. As soon as I start treating nice people like trash I lose connection to the character and I need go back to goody-good paragon route.

[Reever]

Nice story, thanks for sharing =)

[ezeruz]

Touching story, thanks for sharing.

[Funkcase]

Interesting read, thanks for that OP.



Your grandpa sounds like a great guy.

[kill_switch_423]

TS2Aggie wrote...

kill_switch_423 wrote...

 I'm 90% certain that, as a pure Renegade, Shep dismisses every squadmember's loyalty request.  Accepting that quest afterwards contradicts "pure Renegade", IMO, at least if not metagaming.

When you're 90% certain of something, there's a 10% chance you're wrong. And in this case, you are wrong. You can choose the bottom right option and still complete the loyalty missions. Alignment has nothing to do with whether the player chooses to attempt to complete a loyalty mission, as I've seen quite a few people that play as a paragon go into the suicide mission without all of the squadmates being loyal.

See, my view of a "pure" Renegade Shepard is that (s)he doesn't give a crap, just as (s)he says when you choose that bottom-right.  If (s)he didn't give a crap, and was true to his/her "character", (s)he wouldn't go back on his/her decision.  This debate could definitely get into meta-gaming, however, and that's another topic.  Having a Renegade Shepard say one thing and do another takes away from his/her overall Renegadey-ness, in my opinion, as there must have been something in-character to change his/her mind.  Now, I can see if you choose to say no to everybody, and then are told by whoever tells you that you need their loyalty to complete the mission succesfully, rather than they need to to prevent casualties, then I can agree with that.  Meh, defining what makes a "pure" Renegade is a silly argument anyway, in retrospect.  My fault.

[Bluko]

Your grandpa is awesome OP. The fact he can appreaciate the game without even playing it really says a lot.

I basically feel the same  when it comes to Paragon/Renegade Shepard. Paragon Shepard feels like a far more believable commanding officer simply because he cares about those under his command. Paragon Shepard is the true Hero type more or less. Renegade Shepard on the other hand is basically a bad guy fighting off other bad guys. I mean if Renegade Shepard was working for the Reapers like Saren did, most would consider him a bad guy or villain I think. That said not every renegade choice is bad, but if you've played a full and true Renegade playthru you gotta admit that Shepard is pretty despicable. For the most part a mostly Paragon Shepard feels a lot more believable.

Modifié par Bluko, 11 janvier 2011 - 08:38 .

[Bullets McDeath]

"Pure" Paragon and "Pure" Renegade are both equally ridiculous, unbelievable characters.

"Pure" Paragon Shepard is so prissy, sentimental and naive, he's like the kind of character Kirk Cameron would play in some horrible "Christian" Sci-Fi movie (not meant as religon bashing, but "Christian" movies, music, etc, I think even most Christians recognize as horrible). "Pure" Renegade Shepard cannot even be taken seriously, he's like an SNL Digital Short parody of a "badass" action hero. With Andy Samberg as Vin Diesel, to wit.

I prefer to be mostly Paragon towards the Crew and friendly entities, and Renegade towards anyone dumb enough to point a gun at me (or try to interview me on television). You can mix it up however you want, my point is that playing "all-the-way" in either direction results in a ridiculous character, I think.

That said, I don't even believe this story. This is just anti-Renegade propaganda disguised as a heart warming tale of family bonding. Pics or it didn't happen.

Modifié par outlaworacle, 11 janvier 2011 - 08:52 .

[Aggie Punbot]

outlaworacle wrote...

"Pure" Paragon and "Pure" Renegade are both equally ridiculous, unbelievable characters.

"Pure" Paragon Shepard is so prissy, sentimental and naive, he's like the kind of character Kirk Cameron would play in some horrible "Christian" Sci-Fi movie (not meant as religon bashing, but "Christian" movies, music, etc, I think even most Christians recognize as horrible). "Pure" Renegade Shepard cannot even be taken seriously, he's like an SNL Digital Short parody of a "badass" action hero. With Andy Samberg as Vin Diesel, to wit.

I prefer to be mostly Paragon towards the Crew and friendly entities, and Renegade towards anyone dumb enough to point a gun at me (or try to interview me on television). You can mix it up however you want, my point is that playing "all-the-way" in either direction results in a ridiculous character, I think.

That said, I don't even believe this story. This is just anti-Renegade propaganda disguised as a heart warming tale of family bonding. Pics or it didn't happen.

I agree with all of this. My Shepard identifies as Renegade but he isn't a complete ass to his crew or innocent bystanders. If you want to go by fandom terminologies, however, I suppose he'd be considered a Renegon.

And this story does seem pretty fake. As mentioned earlier, it seems to have been very carefully crafted to address every positive point about being a paragon (of which there are a few) and every negative point about being a renegade (of which there are a few). It's actually kind of saddening to see how easily people can be fooled by something like this. I expect people that swallow anything they're told is why those nigerian scammers thrive. :-P

[Ozzyfan223]

I think thats what the problem is with renegade shepard (At least in ME2). At least in ME1 you could get things done in a badass way without being an ass towards your team and people who weren't enemies or asses.. Whereas in ME2 if you're not completely commited to being either one you lose loyalty.

In ME2, renegade shepard is just a d-bag, to everyone. And your gramps is right. The belief that anyone would want to follow him/her is very shallow. I prefer Paragon shepard, just because he is a someone who would be admired in the real world, get people to join his cause, and get things done without sacrificing his soul (ie by disregarding civilians and such)