392 réponses à ce sujet

[Hathur]

Schneidend wrote...

Further, how is a commander supposed to be heard over the din of battle if they don't raise their voice? There's a reason a large percentage of veterans have PTSD, and it isn't because somebody didn't calmly whisper a suggestion of an order to their sensitive, virgin ears.

One can shout or speak loudly without barking the way a drill sergeant does... I should know, I have to do it on a daily basis with the garbage truck I operate

Regardless of that, you're caught up on symantics of the physical act of speaking / communicating to soldiers.... My grandfather says its how you treat the soldiers under your command. Treat them like a tyrant, expect little out of them. Treat them like a firm but fair father figure and you'll garner their respect and obedience.

[didymos1120]

TS2Aggie wrote...

I really do wish that the renegade bashing on this forum would stop.

1.  It won't.
2.  People paragon-bash all the time.
3.  Why do you even care?

[Bigdoser]

Xilizhra wrote...

Wouldn't it be better if all of us here who don't have military experience leave the theorizing to people who do? Just in general, I'm not attacking anyone's arguments specifically or anything.

True we can't really say anything since most of us are not even in the military. 

[Hathur]

Bigdoser wrote...

A tough as nails commander can still respect their troops, also why is it suprising that a soldier would abadon their CO when they treat them as cannon fodder?

Gramps says its a crime that Canadian, American and British history books don't cover or mention this.

It happened far more often than you can imagine... but it's not popular to talk about. Even most of my grandfather's war buddies wouldn't talk about it even amongst themselves... only a few ever really ackknowledge it happened (and generally its vets like my Grandfather who don't see WWII as a purely noble, good vs evil event where the Allies were pure as angels who are willing to even mention it existed).

EDIT: and for those with rose-colored glasses, it wasn't just desertion that happened... men who were pushed too far and dehumanized too much by officers would eventually snap and arrange an inexplicable death for the CO. It wasn't common, but it happened. A lot of troopers thought about it - but only a few went through with it.

Modifié par Hathur, 25 décembre 2010 - 04:01 .

[upsettingshorts]

didymos1120 wrote...

3.  Why do you even care?

People attach their egos to all kinds of things:   Sports teams, video game consoles, versions of Commander Shepard...

[TripLight]

I've got to say I am so glad I snuck a peak at the General Board today. I think this post gave me the most enjoyment of any that I have read, ever, here. Thank you so much for sharing. My grandpa was a WW2 vet as well, and I like to think he would have agreed with your grandfather.



And my parting words to others, you only need to “defend” if you feel threatened. Real classy taking a damn good post relaying a veterans opinion on the games and turning it into another "Who has the Bigger ****" Contest.

[b1n0ry]

There's a difference between the douchebag CO's  your grandpa met and commander Shepard. Shepard is brilliant, one of a kind, the one. It doesn't matter how he acts.

Modifié par kRaYzi3, 25 décembre 2010 - 04:40 .

[Aggie Punbot]

didymos1120 wrote...

TS2Aggie wrote...

I really do wish that the renegade bashing on this forum would stop.

1.  It won't.
2.  People paragon-bash all the time.
3.  Why do you even care?

1. One can hope.
2. I actually wish all the [alignment] bashing would stop, quite frankly.
3. Because it's making a formerly-enjoyable forum a chore to trudge through in order to find something actually entertaining and not full of people whining about what other people do in their own games.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

3.  Why do you even care?

People attach their egos to all kinds of things:   Sports teams, video game consoles, versions of Commander Shepard...

I hope this wasn't a passive-aggressive insult towards me for simply getting tired of all the 'Renegade players have to be punished in ME3!' statements I've seen around here.

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 25 décembre 2010 - 04:45 .

[Xilizhra]

3. Because it's making a formerly-enjoyable forum a chore to trudge through in order to find something actually entertaining and not full of people whining about what other people do in their own games.

Really? I've seen plenty of people who say that Renegade Shepard is a dick, but comparatively few who match the people who say that Paragon players are themselves stupid because their character is.

[Aggie Punbot]

Xilizhra wrote...

3. Because it's making a formerly-enjoyable forum a chore to trudge through in order to find something actually entertaining and not full of people whining about what other people do in their own games.

Really? I've seen plenty of people who say that Renegade Shepard is a dick, but comparatively few who match the people who say that Paragon players are themselves stupid because their character is.

Meh, maybe I haven't been surfing this forum as long as you have. I'm just getting tired of all the alignment-wars that are going on here. I don't think paragon players should be punished for their choices, I don't think renegade players should be punished for their choices and I just wish that people would just stop attacking other players for how they play their own games.

Consider that my wish for the new year. :-)

[Schneidend]

I think both alignments should have some "oh, crap, that kinda backfired on me" moments in the duration or epilogue of ME3.



Saved the Rachni Queen? Her presence completely imbalances the ecosystem of a distant world, and you have her aid at the cost of the lives of a budding race of primitive sentients.



Killed the Rachni Queen? The lack of rachni support ships allows the reapers to push through and destroy an Alliance Fleet.



Something like that.

[rma2110]

To the OP I love your Grandpa. Military men and women have a unique perspective. Thank you for sharing.

[Kajan451]

Hathur wrote...

He went on to explain how very few free-willed man would ever follow a commanding officer like Renegade Shepard... his casual dismissal of those around him, his borderline cruelty to others... his belief he is better than everyone and that everyone has to fall in line or be crushed under his boot.... Gramps always emphasized that the good leaders in the second Great War inspired their men - treated them like a good father would... firmly, but with care. 

He said a CO never dismissed his troops' opinions, their fears... he encouraged them, listened to his men, always gave them hope they'd live to see 1 more day.

My Grandfather served first under a CO who was an utter tyrant.. treated his men like garbage, like cannon fodder and was incompetent. No surprise most of the men under his command died in various battles - gramps got lucky and survived, one of only 8 remaining men who he landed with on Juno Beach (he was merged with a new unit when his original unit suffered over 90% casualties later on and he and a few men were all that were left).

Quite Frankly... 3 Things came to my mind...

First
----------------------------
I figure you don't need to go to a war, albit i have served and been to bosnia (admittedly that wasn't as bad as WW2 or present day theatres... but i don't really think getting Shot at is that much different in any of those days)...

to me it seems like common knowledge that people won't want to throw their lives away for a person who is a total ***. I didn't need to join the army to know i wouldn't want to put my life at stake for some *** ... Its like having a job with a total *** as boss. You won't like to stay around and work overtime if you do not have to, much less you would devote yourself to your job. The better your boss, the more likely you are comfortable with doing that one extra hour which wasn't nessassary and noone asked you to do it, but still did it, because... well you are glad to help a 'friend' 

Its not that different in an Unit of Soldiers. If the guy calling the shots is an *** you won't be as willing to take risks, you will be reculant, you will be left alone with your fears and there will be, most likely a much more dreadful mood in your squad. I have had drill instructors who been *** pitting people against each other, belittling your worries and pointing out your inabilities for everyone to display. Instead of encouraging you to do something, they basically just yelled and laughed... which resulted in a rather swallow bond among us squadmates, noone bothered to share with one other and it was pretty much just a picking order. On the other hand, when i went to Bosnia, i had some Squadleader who was looking out for us. Bringing a bottle to drink in the evenings when it was a particular rough day... or when he noticed your not good at something he would take you aside and try to help you and be understanding, instead of giving you sh** because you suck and making you dig another hole in the ground as punishment. In the end people among us were much more easy to share with each other, which made it a stronger bond and made me want to look out for my Squaddies. A feeling i didn't have for people i never really cared about, or even loathed.

So yeah... i think it shouldn't be a supririse to people that people who are liked are much better when they demand a lot of dangerous stuff as people who give less than a **** about what you might think or if you life or die.


Second
-----------------------
Its not uncommon for tyrannical Squadleaders to happen to be in the way of a stray bullet, if it can be arranged. If you push people to much with your uncaring behavior... and these people grow accustomed to kill people, as i can tell you, you do (the first is the worst... and at least in my case as it happened it didn't bother me until we were back at camp and i had time to realize what had happened), or at least i did grow accustomed to shoot at people. And i don't think i would have had much of a trouble to happen to ... you know... kind of accidently... Friendly Fire happens.. and some have it coming.

Not sure how it is nowdays, but it was like that in the War. I always been intrigued by war, which was why i joined the army... and i have spoken to many soldiers in the past. Of course most people i speak to are germans.. being german myself.. so i don't know how it was for the allied forces... but I know ... or rather used to know, as by now both died of old age, who admitted to have been part of killing their squadleader, because he was an tyrannical, heartless, sadistic piece of work. He managed to get his unit to the point where they decided it was better to end him before he could end them. And i can't imagine it to be much different for the other side.


Third
--------------------
Its a game and people want to play stuff like that. They want to play misanthrophic bastards who kick people in the face as they go down to the ground. I am not say only young people do that, as i have friends who used to be like that (even though now that we are way passed our 30ths.. its a little different), but i'd like to think that many people grow a bit more "peace loving" as soon as they grow older. 10-15 years ago, i delighted in games like Doom (the first one) where you would run around with a chainsaw and dismember "monsters"... and i certainly would have delighted in a renegade shepard who is kind of Dirty Harry style... of kicking peoples arses without caring what people around them might think.

Its not mine... and i have to force myself to play an all renegade... some of the decisions actually quite revulse me... but at the end of the day.. its a game. Seeing how successful movies like Saw are... or other people who make money by selling violence and disregard for people... it should be obivisous to all of us that at least some part of us does delight at seeing other people suffer. For some its the suffering of others, for others its the power you get from it...or they have entirely different reasons for it... and mind you, don't get me wrong... there is nothing wrong with it, in my opinion. Its human nature, people using violence on those around them when they can get away with it, is as much part of it as other people strifing to overcome these urges.

I don't think you could produce a game, in which you are allowed to take choises, in this time and day, in which you do not include Renegade Options and be successful with your product. People expect to be able to play the bad guy, the dirty harry... and they expect to have the choice to take drastic measures.

I certainly disapprove of the way germany, for example, tries its very best to rid videogames of violence... for germany violence is like sex for america. Its bad and better not be touched, because you could go blind or happen to like it. To me people being an *** is part of the experiance of .

I certainly would want to miss the renedage options, even though i'd probably never be able to play all renedage, because that certainly makes you looks like a sociopath borderlining on serialkiller, who most likely, if he hadn't joined the army to satisfy his urges to kill people legally, would have started to stalk people in dark corners and slit their throats with pointy objects after he tortured them for days.

Modifié par Kajan451, 25 décembre 2010 - 05:39 .

[huntrrz]

joriandrake wrote...

I only have a single paragon action that I regret, that is letting the mercenary chick flee that claimed she just recently joined and was innocent, still, I probably would do it again as at that time Shepard has no evidence against her, you can't lock her up anywhere (sadly no option for that), and shooting her just feels too wrong at that time.

I also let her run off the first time, but the second time through I took my cue from what the Volus told me - "They commit a murder to earn their uniform".  If I'd paid more attention the first time, I'd have known she was a killer just from the fact she was in Eclipse armor.

[DarkSeraphym]

scyphozoa wrote...

I enjoyed this post. I find a lot of renegade choices are very cruel and inconsiderate. This is a big problem with the morale system in ME entirely. Unlike Jade Empire or KOTOR, there are no set parameters for your behavior and there is little justification other than being a selfish dick.

I hope ME3 can introduce better justification for the behavior and choices for Shep.

Perhaps I misread what you said, but I'm not sure I see how Way of the Closed Fist in Jade Empire didn't involve being a selfish dick a lot of the time. I killed the Forest Guardian only because the Cannibals were willing to pay me to do it and I tainted the Water Dragon out of a selfish motivation to gain power. Likewise, I opted to keep Death's Hand as a tool for power. When some of my party attempted to stand up against my desire for power, I binded them to my will and left them without a free will of their own. I'm not really seeing how a lot of the main choices in Jade Empire for the Closed Fist weren't driven by selfishness.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 25 décembre 2010 - 05:51 .

[didymos1120]

In JE, you can literally kick the dog. Or, actually, puppies. Why? Just because you're a giant ******. Or in JE-speak, because you follow "The Way of the Closed Fist".

Modifié par didymos1120, 25 décembre 2010 - 05:59 .

[didymos1120]

huntrrz wrote...
I also let her run off the first time, but the second time through I took my cue from what the Volus told me - "They commit a murder to earn their uniform". 

Certain squadmates will even helpfully remind you about that.

[DarkSeraphym]

didymos1120 wrote...

In JE, you can literally kick the dog. Or, actually, puppies. Why? Just because you're a giant ******. Or in JE-speak, because you follow "The Way of the Closed Fist".

Exactly. Like I said, I may have misinterpreted his point but Jade Empire is one of the games that comes to my mind first when I think about a game where the "evil" morality is nothing but a ******. In fact, I think you could make the case that Jade Empire is one of the few games in existence where the protagonist isn't an anti-hero under the bad morality, he or she is just a full blown villain trying to destroy Sun Li and more or less take his place.

Sorry to everyone on this thread though, I didn't mean to derail it.

[Encarmine]

Kajan451 wrote...

[Quite Frankly... 3 Things came to my mind...

First
----------------------------
I figure you don't need to go to a war, albit i have served and been to bosnia (admittedly that wasn't as bad as WW2 or present day theatres...

Well you must of seen a different Bosnia to me then. I stopped reading once i got to that stage.

This thread has derailed massively, 99% of you dont have a clue what your talking about in relation to serving on the frontline. Im guessing most who do, havnt been posting here like myself. This isnt the place to discuss such things.

How any veteran can find comparibles to real life and the decisions made by a star trek style space commando is beyond me. 

Even if your tale is true OP, your Grandfather was making a passing observation, you have read way too deep into the whole thing.

[Bluefuse]

This explains the best how I felt playing through a renegade playthrough. I couldn't take it seriously, some of the things you can say are inhumane and unnecessary.

[Saren100]

Hathur wrote...


5) He served as a private during WWII, he fought during the D-day invasion and landed on Juno Beach where nearly 1/2 his unit was slaughtered by German machine guns... lotta good Canadians died that day. He fought in no less than 42 seperate combat engagements during the whole war, he shipped home at the end of the European theater, after the Americans & Russians took Berlin and destroyed the **** regime


(

A) Russians took Berlin not Americans.

Alot of good Germans died on dday too.

C) This is an interesting story actually an older gentleman interested in sci fi seems to be a rarity although I dont see how commander shepards actions are comparative to real life actions by real life military commanders.

[Hathur]

Saren100 wrote...

C) This is an interesting story actually an older gentleman interested in sci fi seems to be a rarity although I dont see how commander shepards actions are comparative to real life actions by real life military commanders.

Tired of repeating myself, so I'll say it for the last time.

My grandfather's comments & story wasn't about how Shepard's actions ape a real commander's actions (or a Commander at all, since commanders are far removed from their forces.. but rather, commanding officers - i.e. Lts, Sgts. etc).... his comments and feelings were about how he felt that the paragon Shepard made strong connections with his / her subordinates and treated them as human beings (whereas he felt the Renegade did not, and thus to him was not belieavable as a functional leader).

At no point in my OP did I write that my grandfather said Shepard's tactical & strategic actions reminded him of the war..... but instead, the way Shepard bonded with her subordinates strongly reminded him of how is own commanding officers connected with him and the rest of the men they served with (or in the case of the Juno Beach landing... how he was forced to serve under someone who didn't make that connection and treated his men like tools).

Kindly don't put words in my mouth (fingers?) or that of my grandfather's....

Again... the story was about the BONDS between leaders and soldiers (and that of paragon shep / squad vs renegade shep / squad) - not their strategic choices.

(And yes, you're correct that Russia took Berlin - I always get it into my head that the Americans sent troops in as well, only because they did technically enter Berlin but only after the Russians crushed the remaining German forces... but to be fair, it was Russians who did all the fighting, Americans came in to try to secure unoccupied parts of Berlin...how that ended of course is now history).

Modifié par Hathur, 25 décembre 2010 - 06:57 .

[Eradyn]

Dunno why people have a tough time grasping the concept, OP. As for me, I enjoyed your grandfather's insights. I hope he enjoys ME3, whatever BW does with it.