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[Addai]

(huband)

I'm having a good time playing mage character through Origons something I haven't done in a year.    And I just got to Branka at the beginning of the Anvil of the Void area.     And I'm again bothered by the question, "How the hell did Oghren ever manage to land her as a spouse?"

So theories please, or if you have insider information of game lore that would shed light on the issue I would like to hear it.    I take it, its a political marriage, but I just don't see much benefit for Branka's side of thing.   Oghren I know is a warrior of renown but the match still seems to be pretty one sided as one side is obviously too good for the other.   I can only think this is some kind of variation on the ugly guy / hot wife trope that has become popular the last decade.   (Branka I don't think is attractive but she definitely is too good for Oghren by dwarf noble standards)

Modifié par Addai67, 24 décembre 2010 - 07:09 .

[Wulfram]

Branka was Smith Caste when they married, I think, and Warrior caste seems to out rank Smith.

[Mercuriol]

Didn't Ohgren win that Arena thing before? Or something else?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Branka became paragon after marrying Oghren.So it was a smith marrying a warrior. Oghren was definitely higher in status.

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

(huband)

I'm having a good time playing mage character through Origons something I haven't done in a year.    And I just got to Branka at the beginning of the Anvil of the Void area.     And I'm again bothered by the question, "How the hell did Oghren ever manage to land her as a spouse?"

So theories please, or if you have insider information of game lore that would shed light on the issue I would like to hear it.    I take it, its a political marriage, but I just don't see much benefit for Branka's side of thing.   Oghren I know is a warrior of renown but the match still seems to be pretty one sided as one side is obviously too good for the other.   I can only think this is some kind of variation on the ugly guy / hot wife trope that has become popular the last decade.   (Branka I don't think is attractive but she definitely is too good for Oghren by dwarf noble standards)

If you talk with Lorimar (sp?) in the Diamond Quarter, he explains it a little.  Branka was raised to noble caste AFTER she was married to Oghren.  It is my understanding that Dwarves of all castes (except casteless) arrange their marriages, and in this case Branka (and her family) was able to put together (because even then Branka was a superlative smith) a very large dowry by the standards of the smith caste, and if possible dwarves like to marry up (and dislike to marry down).

By contrast while Oghren was a fighter of renown and a member of the warrior caste (only one step down from being noble cast), Oghren was.....Oghren which probably explains why no noble or warrior caste lady would touch him with a ten-foot pole (or more literally let Oghren touch them with his pole but I digress).

So, by the standards of Dwarven Culture, this was a perfect match.  Branka marries up into the Warrior Caste (one step closer to nobility) while Oghren gets a half-way decent wife when no one else would touch him.  No one knew that Branka would wind up becoming a paragon.

Ah, love....and matches made in hell.

Even Dagna hints at this sort of mindset when she talks about her father and how he simply wants to bid her off to the highest dowry.

-Polaris

[Sarah1281]

So, by the standards of Dwarven Culture, this was a perfect match. Branka marries up into the Warrior Caste (one step closer to nobility) while Oghren gets a half-way decent wife when no one else would touch him. No one knew that Branka would wind up becoming a paragon.

I don't think that's quite it. Branka doesn't become a member of the warrior caste. Her daughters would all be smiths as well while any sons would be warriors. Oghren was very respected before Branka left even if he was still probably a bit crude. I refuse to believe that such a promising and powerful warrior couldn't have an arranged marriage with someone else of his caste. Marrying outside caste isn't unheard of either. The twins you face in the Proving had one smith parent and one warrior parent as well. Branka was a very promising smith and Oghren was one of the best the warrior caste had to offer. Much of the disgusting aspects of Oghren's personality were implied to be aqcuired post-abandonment. Why wouldn't the people at the low end of the warrior caste offer up their daughters for him to marry to gain status? If no one would marry him because he was so 'icky' that the power and status they'd get from such an alliance wasn't enough then why would such a talented smith be offered up instead?

[IanPolaris]

Sarah1281 wrote...

If no one would marry him because he was so 'icky' that the power and status they'd get from such an alliance wasn't enough then why would such a talented smith be offered up instead?

The same reason that prominant daughters of merchant families would be offered to nearly bankrupt but noble families in the 17-19th centuries.  Money for social position.  Sure Branka's daughters would be smiths but her sons would be warriors, and she would live in the household of a warrior which seems to be a fairly major step up from smith in Dwarven society.

I am not saying this is the reason, mind you, but it makes sense to me.

-Polaris

[Sarah1281]

But that doesn't explain why, since he was near the top of the warrior caste, those at the bottom of the warrior caste wouldn't jump at the chance to marry him. We know that the highest members of a caste tended to act like they were above the lowest members of the caste directly above them, after all, and Bhelen proved that those at the bottom of the noble caste are often willing to do all sorts of despicable activities in order to raise their status. Compared to that, what's marrying one somewhat crude and drinking man? It seems like DA:O Oghren is DA:A Oghren-lite and before his life fell to pieces so abruptly I think that he was a lot less crude and drunken (though he did have some elements of it). It really doesn't seem like enough to make it impossible for him to convince a warrior family to give him a bride, particularly when a high-ranking smith family was willing to. If he were that bad, I'm sure they could have found another warrior for Branka.

[IanPolaris]

Sarah1281 wrote...

But that doesn't explain why, since he was near the top of the warrior caste, those at the bottom of the warrior caste wouldn't jump at the chance to marry him. We know that the highest members of a caste tended to act like they were above the lowest members of the caste directly above them, after all, and Bhelen proved that those at the bottom of the noble caste are often willing to do all sorts of despicable activities in order to raise their status. Compared to that, what's marrying one somewhat crude and drinking man? It seems like DA:O Oghren is DA:A Oghren-lite and before his life fell to pieces so abruptly I think that he was a lot less crude and drunken (though he did have some elements of it). It really doesn't seem like enough to make it impossible for him to convince a warrior family to give him a bride, particularly when a high-ranking smith family was willing to. If he were that bad, I'm sure they could have found another warrior for Branka.

We don't know that Oghren was near the top of the warrior caste.  We know that he was one of the best warriors of his generation and that earned him honors in the deep roads, but that doesn't mean he (politically) was near the top of his caste.  Gorim (for example) clearly outranked him and he was warrior caste as well.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  It's also possible that at the time, Branka and Oghren were genuinely fond of each other (I don't say love because Dwarves other than casteless seem to give short shrift to that).

Modifié par IanPolaris, 24 décembre 2010 - 11:02 .

[Sarah1281]

Gorim's family moved to the top of the warrior caste because his grandfather was a great hero in the Deep Roads and the fact that his family is in service to the ruling family also added to their prestige. Oghren had so much honor and prestige that when he drunkenly killed a noble's son in a first blood proving he wasn't executed or even imprisoned, he just can't carry a weapon in the city. Getting on top politically has a lot to do with honor and Oghren won a lot of it. If you'll remember, Frandlin Ivo was working to get his house higher up in the noble caste through his Deep Roads expeditions and Proving fights.

[IanPolaris]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Gorim's family moved to the top of the warrior caste because his grandfather was a great hero in the Deep Roads and the fact that his family is in service to the ruling family also added to their prestige. Oghren had so much honor and prestige that when he drunkenly killed a noble's son in a first blood proving he wasn't executed or even imprisoned, he just can't carry a weapon in the city. Getting on top politically has a lot to do with honor and Oghren won a lot of it. If you'll remember, Frandlin Ivo was working to get his house higher up in the noble caste through his Deep Roads expeditions and Proving fights.

Yeah but that doesn't mean Oghren was that high up in his caste.  You're right that within the caste there does seem to be at least some room for upward and downward mobility, but I'm not convinced that Oghren was that high up in his caste even though he won honors.  I think he was a rising star in his caste as was Branka but that's not quite the same thing.

Like I said, however, I think it has more to do with the fact that money changed hands and it also might have to do with the fact that only Oghren could stand Branka's rather abrasive personality (and according to Oghren she was always a bit 'soft in the skull').  Also from what Oghren says, the two at one time did seem to at least be fond of each other.

-Polaris

[Reika]

I'll have to go digging in the toolset, but I'm pretty sure that Lorimar said Oghren didn't become a mess until after Branka took her House and left Oghren behind.



Sometimes I still wonder why she did leave him behind since he seemed pretty devoted to her. Unless she knew that Oghren wouldn't go along with her about getting the Anvil.

[IanPolaris]

Reika wrote...

I'll have to go digging in the toolset, but I'm pretty sure that Lorimar said Oghren didn't become a mess until after Branka took her House and left Oghren behind.

Sometimes I still wonder why she did leave him behind since he seemed pretty devoted to her. Unless she knew that Oghren wouldn't go along with her about getting the Anvil.

Best guess?  Branka wanted some more quality time with Hespith and didn't think Oghren would understand.  I got the distinct impression that Branka was always on the hair-trigger edge of sanity even during the best of times, and she was never interested (sexually anyway) in men.

-Polaris

[Reika]

Hm, good points there, Ian. Forgot about that part.



And she was described as a genius, sometimes that's just a small step away from madness.

[Hyper Cutter]

IanPolaris wrote...
and she was never interested (sexually anyway) in men.-Polaris

I'm not sure about that part, iirc Oghren implies she was pretty wild in bed at one point.

[IanPolaris]

Hyper Cutter wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
and she was never interested (sexually anyway) in men.-Polaris

I'm not sure about that part, iirc Oghren implies she was pretty wild in bed at one point.

That doesn't mean she was terribly interested in men.  Homosexual people have had relations (often very physical ones) that were heterosexual in part to keep up appearences.  I just got the impression that overall she just wasn't into men (but was definately into sex).

-Polaris

[Sarah1281]

Would a lesbian woman enjoy heterosexual sex? If Branka is a paragon, she doesn't really have to do anything, much less sleep with Oghren. What's Oghren going to say? He can't get his own wife to have sex with him? That would make him look bad instead of making her look lesbian.

[IanPolaris]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Would a lesbian woman enjoy heterosexual sex? If Branka is a paragon, she doesn't really have to do anything, much less sleep with Oghren. What's Oghren going to say? He can't get his own wife to have sex with him? That would make him look bad instead of making her look lesbian.

She might.  Like anyone else, there are many sorts of Lesbians, and some might just like sex of any sort.  Certainly going the other way, there are homosexual men who still enjoy heterosexual sex but are attracted/prefer men.  I got the impression that Branka was...well...passionate...in all respects.

-Polaris

[ejoslin]

I saw absolutely nothing about Branka's sexual preferences other than she had a woman lover in the deeproads (Hespith) and that she and Oghren were hot in bed together. I could be missing something, I admit. but i just don't recall anything in game that indicated anything more personal than that.



My impression? They got married because they cared for each other. Oghren seemed to care for her a lot (when he asks her what happened to the girl he used to know, gah), and she cared enough that she started to leave a message for him in her journal.



by the time you meet her, she was absolutely crazy, true, but I'm not sure that has much bearing on her relationship with Oghren when they were first wed.

[mousestalker]

I think she could take him. He's a two handed fighter and she uses a sword and shield. She also has that lyrium multiplying thingy she does. Oghren solo against Branka would be tough.



Also she's crazy whereas he still loves her. He'd pull his punches. She wouldn't.



People are funny that way.

[Sarah1281]

It just seems too romantic to assume that two rising stars in castes right next to each other decided that they were madly and passionately in love with each other and had to get married, particularly given that marriage among the higher castes in Orzammar seemed to be more about status and alliances than love and what happened to them both.



Oghren can grow to care for her and she can almost leave him a message AFTER they were already arranged to be married.

[Sarah1281]

I never said they could not have loved each other, just that their society and houses do not point to them marrying for love.