176 réponses à ce sujet

[sinosleep]

Chris Priestly wrote...

I'd also suggest that people who complain about a "dumbed down" story, check out the recent awards ME2 has won like best RPG of the year, best story of the year, best character of the year, GAME of the year, etc.

Unfortunately Chris

[Iakus]

SSV Enterprise wrote...

"Dumbed down" is not the same thing as "inferior". "Dumbed down" could be a reason why the story might be "inferior", but other reasons include bad characters, bad writing, bad pacing, bad plot twists, etc. "Dumbed down" generally refers to an intentional cutback in quality, but many unintentional problems can also happen.

This is a good point.  I saw good stuff in the ME 2 story.  I just think it was badly put together.  Whether it was an effect of the "shifting focus of the game, budget constraints, Bioware biting off more than it could chew content-wise, or maybe I really am just a hater and refuse to admit it.  At any rate, I don't think they set out to screw the story to appeal to the masses.  I mean, how does that make sense?  That doesn't mean I don't think the story was, in fact inferior compared to past works.

[Terror_K]

Chris Priestly wrote...

I'd also suggest that people who complain about a "dumbed down" story, check out the recent awards ME2 has won like best RPG of the year, best story of the year, best character of the year, GAME of the year, etc.

You guys really need to stop just pointing at awards as an excuse rather than actually backing up your claims. It just reminds me of the showrunner of The Simpsons, Al Jean, always pointing at awards despite the fact that The Simpsons hasn't been good for about a decade now.

Sorry, but I'm just sick of this attitude from BioWare lately that whenever something of thiers is criticised they just scoff at anybody who brings it up and start pointing at accolades. What happened to the BioWare who could admit their weaknesses and talked to the fanbase about possibly improving it? Now we've just got these snide, arrogant comments that basically say, "ME2 is practically perfect in every way, and if you don't like it, TS."

[marshalleck]

Holding ME1 up as the holy grail of "immersive" non-linear action-RPGs is utterly laughable. The first Deus Ex, as well as the System Shock series of games blow Mass Effect out of the water. Whenever someone holds Mass Effect up as a shining example of perfection, I can immediately spot someone with a very poor frame of reference.

[Topographer]

As far as the single player vs multiplayer argument goes, I need to have a single player game to fall back to when multiplayer upsets me. Single player is like a rock, and me that rock will always have a place in the market as I am not alone.

[Topographer]

marshalleck wrote...

Holding ME1 up as the holy grail of "immersive" non-linear action-RPGs is utterly laughable. The first Deus Ex, as well as the System Shock series of games blow Mass Effect out of the water. Whenever someone holds Mass Effect up as a shining example of perfection, I can immediately spot someone with a very poor frame of reference.

That's a nice opinion you've got there.

[Terror_K]

marshalleck wrote...

Holding ME1 up as the holy grail of "immersive" non-linear action-RPGs is utterly laughable. The first Deus Ex, as well as the System Shock series of games blow Mass Effect out of the water. Whenever someone holds Mass Effect up as a shining example of perfection, I can immediately spot someone with a very poor frame of reference.

I'd actually say ME1 does a better job of being immersive and less like a game due to it's more cinematic styling, and that it actually has the better universe and setting too. Gameplay wise though, you are absolutely correct, especially in the case of Deus Ex. It just simply nailed the gameplay mechanics of the Action RPG, and even more than 10 years later there hasn't been anything to rival it.

[Topographer]

Nashiktal wrote...

Assume the worst, hope for the best. Worked for me since I grew out of childhood. If its bad, you are not disappointed, if its good, well pleasant surprise isnt it?

I'd rather be depressed once in a while than all the time thank you.

[TheMiroHa]

Wow, am I the only one who's amazed by the rudeness and attitude of this community towards Bioware?

[Lumikki]

Terror_K wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

I'd also suggest that people who complain about a "dumbed down" story, check out the recent awards ME2 has won like best RPG of the year, best story of the year, best character of the year, GAME of the year, etc.

*snip*

Sorry, but I'm just sick of this attitude from BioWare lately that whenever something of thiers is criticised they just scoff at anybody who brings it up and start pointing at accolades. What happened to the BioWare who could admit their weaknesses and talked to the fanbase about possibly improving it? Now we've just got these snide, arrogant comments that basically say, "ME2 is practically perfect in every way, and if you don't like it, TS."

I'm sick of people with attitude that if the game isn't best for them SELF, it can't be best for someone else.

How many times we have heared here in forum your opinions how ME1 is so "perfect". It's all about who are the target customers of some game and what kind of games fits for those customers taste. You have done some good feedback and suggestions here, but you are also so stuck in this attitude that if I don't like it, it sucks. You talk about improvements, what is fine, but to improve to who?

When you get in you big skull that Mass Effect as serie is defined by Bioware as what it is, not you. Bioware just says they don't get awards for nothing, there is reason why they get them. Why Bioware should not be proud of the awards which they have earned, because you don't like it?

Good example is you post here barking to Biowares how they don't know what they do, because they should listen your opinions? Damm, Bioware is professional game development company and you are telling them to how to do they job, in they own forum. Why developers aren't more in ME2 forum, if you don't know it, then you don't really know much about human nature. Hostile enviroment doesn't make good ground for discussion. Also are you angry because they don't talk to you or because they dare to disagree with you?

Ask you self, is your attitude and behavior in this board any better?

Modifié par Lumikki, 25 décembre 2010 - 10:17 .

[sinosleep]

TheMiroHa wrote...

Wow, am I the only one who's amazed by the rudeness and attitude of this community towards Bioware?

Nope, this happens ALL THE TIME, and people wonder why the devs rarely post.

[Kolos2]

Terror_K wrote...


Sorry, but I'm just sick of this attitude from BioWare lately that whenever something of thiers is criticised they just scoff at anybody who brings it up and start pointing at accolades."

And it kinda points one more time that Chris is a horrible community leader i dont need PR but what i would love is a word or two about ME3; EA did only trow us a bone with this trailer but hey dont make early conclusions:unsure:

Modifié par Kolos2, 25 décembre 2010 - 09:40 .

[Fraevar]

TheMiroHa wrote...

Wow, am I the only one who's amazed by the rudeness and attitude of this community towards Bioware?

Some of it goes overboard, but when BioWare representatives do not engage in any discussions themselves as they have done in the past, the vitriol tends to build up. Priestly trying to wave off any critisism by bragging about awards does not help to foster a positive tone. Also, keep in mind that the ME team was a lot more active after ME1 released and more open towards critisim, but these days they seem to be largely ignoring anything that is not absolute praise of ME2. That is my observation, anyway.

[marshalleck]

Terror_K wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Holding ME1 up as the holy grail of "immersive" non-linear action-RPGs is utterly laughable. The first Deus Ex, as well as the System Shock series of games blow Mass Effect out of the water. Whenever someone holds Mass Effect up as a shining example of perfection, I can immediately spot someone with a very poor frame of reference.

I'd actually say ME1 does a better job of being immersive and less like a game due to it's more cinematic styling, and that it actually has the better universe and setting too. Gameplay wise though, you are absolutely correct, especially in the case of Deus Ex. It just simply nailed the gameplay mechanics of the Action RPG, and even more than 10 years later there hasn't been anything to rival it.

Level design as well. For every mission there is a "brute force through the front door" option, a "hack the security cameras and gates" option, and a "stealth in through the air ducts" option. All builds were viable and truly differentiated at every point of the game. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 25 décembre 2010 - 09:46 .

[Terror_K]

Delerius_Jedi wrote...

TheMiroHa wrote...

Wow, am I the only one who's amazed by the rudeness and attitude of this community towards Bioware?

Some of it goes overboard, but when BioWare representatives do not engage in any discussions themselves as they have done in the past, the vitriol tends to build up. Priestly trying to wave off any critisism by bragging about awards does not help to foster a positive tone. Also, keep in mind that the ME team was a lot more active after ME1 released and more open towards critisim, but these days they seem to be largely ignoring anything that is not absolute praise of ME2. That is my observation, anyway.

^ This, pretty much. I was going to post something similar in response, but I'll just point at this now. I'm actually more annoyed at their attitude than I am at the faults I felt ME2 suffered from. How am I supposed to have confidence in ME3 being a quality game when devs don't even seem to acknowledge the faults of the last one?

[Gibb_Shepard]

Chris Priestly wrote...

I'd also suggest that people who complain about a "dumbed down" story, check out the recent awards ME2 has won like best RPG of the year, best story of the year, best character of the year, GAME of the year, etc.

No offense Chris, but bragging about awards doesn't make the story any more superior than it currently is. As shown by many, many other games, a good story isn't needed to achieve GOTY.

[sinosleep]

Delerius_Jedi wrote...

Some of it goes overboard, but when BioWare representatives do not engage in any discussions themselves as they have done in the past, the vitriol tends to build up. Priestly trying to wave off any critisism by bragging about awards does not help to foster a positive tone. Also, keep in mind that the ME team was a lot more active after ME1 released and more open towards critisim, but these days they seem to be largely ignoring anything that is not absolute praise of ME2. That is my observation, anyway.

Maybe if people could phrase their criticism in a manner that didn't include terms like "dumbed down" "ME isn't an RPG" and similar put downs then they might get better responses. If I was dev and was constantly being berated with nonsense like "ME 2 isn't an RPG" then I wouldn't think that saying "funny that, we've won several rpg of the year awards and no shooter of the year awards" would be off base.

You get responses appropriate to the actions you take to evoke them in the first place.

Bioware has been VERY open to criticism on the strategy forums and through Christina Norman's twitter with regards to GAMEPLAY issues or bugs with certain armors/weapons/skills. Then again, things seem to be far more civil in that secion of the forums.

[Fiery Phoenix]

I know awards don't even consider the story. Not think, but know. Unless of course the award in question is story-specific, they generally don't take into account story and plot stuff.

[joltmajor]

Chris Priestly wrote...

I'd also suggest that people who complain about a "dumbed down" story, check out the recent awards ME2 has won like best RPG of the year, best story of the year, best character of the year, GAME of the year, etc.

Not to be glib, but that has absolutely no bearing on whether the story of ME2 was dumbed down when compared to ME1 or not.  It simply means there was nothing better this YEAR, and looking at the RPGs that came out this year (the game type that is typically most story driven) you're not looking at very stiff competition.

[Terror_K]

Well, to be fair as well, the writing quality of the loyalty missions was pretty damn high. As were most of the recruitment ones. It was the main story involving The Collector's that was the weak link really, and they did fairly well even then with the material they had, but the material itself wasn't particularly good to be honest. So in a way I'd say the writing was mostly good, but the story wasn't... if that makes sense. The characters were pretty damn strong for the most part too.

The other issue regarding the writing was that for the second part of a trilogy, it was awfully removed from that of the first part. But that's not something that probably gets judged quite so harshly in these awards as the game likely gets looked at rather individually. The problem there is, because of the nature of Mass Effect, it really shouldn't be.

Modifié par Terror_K, 25 décembre 2010 - 10:12 .

[serjwolf]

sympathy4saren wrote...

Saving galactic civilization down to saving Earth.

Yes, an appeasement has been made to others.

THIS

[BiancoAngelo7]

Chris Priestly wrote...

I'd also suggest that people who complain about a "dumbed down" story, check out the recent awards ME2 has won like best RPG of the year, best story of the year, best character of the year, GAME of the year, etc.

Mr. Priestly, while people complaining that the story is "dumbed down" are exaggerating because they are venting their unsatisfaction with ME2's story approach where the focus was on recruiting a team, not killing the reapers, I hope you and your colleagues understand one important thing:

You may receive awards upon awards but that will only carry you so far in the qualitative appreciation of a game.

What I mean to say is that even though ME2 won several awards this does not mean that Bioware stayed true to its fans after ME1. This does not mean that Bioware improved upon and built upon what fans came to love in ME1. This does not mean that the level of immersion that was provided in ME1 was continued or even included in ME2. This does not mean that ME2 was the game that so many of us were hoping for and logically expecting to come after the masterpiece that was ME1.

What those awards do mean is that ME2 beat other games when being considered for whichever awards it won. This means that it was considered better than a lot of contenders that frankly, are pathetic excuses for a game. About half of the gaming sites and events that give awards choose games as nominations for several wrong reasons. Even if you don't agree with that, comparing ME2 to the majority of games being considered for awards is already a losing logical fallacy from the start.

This is why your statement and the lack of developer interaction in recent times worries me and other ME fans. Even though there are quite a large number of people complaining about very obvious shortcomings that the franchise has demonstrated, the only comments we ever see, if we see any at all, are the ones like yours.

No one is saying that ME2 didnt deserve those awards. A lot of people are saying that it was nowhere near the game it could have and should have been.

And this worries us greatly for ME3. Because it is the last chance (that we know of) to bring back the magic that made the ME universe what it was in ME1. And so far, there is nothing that leads us to believe that you and your colleagues have even taken this into consideration, much less addressed the issue.

[Fraevar]

sinosleep wrote...

Maybe if people could phrase their criticism in a manner that didn't include terms like "dumbed down" "ME isn't an RPG" and similar put downs then they might get better responses. If I was dev and was constantly being berated with nonsense like "ME 2 isn't an RPG" then I wouldn't think that saying "funny that, we've won several rpg of the year awards and no shooter of the year awards" would be off base.

You get responses appropriate to the actions you take to evoke them in the first place.

Bioware has been VERY open to criticism on the strategy forums and through Christina Norman's twitter with regards to GAMEPLAY issues or bugs with certain armors/weapons/skills. Then again, things seem to be far more civil in that secion of the forums.

As I said - some tend to go overboard. There have been some *very* civil and well-thought out posts about what some consider storyline and character weaknesses in ME2, however and those have all gone ignored by BioWare representatives. Many people were saying after ME1 that the story was good, but the characters needed more depth. In ME2, BioWare went with more characters, resulting in less depth and a core story that was almost non-existant and (said without vitriol or any rage in my voice) riddled with holes and inconsistencies.
 
I know many people like to blame EA for something like this, but I don't think this is the case, at least not in any creative way, but since BioWare is now a part of a publically traded company, their developers cannot say anything that might upset their stock price. If the writing team came out and just said: "We know the Collectors ended up being a complete dud and Shepard failed to develop as a character, we just had no more time/different priorities on this project." then that upsets the stock price as ME is a very big franchise in the eyes of the public.

But, there are degrees of communication in-between that and just saying nothing at all. The Dragon Age writing team has been much more open, even in the face of some very harsh critisism of their choices for Dragon Age II, and in spite of some devs defaulting to snark, others actually take the time to present their case and the rationale behind their choices. They have been up front about how Dragon Age II will not be the same game as Origins, and that they believe they can turn that into something good. The Mass Effect team continuously said, prior to the release of Mass Effect 2, that it would be the same game but with a few tweaks. It was not, it had a completely different tone and (in my opinion) felt more like a reboot than a continuation, it played differently, it was designed differently and a lot of the things that people expected from Part II just were not there, or were handled quite poorly (Liara/Ash/Kaidan).

Many people have been politely discussing those issues and basically been asking for the devs to just come out and answer the "why" to those issues, but it hasn't happened. I can only speculate as to the reasons of the development team, but complete silence on anything but gameplay and technical issues does not foster a positive attitude, when the developer in question keeps branding themselves as "story-based first".

[sinosleep]

Terror_K wrote...

Well, to be fair as well, the writing quality of the loyalty missions was pretty damn high. As were most of the recruitment ones. It was the main story involving The Collector's that was the weak link really, and they did fairly well even then with the material they had, but the material itself wasn't particularly good to be honest. So in a way I'd say the writing was mostly good, but the story wasn't... if that makes sense.

I actually agree with this. The central plot (Shepard must gather a group for a suicide mission to save the human colonies/stop the collectors) was pretty weak, while the individual character arcs were very well written.

[Burdokva]

To be honest, I completely understand how the OP feel. I too think that EA is trying to downplay Mass Effect a bit. Probably not completely throwing it away, because they still make money from it, but to a point where it is not essential to the story.



And I don't care. To me the original Mass Effect matters in its own right. Not only do I hope that BioWare won't chicken out and that at least a few of the choices will matter in the trilogy ending but, more importantly, because Mass Effect was a joy to play.



See it from a different angle - you can only play the original and you'll still end up with a complete, solid storyline and an amazing experience.