40 réponses à ce sujet

[goofyomnivore]

Gonna start another Vanguard tonight, I usually don't play with the bonus powers, I kind of liked the idea of "pure" classes, but I'm going to try and branch out from that purist point of view. I don't have much experience with them. I got a couple questions about the particular power Slam. I would love to hear thoughts on other bonus powers as well.

I'm 90% sure you can Warp Bomb with Slam, I just want to clarify. Also is there any benefit to maxing Slam, or would there not be much difference between one point and ten point Slam? I'm primarily going to use it for Warp Bombs. I just don't like Pull very much, the investment in Shockwave and it isn't instant cast. I also want to give my self a little more self sufficiency other than Charge, and I think Slam's short cooldown and instant cast ability would mesh very well with the Vanguard. I use a typical build: 4 Inferno Ammo, 4 Squad Cryo, 4 Heavy Charge, 4 Champion, -- 11 squad points left over. Basically the choice comes down to putting one point in Slam and getting Pull anyways for things such as Husks or maxing Slam.

I was just wondering, am I missing something obvious? This power seems pretty decent, especially for a Vanguard, but all I hear/read about is Reave.

[Ahglock]

You can warp bomb with it, but the timing is difficult. The more points you put into it generally the higher they go up so it becomes a bit easier to pull off a warp bomb.

[Kronner]

It is an awesome bonus power. 1 pt is good enough for Warp bombs, but I recommend maxing it out anyway (Heavy or Crippling, not much difference). Shockwave and Pull are just not needed when you have Slam.

[Ahglock]

I get pull for area pull and slam can not compete with that IMO.

[goofyomnivore]

Wow thanks for the quick responses, very much appreciated and happy holidays.

[Kronner]

Ahglock wrote...

I get pull for area pull and slam can not compete with that IMO.

Depends on what you want.

Slam = instant Warp bombs, Area Pull = better CC, I prefer the former by a longshot.

[Bender5252]

A fun thing to do is use pull and follow up with the slam. That gets people/enemies flying around pretty well and is always entertaining. I also go area pull, like the guy above, very low power recharge time, 3 seconds with it.

[sinosleep]

If you are going to use it for warp bombs keep in mind that you NEED to keep your squad BEHIND you.



In this vid early on you see me doing slam warp bombs all over the place with no problem, at around that 5:20 mark though Miranda gets in the way which forces the game to show her entire casting animation before warp will take effect. This causes her to take longer than the float portion of slam to get the power off and ruin the warp bomb.



So if you are planning on going the slam route (which I would recommend at low levels even if you eventually plan to get pull field since 1 point in slam from lvl 1 is FAR superior than having to wait till you free up enough points to waste in shockwave to unlock pull) make sure you place your squad behind you.

[Ahglock]

Kronner wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

I get pull for area pull and slam can not compete with that IMO.

Depends on what you want.

Slam = instant Warp bombs, Area Pull = better CC, I prefer the former by a longshot.

The travel time on pull is fast enough for me. But I can see your point.  Still I have enough delayed action issues from the warper that I find Slam a bit more difficult to bomb with than I care for. 

[Ahglock]

sinosleep wrote...

If you are going to use it for warp bombs keep in mind that you NEED to keep your squad BEHIND you.

In this vid early on you see me doing slam warp bombs all over the place with no problem, at around that 5:20 mark though Miranda gets in the way which forces the game to show her entire casting animation before warp will take effect. This causes her to take longer than the float portion of slam to get the power off and ruin the warp bomb.

So if you are planning on going the slam route (which I would recommend at low levels even if you eventually plan to get pull field since 1 point in slam from lvl 1 is FAR superior than having to wait till you free up enough points to waste in shockwave to unlock pull) make sure you place your squad behind you.

Yeah, my issue is with the vanguard they all to frequently seem to charge with me even when I put them into cover behind me, and I get slowed warps.  Or my charge will take me to a poit where I have flanked the enemy and now I am looking at Miranda.

[sinosleep]

Ahglock wrote...

Yeah, my issue is with the vanguard they all to frequently seem to charge with me even when I put them into cover behind me, and I get slowed warps.  Or my charge will take me to a poit where I have flanked the enemy and now I am looking at Miranda.

I've run into the same problem, there's a set distance where if you get far enough away from your squad they get teleported or run to your position. It happened on several of the tutorial vids in fact. The good thing is that I pretty much only use slam when I'm fighting from distance and NOT charging, so it's rarely an issue as far as warp bombs are concerned.

If I plan on using warp bombs post-charge I use the squad pull/squad warp method instead of the PC slam/squad warp version.

[Praetor Knight]

If you will level Slam to lvl 4, here is something else to consider. Crippling Slam has enemies stay eight seconds on the ground after the Slam.

It's a nice CC bonus, but when the enemy is behind cover, you will have to wait longer for the enemy to stand back up or you have to reposition.

So when choosing between Heavy and Crippling, keep that in mind for how you want to use Slam as you play.

[Bogsnot1]

Warp bombs with slam have to be timed more carefully, as you dont weant to detonate it while they are at the top of the lift.

Dominate is a good 1 pointer for Vanguards. Enemy squad comes rushing out, dominate one to divert their attention, charge & finish off the rest. On a side note, its insta-kills husks, and is a quick recharge. Abominations are also fun to dominate, as they often spawn next to something else. Quick dominate and BOOM.

[Kronner]

Also, Pull is better CC power only when you evolve it to Pull Field, otherwise it affects only one target, just like Slam, and both insta kill husks; but Slam is instant, Pull travels.
Getting Pull Field means giving up squad Cryo or Inferno Ammo, which is another advantage for Slam.

Timing of the Slam bombs is easy, I don't understand why some say otherwise. I have Slam mapped to key "3" and squad Warp to "4", pressing 3 and 4 in quick succession results in an instant Warp bomb.

Modifié par Kronner, 25 décembre 2010 - 01:16 .

[goofyomnivore]

Thanks everyone for the responses. I played to Horizon last night. I like it a lot more than Pull, simply because it is easier on points, I get it from the get-go, and I get to keep Squad Cryo/Inferno Ammo combo. It isn't hard at all to get the Warp Bomb off, but like others said it is tricky keeping an eye on your Warp party member. I loved being able to Overload with Garrus on Jack and Grunt's recruitment missions then following up with Slam and Warp to get the nice staggers/weaken everything else. It was also very useful on Horizon, with the Husks, and Collectors just love to bunch up, so I'm getting a lot of mileage out of it for very little investment.

I imagine later game I won't notice the differences between it and Pull, but for these first missions it has been golden, and also my own preference perfers the instant hit compared to the travel time and aim.

Thanks for the help and information everyone and Happy Holidays!

Modifié par strive, 25 décembre 2010 - 09:43 .

[AntiChri5]

Pull is great because, even at low levels, it is almost always a death sentence, even if you don't warp bomb them.

[aeetos21]

****, thanks for the link sino. I swear everytime I think I have VG figured out someone comes along and shows me another combo that works well on insanity. Last time it was just how effective area pull was when mixed with squad cryo/inferno/destroyer but i think this might be even better

[JaegerBane]

Kronner wrote...

Also, Pull is better CC power only when you evolve it to Pull Field, otherwise it affects only one target, just like Slam, and both insta kill husks; but Slam is instant, Pull travels.
Getting Pull Field means giving up squad Cryo or Inferno Ammo, which is another advantage for Slam.

That would depend on the value you attach to the ammos - the cryo effect in the game is one of the biggest disruptions to pulling off warp bombs (not to mention a bit buggy in of itself), so missing out on it may not be the bad an idea, depending on what you're focusing on.

You're also attaching a large amount of importance to the fact that the Slam is instant and Pull has travel time - it's swings and roundabouts, really. Having insta-hit powers is really useful when you're facing an opponents in the open at long range, but the travel time powers are often a bit more useful when you're fighting at shorter ranges and the enemies keep diving into cover, as you can arc them. There isn't one clearly better characteristic to have in all situations.

Timing of the Slam bombs is easy, I don't understand why some say otherwise. I have Slam mapped to key "3" and squad Warp to "4", pressing 3 and 4 in quick succession results in an instant Warp bomb.

It's self-evident - the window you have for setting off the bomb is much smaller, simple as that. Sino has pointed out the most common situation where that smaller window can screw things up. Ultimately it's just less tolerant of error and random events, so I can understand why people aren't as confident with it.

[Kronner]

JaegerBane wrote...

That would depend on the value you attach to the ammos - the cryo effect in the game is one of the biggest disruptions to pulling off warp bombs (not to mention a bit buggy in of itself), so missing out on it may not be the bad an idea, depending on what you're focusing on.

You're also attaching a large amount of importance to the fact that the Slam is instant and Pull has travel time - it's swings and roundabouts, really. Having insta-hit powers is really useful when you're facing an opponents in the open at long range, but the travel time powers are often a bit more useful when you're fighting at shorter ranges and the enemies keep diving into cover, as you can arc them. There isn't one clearly better characteristic to have in all situations.

Warp bombing frozen targets works just fine. (using Slam that is).

Vanguard has Charge, you don't need anything else for short range combat. Though Pull/Slam can easily be used in short range combat as well.

If you are aggressive, enemies will not have much of a chance to take cover and you will not have any issues with squad Cryo Ammo. I can see the point for a more passive/laid back Vanguard though.

Pull is pretty awesome, too bad 3 points must be wasted on Shockwave.

JaegerBane wrote...
It's self-evident - the window you have for setting off the bomb is much smaller, simple as that. Sino has pointed out the most common situation where that smaller window can screw things up. Ultimately it's just less tolerant of error and random events, so I can understand why people aren't as confident with it.

Well obviously setting up Slam bomb is very easy, and if someone can't do it - it is not Slam's fault and happens only if the player fooks up the squad positioning. Simple as that. The biggest advantage of Slam bomb is the precise placement, you do it instantly and exactly where you want. Pull does not offer such a bonus.

Modifié par Kronner, 27 décembre 2010 - 02:02 .

[Whitestrake]

If you feel like experimenting with bonus powers I'd recommend Neural Shock, or Reave.

I love Vanguard's, & on Insanity the health regen from Reave can extend your longevity, by quite a bit, & it can do massive damage to shields, barriers, armor, & health.

Getting caught in a crossfire after using Charge is hardly as bad if you can drop a big ball of rape on a crowd, & get healed by it.

Neural Shock's nice too, great for controlling the field, & maxed out it cools down fast enough that you can basically keep people down without even a chance of them getting back up.

Also, Heavy Neural Shock's great for dealing with Husks. It's generally a one hit, & once again it cools down quick enough you can wipe out an entire pack of them in seconds.



That was much longer than what I originally planned to say.

[JaegerBane]

Kronner wrote...

Warp bombing frozen targets works just fine. (using Slam that is).

It's known issue, Kronner.  It doesn't happen 100% of the time but the cryo effect appears to, on occasion, causes the warp bomb to fail. My point was that there are fairly straightforward reasons why anyone would actually avoid cryo effects, so losing access to the ammo isn't necessarily a problem - it would depend on how often the player wishes to use the warp bomb mechanic (or whether they're willing to put up with dud bombs).

Vanguard has Charge, you don't need anything else for short range combat.

The point I was making was related to use of Warp Bombs. Charge doesn't help with warp bombs.

If you are aggressive, enemies will not have much of a chance to take cover and you will not have any issues with squad Cryo Ammo. I can see the point for a more passive/laid back Vanguard though.

As I said, I was primarily referring to the cryo mechanic's effect on warp bombing - not that a Vanguard requires Pull to deal with opponents behind cover or Cryo's effect on cover. My point was purely to point out that insta-hit powers are useful in several scenarios but are not flatly superior.

Pull is pretty awesome, too bad 3 points must be wasted on Shockwave.

Yeah. I think this is the biggest problem the Vanguard's Pull suffers - on any difficulty above Veteran those 3 points are effectively wasted. 'Course, the Vanguard only really needs his shotgun and charge, so it could be argued that it's minor

Well obviously setting up Slam bomb is very easy, and if someone can't do it - it is not Slam's fault and happens only if the player fooks up the squad positioning. Simple as that. The biggest advantage of Slam bomb is the precise placement, you do it instantly and exactly where you want. Pull does not offer such a bonus.

The fact remains that Slam requires everything to be done with far less margin for error - simply blaming the player for not being 'l33t enough' is missing the point (particularly when the player can 'fook up' squad positioning simply by being unlucky, as in the situation where Sino and others have pointed out). It's not really a question of how easy it is to pull off a bomb, it's more that its more likely things will go wrong using Slam rather than Pull for bombs.

I definitely agree the precise and instance placement is the biggest thing Slam has in it's favour, I certainly wasn't advocating that it was without advantages. All I'm pointing out was that it has it's disadvantages too - which is best for the player will depend on them.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 27 décembre 2010 - 02:41 .

[Kronner]

JaegerBane wrote...

It's known issue, Kronner.  It doesn't happen 100% of the time but the cryo effect appears to, on occasion, causes the warp bomb to fail. My point was that there are fairly straightforward reasons why anyone would actually avoid cryo effects, so losing access to the ammo isn't necessarily a problem - it would depend on how often the player wishes to use the warp bomb mechanic (or whether they're willing to put up with dud bombs).

The point I was making was related to use of Warp Bombs. Charge doesn't help with warp bombs.

As I said, I was primarily referring to the cryo mechanic's effect on warp bombing - not that a Vanguard requires Pull to deal with opponents behind cover or Cryo's effect on cover. My point was purely to point out that insta-hit powers are useful in several scenarios but are not flatly superior.

Well, Cryo Ammo has no chance to screw up the Slam bomb, because the bomb is instant. It can, however, screw up a Pull bomb (as well as your squad killing the target before you make it go boom).

JaegerBane wrote...
Yeah. I think this is the biggest problem the Vanguard's Pull suffers - on any difficulty above Veteran those 3 points are effectively wasted. 'Course, the Vanguard only really needs his shotgun and charge, so it could be argued that it's minor

That is true. TBH main reason why I don't put points into Shockwave to unlock Pull (I could have Slam 6, Shockwave 3, Pull 1) is because in that case the points distribution layout looks like crap (IMHO) on the Squad screen

JaegerBane wrote...
The fact remains that Slam requires everything to be done with far less margin for error - simply blaming the player for not being 'l33t enough' is missing the point (particularly when the player can 'fook up' squad positioning simply by being unlucky, as in the situation where Sino and others have pointed out). It's not really a question of how easy it is to pull off a bomb, it's more that its more likely things will go wrong using Slam rather than Pull for bombs.

I definitely agree the precise and instance placement is the biggest thing Slam has in it's favour, I certainly wasn't advocating that it was without advantages. All I'm pointing out was that it has it's disadvantages too - which is best for the player will depend on them.

I don't think pressing 3 buttons in 2-3s requires any skill..but whatever.

In that video sinosleep clearly forgot to position Miranda properly so she moved towards him - his fault and it happens. Pull certainly offers advantage when you want to arc the power to CC the enemy (or enemies if you have Pull Field; Pull Field is also superior CC power, especially against multiple stripped Husks/enemies), but for Warp bombs I'd say that instacast powers such as Slam (to set up) or Reave (to strip barrier/armor) are better on a Vanguard. Although I would not say Slam is universally superior to Pull, in the end it comes down to player's style.

Modifié par Kronner, 27 décembre 2010 - 02:57 .

[lazuli]

Cryo effects can cause Biotics to fail, typically when the freeze is still starting to take effect and the target is not yet rigidly immobile.

[Ahglock]

Kronner wrote...


I don't think pressing 3 buttons in 2-3s requires any skill..but whatever.

In that video sinosleep clearly forgot to position Miranda properly so she moved towards him - his fault and it happens. Pull certainly offers advantage when you want to arc the power to CC the enemy (or enemies if you have Pull Field; Pull Field is also superior CC power, especially against multiple stripped Husks/enemies), but for Warp bombs I'd say that instacast powers such as Slam (to set up) or Reave (to strip barrier/armor) are better on a Vanguard. Although I would not say Slam is universally superior to Pull, in the end it comes down to player's style.

The issue isn't the positioning, but that a ridiculous number of times the AI decides to unposition squad mates.  You are too far, the AI freaks out and decides to run in circles for no reason, the AI decides the guy you told to stay in cover should really charge the enemies position etc.  Add even if positioned right, you are charging all over the place and may position your self wrong, especially on a oh crap I'm about to die, charge now situation.  

As for the squad cryo thing, I find cryo works worse with slam because the target falls over and is frequently harder to target with direct fire biotics.  Which is another reaosn I skip cryo a lot, the targets drop and fall behind cover. 

[Kronner]

Ahglock wrote...

The issue isn't the positioning, but that a ridiculous number of times the AI decides to unposition squad mates.  You are too far, the AI freaks out and decides to run in circles for no reason, the AI decides the guy you told to stay in cover should really charge the enemies position etc.  Add even if positioned right, you are charging all over the place and may position your self wrong, especially on a oh crap I'm about to die, charge now situation.  

As for the squad cryo thing, I find cryo works worse with slam because the target falls over and is frequently harder to target with direct fire biotics.  Which is another reaosn I skip cryo a lot, the targets drop and fall behind cover. 

I really don't know if we are talking about the same thing.

If you are Charging, you can't Warp bomb using Slam/Pull to set it up, because you are on a cooldown and most likely in the middle of an enemy group.

If you are not Charging, there is no problem with positioning squad, in most cases you don't even have to position them - they walk behind you all the time until you take cover (then they take cover near you as well)
/Charge (they teleport to your location if you are too far). Squadmate's position is irrelevant, as long as you keep them out of sight, which proved to be very easy to do for me.

If enemy falls behind cover because he is frozen then
a) you are not aggressive enough - they have enough time to take cover
it is a long range encounter - Charge is not available, and you did not Warp bomb when the enemy was stripped of his/her defenses (Slam bomb is instant, hence no one can be frozen if you actually do the bomb)

If you kill fast enough, the effects of Cryo Ammo are rarely felt. I like it because it improves squadmates' survavibility from what I have seen and it gives me more ammo options.

I honestly have had very little issues doing Slam bombs. The only time it failed me was when the Slam bugged out - it did not lift the enemy - but it should have; unfortunately this affects Pull, Throw and Neural Shock as well (and probably more powers). Other than that I can't recall not doing an instant Slam bomb.

Modifié par Kronner, 27 décembre 2010 - 07:01 .