93 réponses à ce sujet

[zx2781]

In my love of RPG's (BioWare, Bethesda, etc) I thought I had better give Japanese RPGs a try. I bought FF 13, Magna Carta 2, Star Ocean/The Last Hope, Eternal Sonata and Lost Odyssey. For the most part they have some beautiful cut scenes but are not very engaging unless you want to watch a movie and press the A button to proceed to the next scene. Five reasons I won't buy another.
1. Cheesy and often embarrassing characters.
2. Linear story. No option of dialogue and action that would change story outcome.
3. Inferior graphics...FF 13 and Eternal Sonata excluded.
4. Fixed camera on most of what I played.
5. No character customization. Or very minimal.
I have tried to like these but must be missing the point. I know they are story driven but that does not make them an RPG. Any positives I am missing with these games?

[Celeryroot]

The reason why you don't like them is because they're made for little kids. I know because I used to play JRPGs myself but then I grew up and moved on to WRPGs.

The vague, ostentatious plot of most JRPG's usually seem fascinating to kids but to adults they just come across as pretentious and as adults we're much less forgiving of cheesy art design and corny dialogue.

[zx2781]

That explains it!

[Argorre]

Lost Odyssey... little kids? LOL ... but for the most part yeah, most JRPG's are not made for adults

[Alexine]

zx2781 wrote...
Five reasons I won't buy another.

1. Cheesy and often embarrassing characters.
2. Linear story. No option of dialogue and action that would change story outcome.
3. Inferior graphics...FF 13 and Eternal Sonata excluded.
4. Fixed camera on most of what I played.
5. No character customization. Or very minimal.

I have tried to like these but must be missing the point. I know they are story driven but that does not make them an RPG. Any positives I am missing with these games?

1. Cheesiness and embarrassing character's purpose in a lot of Japanese culture is often to inject humour or to dramatise something. Japanese are very fond of exaggeration, especially during modern times.

2. Although they are often very linear storyline, they have often fleshed out storyline. While games that emphasise dialogue and action, there is a lacking of story content (ahem, Mass Effect 2 and to the lesser extent Dragon Age: Origins). JRPGs sacrifice this for a better story plot and flow. There are exceptions, but you can't jam pack everything in within restrictions and limits.

3. Personally, graphics are not an issues in gaming. But I think this current generation of JRPGs have pretty decent graphics. Lost Odsessy and Resonance of Fate are other JRPGs that have pretty nice graphics. So I don't know where you're getting your opinion of this.

4. Again, I think you are lumping in a general stereotype. Usually games that have poor or unacceptable camera control usually aren't good games, but I don't think it applies to all JRPGs.

5. Character customisation is only a recent addition to RPGs in general (KOTOR, JE all used character presets), not to mention rather costly and time consumping to implement in a game (unless it is only minor changes or graphics in the game in general are simplistic or pixels).

I think you need to understand that JRPGs are catered for an entirely different market and are developed differently to WRPGs. But if you lump them into one stereotype, I think you are missing out on a lot of JRPGs (sort of like if you lump all WRPGs together). True that a lot of the good JRPGs are most from 10 years ago and longer, but there are a few good gems in this current generation. Persona 3, Lost Odsessy and Resonance of Fate are my favourites.

But its a matter of personal preference and understanding cultural pretense and understanding between these games. Mainstream JRPGs are catered to the high Japanese consumption. However, quite a good handful of them that are not heavily promoted are pretty good. Often, the JRPGs that are not hyped about are often the true hidden gems of JRPGs (and Japanese games in general).

[GodWood]

+ 1 to everything Alexine said.

[Jonp382]

Alexine wrote...

Character customisation is only a recent addition to RPGs in general (KOTOR, JE all used character presets), not to mention rather costly and time consumping to implement in a game (unless it is only minor changes or graphics in the game in general are simplistic or pixels).

All in-game customization options are pre-sets. And Baldur's Gate had a very numerous assortment of options for your character. Don't know about before then, as I haven't played older RPGs. That are correctly labelled as such, anyways.

[DarkSpiral]

zx2781 wrote...


In my love of RPG's (BioWare, Bethesda, etc) I thought I had better give Japanese RPGs a try. I bought FF 13, Magna Carta 2, Star Ocean/The Last Hope, Eternal Sonata and Lost Odyssey. For the most part they have some beautiful cut scenes but are not very engaging unless you want to watch a movie and press the A button to proceed to the next scene. Five reasons I won't buy another.
1. Cheesy and often embarrassing characters.
2. Linear story. No option of dialogue and action that would change story outcome.
3. Inferior graphics...FF 13 and Eternal Sonata excluded.
4. Fixed camera on most of what I played.
5. No character customization. Or very minimal.
I have tried to like these but must be missing the point. I know they are story driven but that does not make them an RPG. Any positives I am missing with these games?

You bought all of those at once?

Looking at that list, I have to tell you you managed to dip your toe into the JRPG waters at a very bad time.  The genre has grown remarkable stale.  Star Ocean - The Last Hope abd Eternal Sonata in particular bored em to tears, so I feel your pain.

[Archdemon Cthulhu]

Alexine wrote...

2. Although they are often very linear storyline, they have often fleshed out storyline. While games that emphasise dialogue and action, there is a lacking of story content (ahem, Mass Effect 2 and to the lesser extent Dragon Age: Origins). JRPGs sacrifice this for a better story plot and flow. There are exceptions, but you can't jam pack everything in within restrictions and limits.

I agree with everything you said except this absurdity.  While Mass Effect 2's overarching plot was damn simple (Find Bad Guy, Kill Bad Guy)  It's subplots and characters were exceedingly well written and in truth were the real "meat" of the story.  Also, Mass Effect 1, KoToR 1+2, Jade Empire, Baldur's Gate 1+2, These games all had excellent stories with dialogue choices.  And Many JRPG's (today mostly, to be fair) have awful stories, linear or not.  Final Fantasy 13 and Star Ocean: last Hope were utter nonsense.  Then again, you have gems like Persona 3 and and Lost Oddyssey (which I dislike for other reasons, but the story is solid), but truth is you simply don't get better stories from linearity.  The two don't even correlate properly.

Now, if all you mean by "fleshed out" is that JRPG's are generally longer than WRPG's, then yeah, that's true.  But as many people say,I 'd rather play an excellent 20 hour game than a mediocre 60 hour one.  Or I could just play DA;O which is both excellent and 50 hours long.  

[zx2781]

Thanks Alexine. I will approach with a different mind. The one I did like was Lost Odyssey but the restricted camera view bothers me. The turn based combat is fun once you get the hang of it.

Alexine wrote...

zx2781 wrote...
Five reasons I won't buy another.

1. Cheesy and often embarrassing characters.
2. Linear story. No option of dialogue and action that would change story outcome.
3. Inferior graphics...FF 13 and Eternal Sonata excluded.
4. Fixed camera on most of what I played.
5. No character customization. Or very minimal.

I have tried to like these but must be missing the point. I know they are story driven but that does not make them an RPG. Any positives I am missing with these games?

1. Cheesiness and embarrassing character's purpose in a lot of Japanese culture is often to inject humour or to dramatise something. Japanese are very fond of exaggeration, especially during modern times.

2. Although they are often very linear storyline, they have often fleshed out storyline. While games that emphasise dialogue and action, there is a lacking of story content (ahem, Mass Effect 2 and to the lesser extent Dragon Age: Origins). JRPGs sacrifice this for a better story plot and flow. There are exceptions, but you can't jam pack everything in within restrictions and limits.

3. Personally, graphics are not an issues in gaming. But I think this current generation of JRPGs have pretty decent graphics. Lost Odsessy and Resonance of Fate are other JRPGs that have pretty nice graphics. So I don't know where you're getting your opinion of this.

4. Again, I think you are lumping in a general stereotype. Usually games that have poor or unacceptable camera control usually aren't good games, but I don't think it applies to all JRPGs.

5. Character customisation is only a recent addition to RPGs in general (KOTOR, JE all used character presets), not to mention rather costly and time consumping to implement in a game (unless it is only minor changes or graphics in the game in general are simplistic or pixels).

I think you need to understand that JRPGs are catered for an entirely different market and are developed differently to WRPGs. But if you lump them into one stereotype, I think you are missing out on a lot of JRPGs (sort of like if you lump all WRPGs together). True that a lot of the good JRPGs are most from 10 years ago and longer, but there are a few good gems in this current generation. Persona 3, Lost Odsessy and Resonance of Fate are my favourites.

But its a matter of personal preference and understanding cultural pretense and understanding between these games. Mainstream JRPGs are catered to the high Japanese consumption. However, quite a good handful of them that are not heavily promoted are pretty good. Often, the JRPGs that are not hyped about are often the true hidden gems of JRPGs (and Japanese games in general).

[Mecha Tengu]

Celeryroot wrote...

The reason why you don't like them is because they're made for little kids. I know because I used to play JRPGs myself but then I grew up and moved on to WRPGs.
The vague, ostentatious plot of most JRPG's usually seem fascinating to kids but to adults they just come across as pretentious and as adults we're much less forgiving of cheesy art design and corny dialogue.

oh tough boy, and what RPGs are meant for adults? Is DAO a hardcore RPG?

in Japan, there is no real distrinction of what is meant for adults and what is meant for kids. Kids are exposed to nudity as early as 10, while here children are overcensored and will cringe at the sight of blood.

Japanese RPGs always had their strenghts in story, character design. Though you dont really make any desicions. Japanese RPGs are more lighthearted and comical. Other Japanese genres can be more serious (resident evil series)

You may not like the plots, but hey at least the Japanese don't over use the same boring tolkien cliches, HUR HUR HUR elves, dwarves, mages, Orcs darkspawn

Modifié par Mecha Tengu, 25 décembre 2010 - 05:49 .

[Celeryroot]

I don't think JRPG's are lighthearted and comical really. I think most of them take themselves way too seriously which just makes them feel pompous and overly-melodramatic considering how damn silly they are usually involving an androgynous adolescent fighting off robots with a giant sword or whatever.
I think despite the presence of Elves, and Dwarves in Dragon Age it still feels pretty original since they're presented in a way I have not seen in other Tolkien-Esque fantasy RPG's(Elves are second class citizens while Dwarves are actually friendly towards Elves), plus the lore surrounding those races in Dragon Age is all quite original.
Dragon Age is more of an adult's RPG because the characters actually look and act like adults rather than androgynous adolescent boys or jailbait girls with daddy issues as is stereotypical in almost all JRPGs.  Just look at Vanille and Hope from Final Fantasy XIII, I'm really supposed to believe THOSE are the heroes of the planet?  HAHAHA!
I think the best JRPG's are the ones that don't take themselves too seriously and have a lot of humor in them like Chrono Trigger. I can have fun with a silly plot but don't tell me that I should find serious emotional attachment to a game that has characters who kill giant robots with their bare hands or with blitzballs or whatever.

Modifié par Celeryroot, 25 décembre 2010 - 06:15 .

[Jonp382]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

Japanese RPGs always had their strenghts in story, character design.

None of my favorite video game stories or characters are from Japanese studios, personally.

You may not like the plots, but hey at least the Japanese don't over use the same boring tolkien cliches,

They still recycle as much as a coprophagous dog. Most game development nowadays is as stagnant as ever, Japanese included.

[Ghost Lightning]

JRPG ≥ WRPG

[SFF19]

I like both.  Dragon Quest 9, Tales of Vesperia, Persona 3 PSP, Oblivion, and Mass Effect 2 are some of my favorite games ever.

[slimgrin]

I love other types of Japanese games, like fighting, platformers, shooters, etc. but I'm pretty much a dyed in the wool WRPG fan.

[Celeryroot]

I think Japanese games in general have a very over the top style and I think that works better with other genres than it does with RPGs.  It works well with action games that have a lot of explosions as well as beat em up games.
I think after Bayonetta and Vanquish Platinum games is starting to become one of my favorite game companies. Vanquish especially was amazing!

Modifié par Celeryroot, 25 décembre 2010 - 06:55 .

[Thiefy]

you are playing the wrong jrpgs. if you want GOOD jrpgs you have to play the "old" ones from late 90's early '00s, but keep in mind a lot of the "newest" factor and revolutionary ideas that added to the "wow" are stapled, if not outright cliches right now. still, i think the story telling back then was better compared to current jrpgs and they were more willing to take chances instead of going for uber stylish outfits and monsters based on current jpop trends and then you have to figure the way they perceive and handle drama is a lot different from the way we perceive and handle drama in the west.

as someone who used to be a big fan of jrpgs, there has honestly been nothing in the past few years that i've thought good enough to spend money on.

Modifié par Thief-of-Hearts, 25 décembre 2010 - 07:40 .

[Andarthiel_Demigod]

Celeryroot wrote...

I think Japanese games in general have a very over the top style and I think that works better with other genres than it does with RPGs.  It works well with action games that have a lot of explosions as well as beat em up games.
I think after Bayonetta and Vanquish Platinum games is starting to become one of my favorite game companies. Vanquish especially was amazing!

I think I have to agree with you there. JRPGs just don't do it for me for a number of reasons that zx mentioned in his opening post(including the character dialogue and design, it's just plain terrible). But Japanese humour and style can work quite well in other genres(eg. Metal Gear Solid)

Modifié par Andarthiel_Demigod, 26 décembre 2010 - 11:43 .

[Dust_King]

To be honest I don't think there have been to many good JRPGs made recently, that said I would recommend having a look at some of the older ones, particularly since it's not that hard to find them online (Using slightly not legal methods of playing them;))

I'd recommend trying Final Fantasy VI (6) and FF tactics for the gameboy advanced or if you can get a copy Final Fantasy VII on PS1 (or playstation network) 

Speaking as a fan of JRPGs I would say that nothing on your list is actually a game I'd recommend, If you want to try good JRPGs then you'll probably have to go vintage. 

[Ulous]

I don't think JRPG's are bad per-se, it is just that they are bad "now", they had their golden age and have not moved with the times, luckily western RPG's did move with the times, hence why we see little to no Baldurs Gate clones with D&D rulesets anymore, instead we Have DA2, Mass Effect, Fallout 3 and Elder Scrolls etc.

[Fishy]

Did you hear that?It's was a big and long sight ..

Next!

[GodWood]

Dust_King wrote...
Speaking as a fan of JRPGs I would say that nothing on your list is actually a game I'd recommend, If you want to try good JRPGs then you'll probably have to go vintage. 

Nonsense!
Lost Odyssey is a brilliant game.

Ulous wrote...
I don't think JRPG's are bad per-se, it is just that they are bad "now", they had their golden age and have not moved with the times, luckily western RPG's did move with the times, hence why we see little to no Baldurs Gate clones with D&D rulesets anymore, instead we Have DA2, Mass Effect, Fallout 3 and Elder Scrolls etc.

Every game you listed is of the RPG-lite/'action RPG' variety. (cept maybe DA2)
I'd pick turn based combat over those games combat any day.

Modifié par GodWood, 26 décembre 2010 - 05:10 .

[Rockworm503]

Yeah JRPGs are a different creature from what I enjoy.

No matter how much my friend tells me how GREAT the FF series is I just can't enjoy them.

For the most part its the turn based combat that turns me off. I got ALL the way to the end boss in FF 7 and just turned it off out of boredom. Didn't matter how great the story might be if the gameplay bores me to tears.

He lent me FF 13 and said to give it a big try says that the combat is very different and don't stop until you get through the tutorial at least which he said was a couple hours long or something. O-o that turned me off from it right there lol.