102 réponses à ce sujet

[Uber Rod]

I'm thinking that the Collectors were more concerned with creating new Reapers than with fighting. They were, in my opinion, always Plan B.

Modifié par Uber Rod, 25 décembre 2010 - 04:21 .

[Uber Rod]

abnocte wrote...

adam_grif wrote...

A better question is why Sovereign bothered with the entire plot of the ME series, because nobody would have ever realized he was even hostile if he never attacked Eden Prime. There are a million subtle ways he could have achieved his goals, and most of them didn't require waiting hundreds of years.

I mean, for all anybody else knew, he was just an in-tact Prothean battleship.

Uh?

Well, he needed Saren to use the beacon to find out why the keepers didn't respond to his call. And since the Council already knew about it, and they sent Nhilus and not Saren, any stealthy approach was doomed from the very begining.

May be Sovereign should have chosen someone else, but Saren makes sense since his Spectre status gave him access to information that would ease the search of the Prothean beacons.

I would say that as a Spectre, Saren could have just shown up in Sovereign, claiming to have found a new ship, then let Sovereign dock and manually open the Portal for the other Reapers. 

He really didn't need to go to investigate the beacon, or try to find a back door, or attack Eden, or get an army of geth. He was a Spectre. He could have just flown Sovereign to the Citadel easy peasy. 

He could have even secretly gotten a geth army, had them attack after showing up with Sovereign, defeated them, thus further legitimizing the presence of Sovereign. It would have made him a hero and allowed him all the access he needed to manually open the portal.

Edit: with Sovereign docked with the Citadel pumping out indoctrination, it wouldn't take long for all resistance in the Citadel to crumble to dust, making it even easier to open the portal for the other Reapers.

All the other actions he took just led to failure and possibly leaking the existence of the Reapers.

But then you really wouldn't have much of a game, would you?

Modifié par Uber Rod, 25 décembre 2010 - 04:21 .

[Winterfly]

If Saren would have done that, there would be no game.



Why are you people even whining on the story? Also, the Council might seem stupid but they arent idiots who just let somebody dock the largest damn ship ever seen in the citadel without researching it.

[Knoll Argonar]

Saren HAD to use the beacon and then DESTROY it.

What would happen if the Council used the Beacon, understood its message and knew there was a threat called "reapers" that would destroy them? The cool thing about the Reapers is that noone knows about them until they're going to kill you.

So Sov had to get to the beacon before important people could use it. Guess what, Shepard used it, and in the end that stopped Sov and got him killed.

Modifié par Knoll Argonar, 25 décembre 2010 - 04:28 .

[Uber Rod]

Winterfly wrote...

If Saren would have done that, there would be no game.

Why are you people even whining on the story? Also, the Council might seem stupid but they arent idiots who just let somebody dock the largest damn ship ever seen in the citadel without researching it.

Yeah, that's why Saren would have to arrive claiming he found a "Prothean ship" and then have the geth attack. He defeats the geth and everything is cool. He docks Sovereign, Indoctrination starts and it's game over.

[Winterfly]

Knoll sounds about right. Saren needed to get the beacon.



And Uber Rod, no offense but that sounds so stupid if they would fall for it. The reaper looks nothing at all like anything else they found that been supposely Prothean. I for one would not let a agent enter my base with the worlds biggest hangar ship ever seen, able to carry 10.000 unmanned jet fighters for example, strait into your capital, strait into the heart.



A cia agent would not drag in a floating saucer into Obamas office.



I understand your idea and plot there but it would be pretty weird.

[Sidac]

well op, if you listened to the story and talked to the people in the game you would get the reasons wht the events in 2 didnt happen in 1. Its a pretty linear story. If plan A fails you fall back on plan B. If B fails you fall back on C. You dont just go SCREW THIS PLAN C. The story, if you listen to it, a 4th grader could understand it and the events of why soverign did what it did.

[Aurica]

Personally I think that the Collectors have been around for sometime.  Maybe even before the events in ME1. 

I'm guessing at that point of time they kept a rather low profile. It was stated that they purchased only samples with genetic mutation and normally in small quantities.  And they are rather mysterious race. 

Either their actions didn't raise any red flags or that no one knew how to pursue them to uncover the truth.  Sides the area they operate isn't exactly council space.  It might be after the events of ME1 then did the Collectors started to pay special attention to humans.

[Sidac]

Aurica wrote...

Personally I think that the Collectors have been around for sometime.  Maybe even before the events in ME1.  

I'm guessing at that point of time they kept a rather low profile. It was stated that they purchased only samples with genetic mutation and normally in small quantities.  And they are rather mysterious race. 

Either their actions didn't raise any red flags or that no one knew how to pursue them to uncover the truth.  Sides the area they operate isn't exactly council space.  It might be after the events of ME1 then did the Collectors started to pay special attention to humans.

Tim told you what you think

Talk to TIM after Freedom's Progress:

He states collectors have been around for a very long time. He states that they keep a low profile. All they did is get a rare specimen and go back through Omgega 4 relay. Hence no red flags.

Modifié par Sidac, 25 décembre 2010 - 05:07 .

[Aurica]

Encarmine wrote...

haha i just thought about this, Sovreign should of just acted all cuddly and freindly, and Saren should of been like

'hello Councle, ive founds a freindly Prothean Ship, they wants to dock and say hello, you can trust me im your best spectre, if you dont belive me, Matriach Benizia also can confirm this amazing thing!!'

'hmm ok, lets meet the Prothean Ambassidor, hooray Protheans have returned' - Councle

Sovreign Docks with the Citadel

'I LIED LOL'

Reapers zzap into Citadel. Universe over

That actually made sense LOL.  Saren for all that he is worth is one of the most respected spectre.  Just a few words here and there and he should well... technically be able to persuade the Council to allow Sovereign to dock with the Citadel.

Sovereign in all his eternity of being a supreme being should have thought of this instead of going on a wild goose chase for the conduit.

Modifié par Aurica, 25 décembre 2010 - 05:08 .

[DarthCaine]

Collectors were a secondary option if Sovereign failed. And besides, there's too few collectors

[SandTrout]

I find it unlikely that the Council would unconditionally trust a giant AI construct, even if it did claim to be Protean, and just let it waltz right in. It's far more likely that they would set it in some shipyard where it wouldn't be able to as much harm and start trying to reverse-engineer it.

If I were in the Council's position, I'd be paranoid as hell regarding Sovereign. Why wait till now? Why is it left with no living Protheans when it clearly has enough space and power supply to sustain a population? What's with the mind-control field?

Not to mention that study of the Reaper could result in the Council Races developing weapons what could easily destroy a Reaper, or reveal the nature of the Relay IFFs, or other technology we don't even know about yet.

Strategically, it made sense, at the time, to mass a huge Geth fleet and just storm the Citadel by force. It's not a reasonable consideration to think that small team lead by a human would be able to follow so closely on Saren's heels, wipe out hundreds of Geth, download an ancient Citadel override file from a Prothean VI, and actually manage to let the human fleet in in time to take out Sovereign.

[Vaenier]

Why didnt Saren just toss a nade at the Prothean beacon when he was done? Why didnt he take it with him? Why didnt they use the Geth to help the Collectors first so they attacked with 2 Reapers? Why didnt they try to ware down the Citadel fleet with hit and run attacks first before trying to take it over? Why didnt Saren blow up the conduit? Why didnt Sovreign talk with Shep at all? Why didnt they just nuke the Thorian? Why didnt they just nuke the Rachni? Why didnt they just nuke Ilos?

Because you would automatically lose, and they couldnt figure out how to write the plot properly to account for intelligent actions.

[Winterfly]

You guys ask to much. Take any movie that has a better plot. Seriously, all things got flaws when it comes to "Inhumane" things. Sauron is pretty stupid, so is the emperor in Star Wars and so on.

[Mecha Tengu]

super_gamer wrote...

Why didnt Sovereign use the Collectors in Mass Effect 1. Why go thought all the trouble of getting new a new army of slaves when the Reapers already had one?

do you want just one mass effect game or do you want bioware to make 3 games for us to enjoy?

[Kasces]

Collectors were never a fighting force. There were 2 options:



1) Use the ENORMOUS Geth fleet and allow the Collectors to keep being sneaky



2) Mindlessly throw the Collectors in the army so they can die in 5 minutes.



It would be a waste of resources. Plus, we're not accounting for how individualistic the Reapers are. Harbinger seems to be in charge of the Collectors operation and who's to say he would LET Sovereign use those forces?

[sympathy4saren]

This is a great question. There were some really good answers, too.

[Kasces]

Vaenier wrote...

Why didnt Saren just toss a nade at the Prothean beacon when he was done? Why didnt he take it with him? Why didnt they use the Geth to help the Collectors first so they attacked with 2 Reapers? Why didnt they try to ware down the Citadel fleet with hit and run attacks first before trying to take it over? Why didnt Saren blow up the conduit? Why didnt Sovreign talk with Shep at all? Why didnt they just nuke the Thorian? Why didnt they just nuke the Rachni? Why didnt they just nuke Ilos?
Because you would automatically lose, and they couldnt figure out how to write the plot properly to account for intelligent actions.

He probably assumed it automatically destoyed itself, since that's EXACTLY what it did when Shepard used it. (only it literally exploded instead of just erasing all info)

The reasons stated above. Besides what else is there to learn from it? Let some fool's brain get melted  instead.

There are various problems with this plan. The Collectors not being an army, a waste of resources, as far as we know the Collectors only started building a human Reaper after Sovereign failed so they weren't even reaping anything at the time (to make a Reaper atleast, which must take a long time). All this and Sovereign was getting agitated since he already failed twice.

Why would a 2km warship attempt such dragged out guerilla warfare when it can just suprise attack with it's MILLIONS of minions. Attacks weren't even phasing Sovereign himself. A suprise is more effective, which it was, and considering it would have worked if it were not for Shepard.
-if that doesn't satisfy you, consider the fact the indestructible Citadel was having its arm closed as soon as fighting near it starts.

He had no time to blow up the Conduit? Judging from ME1, the only way to test the Conduit is to use it, and Saren, Sovereign or some Geth suddenly popping up in the middle of the Citadel isn't the brightest way to go about it. They had one chance to use it and the Geth left behind wouldn't destroy it as it is a piece of technology the Reapers can learn from.

Ahh, Sovvie did talk to Shep. If you're asking why bother talking at all, it is because Sovvie views organics as inferior and bound to fail (ironically). He was cocky but besides that, it's not like he revealed anything important to the plan. Shep was always on Saren's tail and Saren spills the beans anyway. And villains always monologue lol.

 As far as the wonderful plan of nuking:
1) Nukes are utterly obsolete if you say nuke as in "why didn't they just blow crap up with the most powerful thing they got??"
2) Damage to enviroment
3) Shep can't just nuke whatever he wants. He has to get authroization, and I doubt the Council would give him that for stuff he could and DID do on the low (except Virmire, where Nuking would defeat the purpose of STOPPING a bomb)

AKA, almost all of your questions can be answered with a "because that doesn't make sense."

[Kasces]

Double post.

Modifié par Kasces, 25 décembre 2010 - 06:43 .

[Vaenier]

Kasces wrote...

There are various problems with this plan. The Collectors not being an army, a waste of resources, as far as we know the Collectors only started building a human Reaper after Sovereign failed so they weren't even reaping anything at the time (to make a Reaper atleast, which must take a long time). All this and Sovereign was getting agitated since he already failed twice.

Why would a 2km warship attempt such dragged out guerilla warfare when it can just suprise attack with it's MILLIONS of minions. Attacks weren't even phasing Sovereign himself. A suprise is more effective, which it was, and considering it would have worked if it were not for Shepard.

They had one chance to use it and the Geth left behind wouldn't destroy it as it is a piece of technology the Reapers can learn from.

 As far as the wonderful plan of nuking:
1) Nukes are utterly obsolete if you say nuke as in "why didn't they just blow crap up with the most powerful thing they got??"
2) Damage to enviroment
3) Shep can't just nuke whatever he wants. He has to get authroization, and I doubt the Council would give him that for stuff he could and DID do on the low (except Virmire, where Nuking would defeat the purpose of STOPPING a bomb)

The collectors not being an army is exactly why they should have used the Geth to help. The reasoning in ME2 makes it clear they were going to build it anyway, why not start now. If its worth doing, its worth over doing.

He just barely almost made it, before shep stepped in and screwed up his incredibly risky blitz. Again, if its worth doing, its worth overdoing.

Reapers learn how a mass relay works? ok...

.... wow... umm, I am talking about Saren/Sovreign.... instead of just getting it over with, the Geth try pitiful foot assaults with a handful of units at a time to kill a plant they knew exactly where it was. they care nothing about enviroment. they care nothing about authorization. nukes are never obsolete. [they are actually still more powerful than mass effect ****.] Shep comes along, kills the pitiful ground assault, and gains the knowledge of the Thorian, making him one step closer to Saren.

Rahni, again, should have just killed it and moved on, instead wastes time, Shep comes along, and gains more knowledge in his quest. Ilos, Shep shows up, and instead of just killing him, they put pitiful ground forces in his way. instead of blowing up the conduit, they put more pitiful ground forces in his way. they literally go out of their way to lay down for Shep so he can stop them.

[SandTrout]

Saren did plan to 'grenade' the beacon on Eden Prime. Remember the nukes he had his Geth set? The Geth had wiped out all the resistance at the starport, and didn't expect anyone to be left alive to defuse them. They still left a small force 'just in case', unfortunately for them, Shepard's N7 trained.

If the bombs had gone off, all that anyone would have known about the Eden Prime incident would have been the transmission sent off by Ashley's squad that the Normandy received. Not a whole lot of information in that video. They didn't even know they were dealing with Geth at that point, let alone a rogue specter. More than likely the general assumption would have been that the Terminus pirates got their hands on some crazy Prothean tech.

All-in-all, the plan should have worked, but Shepard proved to be one hell of a monkey-wrench.

[GatMonkey]

Its simple really.



He was cocky.

[Elcirith]

Knoll Argonar wrote...

Saren HAD to use the beacon and then DESTROY it.

What would happen if the Council used the Beacon, understood its message and knew there was a threat called "reapers" that would destroy them? The cool thing about the Reapers is that noone knows about them until they're going to kill you.

So Sov had to get to the beacon before important people could use it. Guess what, Shepard used it, and in the end that stopped Sov and got him killed.

I think this perfectly explains Sovereign's actions. He found out the humans had obtained a beacon and in order to prevent them from finding out about the Reapers, he had to send Saren to get whatever information was inside and then destroy the beacon. Then Saren planted the bombs to ensure there would be no evidence who was there. However, Shepard foiled that plan and after that was able to implicate Saren and have his spectre status stripped. Now Sovereign had to find the Conduit so that Saren could make it onto the Citadel and open the gates for him.

[Kasces]

Vaenier wrote...

Kasces wrote...

There are various problems with this plan. The Collectors not being an army, a waste of resources, as far as we know the Collectors only started building a human Reaper after Sovereign failed so they weren't even reaping anything at the time (to make a Reaper atleast, which must take a long time). All this and Sovereign was getting agitated since he already failed twice.

Why would a 2km warship attempt such dragged out guerilla warfare when it can just suprise attack with it's MILLIONS of minions. Attacks weren't even phasing Sovereign himself. A suprise is more effective, which it was, and considering it would have worked if it were not for Shepard.

They had one chance to use it and the Geth left behind wouldn't destroy it as it is a piece of technology the Reapers can learn from.

 As far as the wonderful plan of nuking:
1) Nukes are utterly obsolete if you say nuke as in "why didn't they just blow crap up with the most powerful thing they got??"
2) Damage to enviroment
3) Shep can't just nuke whatever he wants. He has to get authroization, and I doubt the Council would give him that for stuff he could and DID do on the low (except Virmire, where Nuking would defeat the purpose of STOPPING a bomb)

The collectors not being an army is exactly why they should have used the Geth to help. The reasoning in ME2 makes it clear they were going to build it anyway, why not start now. If its worth doing, its worth over doing.

He just barely almost made it, before shep stepped in and screwed up his incredibly risky blitz. Again, if its worth doing, its worth overdoing.

Reapers learn how a mass relay works? ok...

.... wow... umm, I am talking about Saren/Sovreign.... instead of just getting it over with, the Geth try pitiful foot assaults with a handful of units at a time to kill a plant they knew exactly where it was. they care nothing about enviroment. they care nothing about authorization. nukes are never obsolete. [they are actually still more powerful than mass effect ****.] Shep comes along, kills the pitiful ground assault, and gains the knowledge of the Thorian, making him one step closer to Saren.

Rahni, again, should have just killed it and moved on, instead wastes time, Shep comes along, and gains more knowledge in his quest. Ilos, Shep shows up, and instead of just killing him, they put pitiful ground forces in his way. instead of blowing up the conduit, they put more pitiful ground forces in his way. they literally go out of their way to lay down for Shep so he can stop them.

I just don't understand that kind of tactic then. Especially since, at the end of the day, Sovereign failed. Now ontop of that the remnants of any Collectors who survived would be revealed instead of being a secret.

They were going to build anyway? Yes, as the Reapers always do after winning. With humans? Nah.

If it's worth doing, but is infact a risk, it's Not worth overdoing, with a capital N.  And the way the plot has gone, all this overdoing would have FAILED along with the regular doing so it would be pointless. The Reapers are smart enough not to waste resources and overdo it as in "Hell, why not?!" (not a personal attack against you, but what you suggest in and of itself just seems silly to me )

What I meant was they could learn exactly how the Protheans thwarted them with the Keeper signal, leaving intricate messages for the next genre and etc. since apparently it was unfixable. That way the could plan ahead and make sure it doesn't happen again (besides just being more thorough in their genocides)

I'm confused, I thought you were talking about why Shep didn't just nuke all his problems away. Why the Geth didn't? Well they only recently found out about Ilos. Why destroy a planet when you just got there? Needless destruction. The Rachni, if controlled, are an enormously valuable weapon so why nuke them? Plus Saren might have been hoping Shep would get himself killed. That was certainly what he was hoping for with the Thorian. He was wrong twice.

Modifié par Kasces, 25 décembre 2010 - 07:37 .

[SandTrout]

To be completely fair, Saren was looking for the conduit before his specter status was stripped. There is still a good tactical reason for this though. Even though Saren could probably get into citadel control to try to hold the Ward Arms open long enough for Sovereign to get through, the chances of him actually surviving long enough against the C-Sec response is negligible. Saren's a tough MF, for sure, but even Specters aren't invincible, so a couple of grenades and a C-Sec equivalent to a SWAT team would be able to take him down, allowing the Ward Arms to close and locking Sovereign out. Also, there may be multiple stations at which the Arms could be controlled from, so he would need backup to hit them simultaneously, meaning that he'd need a sizable force to strike rapidly before a proper response could be rallied. The conduit would be the only practical method of getting a Geth force the size that Saren needed onto the Presidium fast enough for the blitz to work.

As for why he didn't blow up the Conduit behind him, it's likely hat he didn't have time or means. Remember that Shepard was pretty hot on Saren's heels, so much so that Saren didn't get a chance to set up a proper ambush at the door to the bunker. Also, the Mass Relays are notoriously difficult to damage, and it's entirely likely that the Protheans used similar materials in their Conduit. Setting up the appropriate ordinance to destroy it would have taken time that they did not have to destroy the Conduit before Shepard followed Saren.